Try to outlaw firearms and folks will get creative

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If you outlaw something, someone will figure out a way to get their hands on it.

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The outlawing of firearms from the law abiding citizenry will not prevent criminals from getting arms through illegal means by either through a illegal black market or through illegal manufacturer.

Also if the law abiding citizen needs a means to defend him/her self from criminals/despotics government and is restricted from owning arms. Don't think that just because they can't have arms or have access to them that they can't make them.
 
Isn't this contradictionary? If they are law abiding citizens and the law says it is illegal to have fire arms and they start making them illegally then they aren't law abiding are they? And then the cops have an easy recognizing the bad guys. So everybody is happy. Let the professionals do their job and all criminal law breakers go to jail :)
 
Ted said:
Isn't this contradictionary? If they are law abiding citizens and the law says it is illegal to have fire arms and they start making them illegally then they aren't law abiding are they? And then the cops have an easy recognizing the bad guys. So everybody is happy. Let the professionals do their job and all criminal law breakers go to jail :)
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ssshhhhh logic will not help you in this argument.

:)
 
Logic, lets see…we put a kid in the military, teach him to use weapons, send him to war and have him kill people - then put him in jail at home for having a gun. Yep, that’s logic all right.

Among other evils that being unarmed brings you, it causes you to be despised. Niccolo Machiavelli
 
muscogeemike said:
Logic, lets see…we put a kid in the military, teach him to use weapons, send him to war and have him kill people - then put him in jail at home for having a gun. Yep, that’s logic all right.

Among other evils that being unarmed brings you, it causes you to be despised. Niccolo Machiavelli
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You clearly missed his point, which was.

If law abiding citizens make illegal guns at home they aren't law abiding citizens.

Lets be realistic no one is banning guns, in fact the big fear that Obama was planning to ban them fell flat when he relaxed rules on them in some areas, this is just another publicity stunt from a 2nd Amendment fanatic to keep it in the limelight and thus "relevant".

The reality is if anything should be illegal it is the unbelievably irresponsible move to show the general public how to make shoddy firearms that are probably more dangerous to the user than than the target.
 
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I think MontyB is pretty much on the money,

I made plenty of firearms prior to the Australian laws being changed, but being a law abiding citizen, I have not made any since. The penalties are far too great to take the risk. I admit that it wouldn't prevent someone who was a criminal anyway, but that was not what he was pointing out.
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And if you are wondering, I live in a state where the ownership of automatic weapons was not illegal, but their importation was, so the legal way around it was to make your own. I made dozens of them.
 
I have to agree, a person who violates the law is not law-abiding. But there is such a thing as an illegal law--which by definition would be any law that violates the rights specified in the Constitution--then law-abiding citizens have the right to ignore that law and abide by the highest law of the land, the Constitution.
In US history there have been numerous unjust laws that were changed or repealed as a result of civil disobedience.
In the military an officer or NCO cannot compel a serviceman to carry out an illegal order. In the civilian sector no governmental agency can compel its citizens to abide by an illegal law or regulation.
 
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But isn't it just a bit too simplistic to pin current law, and it's legality, to a 225 year old document? Which... has been changed regarding some topics. So if the people really wanted to change the constitution, they could. But too many people like to stick to their guns regardless of the yearly costs in human lifes.
 
Ted. it will never happen

To enact a law in America, both houses of Congress will have to agree and if a law is approved, you as a citizen can take it to court and get the law overturned because the individual citizen's rights have priority over the interests of any other citizen.

Put another way, you'd rather protect the rights of individuals rather than everyone's safety and welfare.
 
Well said Seehund. That is why I said: If they really want to change... But they don't! Too many of the American people love their guns, so there will never be a change. Regardless of the body count inflicted by these weapons....
 
Actually guys it takes a constitutional amendment to change the Constitution. Such an amendment must be passed by 2/3 vote of each house of congress and then be ratified by 3/4 of the 50 states individually. The Constitution has had exactly one amendment repealed in 225 years, the 18th which ushered in prohibition in 1919. It was repealed by the 21st amendment in 1933.

You have it EXACTLY right! In the US the rights of the INDIVIDUAL reign supreme. That's the way it was intended from the beginning. That is what Americans are so dedicated to preserving. You guys across the pond are obsessed with our guns, but you could substitute freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, freedom of speech or any other Constitutional right and you would find that we are just as "fanatical" about preserving those rights as well.

