The true history of Taiwan. - Page 9




 
--
Boots
 
December 2nd, 2004  
Kane
 
Quote:
Is there a good website that shows the current technology PRC has in its military?
Current technology is not the concern here, it's future technology. Since the PLA is still in its developing stage, it's unpredictable how will the PLA's military power is projected. But in 2020, I have no doubt in my mind that PRC will be a major rival to the US in Asia.

However I do know some good sights such as www.globalsecurity.org however many of the information on China's military activities is few compared to other sites that primarily focusse on PLA. Just do a google search, simple. Or you can click Flyingfrog's link below his posts.
December 2nd, 2004  
Ezechiel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyca

1. Believe it or not, native Taiwanese people did not need KMT's words to know that they are different from the Chinese. KMT actually came in acting exactly like "occupiers", calling the local Taiwanese "Japanese slaves" or "slave people". Strip them of land, belongings, and forbade them from participating in politics. You should know that when the KMT came, native Taiwanese thought of them as saviors, to free them from the Japanese and to finally be treated equally and with respect. But in contrast, the corruption and the lack of respect only made them look worse. Native Taiwanese needed not to be taught that Chinese are different, they saw it with their own eyes. Can you understand at least WHY the native Taiwanese want to have a country of their own? Put aside your colored glass that Taiwan is part of China, at least know why before you flame the 'TI fellas'. TI is not a product of brainwashing, TI is a direction more and more Taiwanese want to take. And the fact that Taiwan was not legally recognized as a country = China owns Taiwan? If China was not so powerful, no one would even blink an eye if TI is declared now. Face it, it's the power you enjoy, not the legitimacy you claim so that Taiwan cannot become independent.

2. My grandfather was only half the story, my mother is from the native Taiwanese side. I don't consider myself pure Chinese but a 'mix'. Believing the same religion, speaking the same language, eating the same primary food, etc. show what influenced your culture. It does not, however, gives you the right to anyone else's land. Taiwanese want to do something 'unlawful' and 'disgrace'? We view Chinese' bullying action 'unreasonable' and 'barbaric'! Seriously, what will happen once China invades Taiwan and occupies it later? View the people on the island as traitors and less-pure? Disrespect the people for voicing their opinions that they want to be their own master?

3. What the Japanese did differed little from what the KMT did, and will probably differ little from what the PRC will do when they invade and occupy Taiwan. Are they going to let the native Taiwanese believe that they came very close to having their own country? Not a chance in h**l, they will burn and wipe out the trace. 1662, Zheng Ch'eng-kung loyalists came and fought the Dutch, took control of Taiwan, to do what? Do you know? History repeats itself, he (actually his son) did what the KMT did when it was fighting PRC, he used the resources on the island, thinking that he can reconquer China and re-establish Ming over Manchu. By looking at history, China will come and conquer the small island just like what Manchu did to Zheng. You want to talk developments? Come to Taiwan, pay a visit, look around and see for yourself. I won't lie but I don't pretend to know it all, seeing is believing.

4. Disgrace, what a strong word. Anything opposing your "great China" idea is a disgrace. Mongolia was probably a disgrace, Tibet is probably a disgrace too. Considering PRC has questionable rights to Taiwan, I wouldn't call native Taiwanese or myself calling them "occupiers" when they invade a disgrace. Hey, Taiwan has been a colony before, the Dutch merchants made Taiwan attractive to Japanese and Chinese alike, but the goal? Benefit from the island. 1662 Zheng and his loyalists took Taiwan, the goal? Re-conquer the mainland. 1895-1902 Japanese took Taiwan, the goal? Colonizing at first, turning everyone into Japanese later. 1945 KMT took Taiwan, the goal? Sack the resources to support KMT's forces in mainland to fight PRC. Why are they not occupiers? Now we are in 2004, PRC wanting to take Taiwan, the goal? What is it? Save the people? Help out developments in Taiwan? Re-unite the brothers and sisters whom you don't even know what they are like? Brainwashed? Who's brainwashed? Taiwanese people wanting TI, the goal? To be a disgrace? To annoy China? To look for trouble? No, we just want a land of our own, have our policies created by our people, have our leaders selected by popularity. What is so hard to understand?

