Try to outlaw firearms and folks will get creative

Apologies for my poor math. I incorrectly equated fractions and decimals so my comparison was wrong.

Seno, my bad math led to your faulty estimate of 1 in 400 which would result in an annual gun death rate of 770,000, beyond wildly inaccurate. My fault.

The argument is not necessarily accurate, as long as they have used the same method in obtaining the stats for each nation then the rations remain correct.

Further to this we break down the figures to a per capita basis so the size of each country involve makes no difference as using 0.03 as the start figure I 9,240 per 308 million.

((((((0.03/1000)*100)*10)*100)*10)*308)=9,240

I have looked at the New Zealand figures and they are accurate based on several other sources.

And for the record you may want to go and check your math again
 
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Gun Lovers

Well said Seehund. That is why I said: If they really want to change... But they don't! Too many of the American people love their guns, so there will never be a change. Regardless of the body count inflicted by these weapons....

I, for one, do not love my guns. I love my sons, my dogs, I tolerate my cat, but I don’t love my guns. I may, however, be in love with my Bass Boat.
 
You are correct, but it's still no excuse for avoidable deaths especially if you are the one who is shot, or a family member.
You're assuming again that the only reason the death occured is the availability of guns. Murder, rape & robbery occured before guns existed & would continue if they ceased to exist. crimes would still happen just that instead of apx 12% of murders being done by someone with a gun, 100% would be done with other weopans, there's a good chance that the total number of murders, rape & robbery wouldn't drop much, & may increase with criminals being more confident of thier ability to overcome potential victims.
 
You're assuming again that the only reason the death occured is the availability of guns.
Not the only reason,... It was mainly because that is what the thread is about, and if firearms were not easily available, there would be much less firearm related crime.

This has been demonstrated by both the personal experiences of those on the forum who live in places where firearms are no packed in every box of cereal, and the supporting statistics.
 
Apologies for my poor math. I incorrectly equated fractions and decimals so my comparison was wrong.

The FBI reports 30,000 gun deaths per year on average. Of these 14,500 are suicides, 16,500 are accidents, justified shootings and homicides.

Eehh... if I am not mistaken 14,500 + 16,500 = 31,000. Not that is would alter this discussion much, just thought you might wanted to know :)
 
Lol, you are absolutly right :) On a grand scale of things.... it's like practically nothing.
 
Monty, NZ doesn't need guns, is why you feel that way. You're on a small set of islands. I have a friend from the South Island that's a retired cop. He has said "If all else fails, let the Maori lose on the perps and problem 'disappears'. Just don't eat at their local barbie, mate!"

The problem with your argument is that for approximately 25% of my life I lived in the USA (from Wisconsin to some of the seedier areas of Phoenix) and I did not have any need for one there either.

There seems to be a strong push to somehow make the USA out as "different", more "dangerous" than the rest of the world but the facts may be a little disappointing as I found living in America no different to living in New Zealand, Australia or Europe.

As for the South Island friend perhaps he also failed to mention that Maori make up about 50% (I think it was 49% and climbing in 1989) of our prison population while they barely make up 10% of the population so in a sizable number of cases they are the "perp" perhaps it is just because the complainant disappears.
 
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MontyB - out of interest, were your years in USA like this today? Particularly see the end article by Hugh Hunter, former British Vice-Consul in Florida:-


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-tourists-James-Cooper-James-gunned-down.html

If you are asking whether there were parts of cities I wouldn't go yes there was but there parts of the town I currently live in I wouldn't go.

Read the captions on those pictures, they are enough to point out the mistakes they made...

"The final picture: James Kouzaris also photographed on Saturday night shortly before he, too, was killed in the notorious district of Newtown."

"Best buddies: The two became friends after meeting at university. Police don't understand what they were doing in such a dangerous area at 3am."

"Murder scene: James Cooper and James Kouzaris were found dead on this one way street which is off the usual tourist trail"

Take a look at the pictures themselves, are they the sort of areas you would go as a tourist at 3am?

So yes there were area's of the USA were like that while I was there but I didn't realise that self and situational awareness were secrets, at the end of the day if you put yourself at risk then you pay the price of those mistakes.
 
I was not too interested in the report of the high profile murders hot off the press, where I take your point, but I was trying to steer you to Vice-Consul Hugh Hunter's take on the current situation; unfortunately you did not mention it, but it sounds like you feel nothing has changed.