On average 30,000 people die from firearms every year in the US. Almost half from suicide. Approx. 16,500 people are killed with guns through accidents, actions of law enforcement in the prevention of crime and murders. There are 308,000,000 people in the US. Approximately 4.2 million people die in the US every year. Whether you calculate per capita gun deaths as a percentage of population or calculate homicides as a percentage of the yearly mortality rate the result is the same. Statistically negligible. BTW approx. 35,000 people die from cars in the US every year. So why the Eurpean fixation on American guns? (Stats from FBI uniform crime reporting, and the US census bureau)
 
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RealNavy said:
Actually guys it takes a constitutional amendment to change the Constitution. Such an amendment must be passed by 2/3 vote of each house of congress and then be ratified by 3/4 of the 50 states individually. The Constitution has had exactly one amendment repealed in 225 years, the 18th which ushered in prohibition in 1919. It was repealed by the 21st amendment in 1933.

You have it EXACTLY right! In the US the rights of the INDIVIDUAL reign supreme. That's the way it was intended from the beginning. That is what Americans are so dedicated to preserving. You guys across the pond are obsessed with our guns, but you could substitute freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, freedom of speech or any other Constitutional right and you would find that we are just as "fanatical" about preserving those rights as well.

On average 30,000 people die from firearms every year in the US. Almost half from suicide. Approx. 16,500 people are killed with guns through accidents, actions of law enforcement in the prevention of crime and murders. There are 308,000,000 people in the US. Approximately 4.2 million people die in the US every year. Whether you calculate per capita gun deaths as a percentage of population or calculate homicides as a percentage of the yearly mortality rate the result is the same. Statistically negligible. BTW approx. 35,000 people die from cars in the US every year. So why the Eurpean fixation on American guns? (Stats from FBI uniform crime reporting, and the US census bureau)
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Well now lets compare that to other nations....

Rank Countries Amount
# 1 South Africa:0.719782 per 1,000 people
# 2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people
# 3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people
# 4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
# 5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
# 6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
# 7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
# 8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
# 9 Uruguay: 0.0245902 per 1,000 people
# 10 Lithuania: 0.0230748 per 1,000 people
# 11 Slovakia: 0.021543 per 1,000 people
# 12 Czech Republic: 0.0207988 per 1,000 people
# 13 Estonia: 0.0157539 per 1,000 people
# 14 Latvia: 0.0131004 per 1,000 people
# 15 Macedonia: 0.0127139 per 1,000 people
# 16 Bulgaria: 0.00845638 per 1,000 people
# 17 Portugal: 0.00795003 per 1,000 people
# 18 Slovenia: 0.00596718 per 1,000 people
# 19 Switzerland: 0.00534117 per 1,000 people
# 20 Canada: 0.00502972 per 1,000 people
# 21 Germany: 0.00465844 per 1,000 people
# 22 Moldova: 0.00448934 per 1,000 people
# 23 Hungary: 0.00439692 per 1,000 people
# 24 Poland: 0.0043052 per 1,000 people
# 25 Ukraine: 0.00368109 per 1,000 people
# 26 Ireland: 0.00298805 per 1,000 people
# 27 Australia: 0.00293678 per 1,000 people
# 28 Denmark: 0.00257732 per 1,000 people
# 29 Spain: 0.0024045 per 1,000 people
# 30 Azerbaijan: 0.00227503 per 1,000 people
# 31 New Zealand: 0.00173482 per 1,000 people
# 32 United Kingdom: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita
 
I helped you.
MontyB said:
Well now lets compare that to other nations....

Rank Countries Amount
# 1 South Africa:0.719782 per 1,000 people
# 2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people
# 3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people
# 4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
# 5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
# 6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
# 7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
# 8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
# 9 Uruguay: 0.0245902 per 1,000 people
# 10 Lithuania: 0.0230748 per 1,000 people
# 11 Slovakia: 0.021543 per 1,000 people
# 12 Czech Republic: 0.0207988 per 1,000 people
# 13 Estonia: 0.0157539 per 1,000 people
# 14 Latvia: 0.0131004 per 1,000 people
# 15 Macedonia: 0.0127139 per 1,000 people
# 16 Bulgaria: 0.00845638 per 1,000 people
# 17 Portugal: 0.00795003 per 1,000 people
# 18 Slovenia: 0.00596718 per 1,000 people
# 19 Switzerland: 0.00534117 per 1,000 people
# 20 Canada: 0.00502972 per 1,000 people
# 21 Germany: 0.00465844 per 1,000 people
# 22 Moldova: 0.00448934 per 1,000 people
# 23 Hungary: 0.00439692 per 1,000 people
# 24 Poland: 0.0043052 per 1,000 people
# 25 Ukraine: 0.00368109 per 1,000 people
# 26 Ireland: 0.00298805 per 1,000 people
# 27 Australia: 0.00293678 per 1,000 people
# 28 Denmark: 0.00257732 per 1,000 people
# 29 Spain: 0.0024045 per 1,000 people
# 30 Azerbaijan: 0.00227503 per 1,000 people
# 31 New Zealand: 0.00173482 per 1,000 people
# 32 United Kingdom: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for making my case. 28/100ths percent? Statistically negligible. Our comparative ranking? Who cares. Now those crazy South Africans...
 