5. Let me re-state your belief: KMT came over, had an "accident" shooting a civilian, which created "racial" uprising, and was later controlled "well". Hmm, where to begin. 228 incident, heard of it? I did an extensive research on it, it will take too long to describe everything. We can discuss this in another thread if you are interested. Let me just simply counter by saying no, the whole thing was triggered by an accident, but a racial uprising cannot be turned on by a mere accident. And no, it was not controlled well at all. KMT briefly lost the control of the island, and later a massacre took place similar to Nanking massacre done by the Japanese when KMT's supporting army landed. And no, KMT's true development did not start until they completely lost the war in mainland and was forced to retreat to Taiwan. Even then, the goal of schools, factories, everything, was for the preparation of re-conquering China. Before lifting the martial law, the KMT claimed to have over 500,000 great army stationed in Taiwan waiting to fight back. You will not develop a country well when your focus is only military, won't you agree?

Cairo Declaration reverts Taiwan's control to the ROC government under Chiang Kai-shek's KMT, it has nothing to do with PRC. ("Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and the Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China") Since this is not going to strengthen the case for PRC, I don't think we should even discuss it. I understand that ROC, PRC, Japanese, etc. all occupied Taiwan before, but that only means the occupiers changed. No one really thought for the native Taiwanese who did not know how to speak for themselves in the international world. Now, DPP has stepped up and changed the face of Taiwan. Visit Taipei under Chen, visit Kaoshiung under Hiseh, etc.

Btw, it's San Francisco. And I agree with you, education, media, newspaper, are all just tools. But you should read the textbooks I used when I studied in Taiwan. They desperately needed to be updated. Incorrect facts, misleading quotes, etc. It seems that you pay a lot of attention to the Taiwanese news, where do you get the information? If you read Chinese, I have a good compilation of list of Taiwanese media, I like to read all of them to get different opinions: http://www.chineseypage.com/web-news-tw.htm

Taiwan was there when recently a Japanese dude came out and claimed their textbooks of detailing too much of their atrocity. It was reported in one of the links up there I provided dated 11/29/2004 ( I believe, or 28, it's very recently).

By the way, Chinese mainland suffer greatly from frequent floods, Taiwan has aided China in monetary basis to a great amount. Based on your logic, Taiwan should not have helped becuase China is always bullying us around, right? Heck, I agree! Taiwanese government is rich, and the aid does not always please the people because WE wanted to benefit from the money, but that's besides the point. Taiwanese did handle 921, and did handle SARS on our own. Not to mention SARS broke out in China to begin with and was kept undercover by the government when prompt care could've prevented a wide-spread. 921 help was deterred by the Chinese government, Turkey aid plane was not allowed accross the Chinese territory to help, Red Cross from around the world was not allowed direct help until later. SARS? That's even worse. Go back and lookup "Who cares about you Taiwanese" in google or something. Find the spokesperson for PRC when Taiwan was requesting to join the WHO to jointly find a cure for SARS, as an OBSERVER. My point is exactly this, we can handle stuff on our own even when PRC is pulling our legs, so why wouldn't we think that we are independent? Why wouldn't we WANT to be independent? We are already independent, we just don't have the recognition. Why? Because China's got the fist. Anyone disagrees will get a punch in the face. Do you truly think that anyone CARES about one-China if not to please China?
1. Lack of understanding. I cannot blame Taiwanese think in that way. But u must remember, Japanese coz a great destruction over China. And many of the Chinese knew Taiwanese also joined the battle by standing on the Japanese side. Especially to the old soldiers who fought those Japanese. So when they went to Taiwan, they might have felt angry against Taiwanese. I don't believe KMT soldiers will be so unreasonable calling Taiwanese "slave". It's surely because Taiwanese helped Japanes ein the war (Ofcourse they were forced,but KMT soldiers did not know it, or considerate with this point). If this made u felt totally different from Chinese in mainland. I don't think it's a good reason. Becoz if today Japanese did not occupied Taiwanese, they might not have a conflict like this.