I did not know how to seperate it technically from the rest of the link, so I compromised and gave you the whole lot.

Sounded like a place where a gun would be useful anyway, to be honest.

I'll butt out.
 
I was not too interested in the report of the high profile murders hot off the press, where I take your point, but I was trying to steer you to Vice-Consul Hugh Hunter's take on the current situation; unfortunately you did not mention it, but it sounds like you feel nothing has changed.

I did not know how to seperate it technically from the rest of the link, so I compromised and gave you the whole lot.

Sounded like a place where a gun would be useful anyway, to be honest.

I'll butt out.

I assume you mean this section...

Deadly side of the Sunshine State
By HUGH HUNTER

As a destination long favoured by British tourists, Florida conjures up a wealth of enticing images: sun-drenched beaches, long-drives along coastal highways with breathtaking views, magnificent theme parks such as Disneyland, and wonderful food to suit every budget.

But there is another Florida, a world away from this travellers’ paradise. The peninsula state also has a far darker, seamier, more violent side, where only naive or criminal visitors dare to tread.

The dangers of this environment were graphically exposed by the fatal shooting of two Britons. What has so perplexed the Florida police about this double murder is that few tourists visit the deprived neighbourhood where they were killed, particularly because there are no nightclubs or restaurants.

This tragic case shows just how risky it can be to stray into the wrong neighbourhood in Florida. That is certainly what I discovered during my spell between 1998 and 2006 as the British Consul in Orlando, one of the most popular places for visiting Britons.

Away from the all the luxury and glamour of the attractions and hotels, a gun-toting, drug-fuelled menace awaits where people live in abject deprivation on a scale unimaginable in Britain, with our generous welfare state and infrastructure of public services.

This desperate poverty and squalor has served as the breeding ground for serious, often lethal crime from young men who feel they have nothing to lose, in a society which has given them nothing. And it is precisely this sense of desperation which makes these neighbourhoods so dangerous for those outsiders unfortunate or foolish enough to enter them.

The United States has always been a land of extremes. The richest country in the world also contains some of the most shameful poverty in the West. The land of liberty also has the most draconian criminal justice regime of any developed country, reflected not only in the retention of the death penalty but also in the massive prison population.

And although a nation of immigrants which prides itself on being a melting pot, America is still riven by deep-seated ethnic divisions.

These extremes are carried to a heightened level in Florida. What always intrigued me about the state was that affluence and deprivation, crime and security could exist so closely beside each other. In Palm Beach, you can find properties worth around £30million, some belonging to celebrities such as Donald Trump and Tiger Woods.

The rich and famous here don’t just have one swimming pool attached to their mansions, they have two.
Yet within 20 miles you can find the most incredible poverty, either in squalid concrete jungles of housing estates or impoverished shanty towns.

The double murder of the two Britons is a case in point. They were, apparently, staying only 12 miles away from Sarasota in the attractive resort of Longboat Key, but the distance in safety and wealth was much greater. As I found, this disparity can occur even in a small area. Within one part of a Florida city, you could be walking down a street full of appealing shops and cafes.

Then suddenly, if you take a wrong turning, you find yourself on a bleak estate, filled with boarded-up properties and threatening graffiti.

Even in the most notorious areas of Latin America, such as inner-city Bogota in Colombia, you would struggle to find anything as bad. Similarly, you could be driving through the countryside and then come across a group of primitive huts, made of corrugated sheets or derelict caravans, resembling something that you might find in an African village. There would not even be running water, the inhabitants relying on a standpipe.

It is no surprise to find that Florida is therefore scarred by high rates of crime. In my experience, the state has fewer petty offences than urban Britain – binge drinking is much more rare, for instance. But the incidence of serious crime is much higher. It is telling that Britain has by far the largest prison population in Europe in proportion to its size, at a total of 85,000 inmates.

Yet 100,000 prisoners are held in the jails of Florida, even though the state’s 15million population is only a quarter of Britain’s. Murder, drugs, rape, and firearm offences are all much more common in Florida. Tourists are an obvious target for gangsters and opportunistic criminals. One of the most sinister crime waves I had to deal with as a diplomat involved British hotel guests attacked in their rooms by gunmen.

Not only did the thugs steal cash and personal possessions such as jewellery and passports, but they also sometimes locked the husband in the bathroom while they raped the wife.

I will never forget one case where two British pensioners in their seventies were attacked as they walked into their hotel room. The husband refused to go into the bathroom when ordered at gunpoint. Instead, he leapt at his assailant and, in a life-or-death-struggle, managed to disarm him, though he suffered a severe blow which cracked his skull.