RealNavy said:
Thanks for making my case. 28/100ths percent? Statistically negligible. Our comparative ranking? Who cares. Now those crazy South Africans...
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Try telling that to the person who is the victim or their family.

I would say that attitude is typical of what is causing the problem.
As we say in Oz, "Ahh, fcukit,.... I'm alright Jack".

28/100ths percent is still 1 person in 400. I'd hate to think that in my small town we would lose 5 people a year to firearms.

The last firearm related deaths in this town were two suicides one about 2004, one in 1964, and a murder in 1962.
 
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RealNavy said:
Thanks for making my case. 28/100ths percent? Statistically negligible. Our comparative ranking? Who cares. Now those crazy South Africans...
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Then surely the argument that you need a gun to protect yourself is just as weak.
 
MontyB said:
Then surely the argument that you need a gun to protect yourself is just as weak.
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Monty, NZ doesn't need guns, is why you feel that way. You're on a small set of islands. I have a friend from the South Island that's a retired cop. He has said "If all else fails, let the Maori lose on the perps and problem 'disappears'. Just don't eat at their local barbie, mate!"
 
senojekips said:
Try telling that to the person who is the victim or their family.

I would say that attitude is typical of what is causing the problem.
As we say in Oz, "Ahh, fcukit,.... I'm alright Jack".

28/100ths percent is still 1 person in 400. I'd hate to think that in my small town we would lose 5 people a year to firearms.

The last firearm related deaths in this town were two suicides one about 2004, one in 1964, and a murder in 1962.
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Actually, 28/100ths of one out of a thousand is 2.8 people killed per 100,000. Or 1 for every 35,714 people.
 
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brinktk said:
Actually, 28/100ths of one out of a thousand is 2.8 people killed per 100,000. Or 1 for every 35,714 people.
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You are correct, but it's still no excuse for avoidable deaths especially if you are the one who is shot, or a family member.
 
Apologies for my poor math. I incorrectly equated fractions and decimals so my comparison was wrong.

Seno, my bad math led to your faulty estimate of 1 in 400 which would result in an annual gun death rate of 770,000, beyond wildly inaccurate. My fault.

Well, I found my calculator, so these numbers will be more accurate.

First I checked nationmaster's numbers. They are incredibly wrong. Per the website our yearly firearm death rate(?) (the page doesn't specify what the rankings rank, but we'll assume it is gun deaths) is 0.03 per 1000 ( I rounded the number UP.) This is not an appropriate method for calculating percent (literally, of 100) but we're grown ups, we can multiply by 10. So here we go.

0.03 is 3/100 expressed as a fraction. If nationmaster is to be believed that means that 3 out of every 100 Americans die by gun violence per year, multiply by 10 and that indicates that 30 out of 1000 of us die by the gun per year. Now extend that number to the 308,000 one thousands in 308,000,000 and it yields the amazing number of 9,240,000 gun deaths in America every year. WTF guys. Dreamland!!

The FBI reports 30,000 gun deaths per year on average. Of these 14,500 are suicides, 16,500 are accidents, justified shootings and homicides.

We are a huge country. We have half a dozen cities in the US with larger populations than New Zealand, the state of California has more than half again as many people as Australia.

Expressed as a percentage of the population of the US--308,000,000--our homicide rate is 0.000054 per year, way lower than Australia or New Zealand. Based on our yearly average overall death rate of 2,400,000 the homicide rate is 0.0069. Still larger than Australia and New Zealand, yes, about two times more that the former and about three and a half times more than the latter, but close to the same ballpark. Statistically speaking.

BTW I will continue to rely on FBI and US Census figures as more accurate than privately produced domestic or foreign figures. I hope this won't offend anyone.
 
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