2. No need to answer, coz meaningless, Thick I answered in no.1

3. Ming Dynasty ruled Taiwan for about 20-30 years. Right about that moment the Chinese immigrant from Fujien to Taiwan. Ur ancestors r surely one of them. Since that Ming ruled Taiwan for this 20-30 years, surely Zheng Cheng Gong did not got Taiwan to make it a base to against Ch'ng, becoz Ch'ng havent come yet!

5. I know during the civil war KMT gathered resources from Taiwan to support to the military from. But proper developement had been deploy in year about 1945. Where they changed school's syllabus from Japanese to Chinese language. Also built some developemnt. Don't deny that. Also during the civil war, how can KMT give proper developement to taiwan? As many other province were as well having developing problem during the civil war. For I still never see any land being developed during civil war in the history. Be rasional please.

In Cairo 1943, The main thing of the story is the word "RESTORE". Do u know restore mr? Restore is to "GIVE BACK" RETURNBACK". U do not have any defend point on this declaration. Admit it , this is the whole weak point of the TI. Why give back? Becoz Taiwan was the territory of China cut to Japanese. If u say the whole definations comes from *ROC, then Manchuria and NOrtheast of China shall be return to the KMT also? So the mainthing of the debate over the ROC topic is simple, ROC is a name given by KMT. But basically the declaration is appointed to China. To a country, not political system. Don't misguide with it becoz u do not have defend about it.

The new textbook being set is also a very fake and lying tools. U try not to tello the 1943 declration more than sanfrancisco agreement obviously shows that Cairo declaration is a weak point. We call this good update? This is worse update.

I tell u, even if Taiwan is a colony. U still need to have recognization from China. U know why? Come over to Malaysia and other south east asia regions, INdia also can. I tell u all those Independence campaign also need to have agreement and recognization from England. U have it?

Taiwan have a independent political system is becoz Communist and KMT cannot have a mix. Independent political system don't make u a independent country. If u set a concept that independent political body = independent country, Wrong. Thing of it, what criteria makes an establishment of a country?

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U ask the quesiton that - if China do not have great fist, will Taiwan be treathen? I tell u u don't try to be pathetic. Becoz I can ask u back a question too ---- Today Communist have great fist becoz KMT lost, if CHina Communist lost in the civil war. KMT control Taiwan, will Taiwan still have posibility to claim independence?

When u see my qesutions, u see how joke is ur question.
December 2nd, 2004  
Zyca
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezechiel
1. Lack of understanding. I cannot blame Taiwanese think in that way. But u must remember, Japanese coz a great destruction over China. And many of the Chinese knew Taiwanese also joined the battle by standing on the Japanese side. Especially to the old soldiers who fought those Japanese. So when they went to Taiwan, they might have felt angry against Taiwanese. I don't believe KMT soldiers will be so unreasonable calling Taiwanese "slave". It's surely because Taiwanese helped Japanes ein the war (Ofcourse they were forced,but KMT soldiers did not know it, or considerate with this point). If this made u felt totally different from Chinese in mainland. I don't think it's a good reason. Becoz if today Japanese did not occupied Taiwanese, they might not have a conflict like this.

2. No need to answer, coz meaningless, Thick I answered in no.1

3. Ming Dynasty ruled Taiwan for about 20-30 years. Right about that moment the Chinese immigrant from Fujien to Taiwan. Ur ancestors r surely one of them. Since that Ming ruled Taiwan for this 20-30 years, surely Zheng Cheng Gong did not got Taiwan to make it a base to against Ch'ng, becoz Ch'ng havent come yet!