It was a remarkable act of heroism and devotion to his wife, though the would-be rapist managed to escape. The pensioner told me afterwards at the consulate that he did not mind about the valuables, but when the robber threatened his spouse, he knew he had no alternative but to swing into action.

Hugh Hunter is the former British Vice-Consul in Florida, and author of Our Man In Orlando.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-Cooper-James-gunned-down.html#ixzz1K7ZYUaWp

If so I am not going to disagree with him but when I first visited Florida back in 1998 I got a list of things that would probably get me killed and going to areas that made Mogadishu look like a tourist resort were high up on that list and this advise holds true for almost every place I have visited in the world including my own country.

I can absolutely understand their belief that a weapon is needed for defence but the problem wont be solved by gunfire it can only be solved by some major social and economic changes within the communities involved.

What chance do you really think these guys would have had even if they were armed, they may have got a shot off but in the end they still would have ended up dead and there would be more weapons in the hands of killers.
 
If so I am not going to disagree with him but when I first visited Florida back in 1998 I got a list of things that would probably get me killed and going to areas that made Mogadishu look like a tourist resort were high up on that list and this advise holds true for almost every place I have visited in the world including my own country.
Can I talk you out of a copy of that list?
 
Can I talk you out of a copy of that list?

Actually it was a general tourist guide I found while in Wilmington, it gave recommendations about where to go and what not to do in various cities around the US.
It was general stuff that most people with half an IQ point do when in unfamiliar surrounds but during that time Florida (Miami in particular) was renown for carjacking murders.

So if you want it I would suggest trying a hotel in North Carolina, it should still be there as the South doesn't appear to have changed since 1875.
 
What chance do you really think these guys would have had even if they were armed, they may have got a shot off but in the end they still would have ended up dead and there would be more weapons in the hands of killers.

Thank you for the Hugh Hunter epistle, that indeed was what I referred to ; you are always the fair-minded gentleman in such matters, MontyB.

Re the above quote, I am not disagreeing with you, but, God Forbid, you ever found yourself in such an awful position, would you rather have some means of attempting to defend yourself? (Bearing in mind my previous paragraph, heh,heh.)

Perhaps such is unnecessary if you are a potential exploding grenade like myself.

As it happens I have travelled the world to some degree, safely, always manoeuvring carefully, like yourself.

'You gotta know when to hold 'em, you gotta know when to throw 'em, you gotta know when to walk away, you gotta know when to run.'


Edit : re your North Carolina hotel (reponse to Dusty) - I was there in late 20thc (wow, already history - see what I did there?) but that pamphlet was missing, but I did get the Plantation pamphlet. So I especially asked for it in 'South Of The Border' but all I got was a good chili.
 
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Thank you for the Hugh Hunter epistle, that indeed was what I referred to ; you are always the fair-minded gentleman in such matters, MontyB.

Re the above quote, I am not disagreeing with you, but, God Forbid, you ever found yourself in such an awful position, would you rather have some means of attempting to defend yourself? (Bearing in mind my previous paragraph, heh,heh.)

Perhaps such is unnecessary if you are a potential exploding grenade like myself.

As it happens I have travelled the world to some degree, safely, always manoeuvring carefully, like yourself.

'You gotta know when to hold 'em, you gotta know when to throw 'em, you gotta know when to walk away, you gotta know when to run.'


Edit : re your North Carolina hotel (reponse to Dusty) - I was there in late 20thc (wow, already history - see what I did there?) but that pamphlet was missing, but I did get the Plantation pamphlet. So I especially asked for it in 'South Of The Border' but all I got was a good chili.

I think it comes down to how you approach these issues, rather than having systems in place to be able to defend myself I would rather not be in a position where I need to defend myself.

I can tell you that the pamphlet/book was a travel guide that was in the lobby of the hotel (you know the area where they have the whats on in the region stuff), I kind of wish I had kept it as it had a really scathing write up on Chicago as well that I agreed with 100% having been there a few weeks earlier.
 
I can tell you that the pamphlet/book was a travel guide that was in the lobby of the hotel (you know the area where they have the whats on in the region stuff), I kind of wish I had kept it as it had a really scathing write up on Chicago as well that I agreed with 100% having been there a few weeks earlier.

Ah yes, that would be the Bates Motel. I didn't fancy it, either.
 
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