5. I know during the civil war KMT gathered resources from Taiwan to support to the military from. But proper developement had been deploy in year about 1945. Where they changed school's syllabus from Japanese to Chinese language. Also built some developemnt. Don't deny that. Also during the civil war, how can KMT give proper developement to taiwan? As many other province were as well having developing problem during the civil war. For I still never see any land being developed during civil war in the history. Be rasional please.

In Cairo 1943, The main thing of the story is the word "RESTORE". Do u know restore mr? Restore is to "GIVE BACK" RETURNBACK". U do not have any defend point on this declaration. Admit it , this is the whole weak point of the TI. Why give back? Becoz Taiwan was the territory of China cut to Japanese. If u say the whole definations comes from *ROC, then Manchuria and NOrtheast of China shall be return to the KMT also? So the mainthing of the debate over the ROC topic is simple, ROC is a name given by KMT. But basically the declaration is appointed to China. To a country, not political system. Don't misguide with it becoz u do not have defend about it.

The new textbook being set is also a very fake and lying tools. U try not to tello the 1943 declration more than sanfrancisco agreement obviously shows that Cairo declaration is a weak point. We call this good update? This is worse update.

I tell u, even if Taiwan is a colony. U still need to have recognization from China. U know why? Come over to Malaysia and other south east asia regions, INdia also can. I tell u all those Independence campaign also need to have agreement and recognization from England. U have it?

Taiwan have a independent political system is becoz Communist and KMT cannot have a mix. Independent political system don't make u a independent country. If u set a concept that independent political body = independent country, Wrong. Thing of it, what criteria makes an establishment of a country?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U ask the quesiton that - if China do not have great fist, will Taiwan be treathen? I tell u u don't try to be pathetic. Becoz I can ask u back a question too ---- Today Communist have great fist becoz KMT lost, if CHina Communist lost in the civil war. KMT control Taiwan, will Taiwan still have posibility to claim independence?

When u see my qesutions, u see how joke is ur question.
1. First, study some Taiwanese history. Japanese tried to turn everyone on the island into Japanese. They recruited native Taiwanese to join the Japanese to fight the mainland Chinese, and they taught all people in Taiwan to speak Japanese and act Japanese (because they wanted to turn them into Japanese). Did Taiwanese people have a choice when Manchu decided to give the island to Japan? Nope. Did they fight the Japanese, of course they did! That's why it took so long for the Japanese to fully claim control of the island. But in the end they lost, and Japanese took over. When KMT soliders occupied the island 50 years later, they found out that all the people there either speak Japanese or Taiwanese, dress in Japanese clothes, have Japanese culture. So they thought to themselves "jeez, these people are Japanese slaves". This is the truth, the history. There are elder people who are still alive from the age, and they'll tell you the story. And you're right, the mainland Chinese suffered from Japanese atrocity, so they hated Japanese to their guts. So once they landed, they cannot tolerate the Japanese-y acting Taiwanese. Don't refuse to believe this, think, if you just fought a war, where your friends and families died from your enemy, and now you go to a place where all of them act like your enemy, are you going to treat them nicely?

2. We can drop it if you feel it's irrelevant.

3. Either you are completely wrong, or the rest of the history books in the world are wrong. Dutch occupied Taiwan until 1662, check the facts. Also check your Chinese timeline, when did Manchu establish Ch'ing? 1644, right? So, Cheng's loyalists did not try to "anti-Ch'ing, re-establsih Ming"? And use Taiwan as a base? He arrived way later than Ch'ing, didn't he?

4. ?

5. Here is the deal, you must first understand the Taiwanese people before you make claims that KMT's developments were appropriate. A group of people, never having their choices, because either Dutch or Ming or Ch'ing or Japanese or KMT, and in the future perhaps PRC, occupied where they live with organized force. They were taught A when Japanese were here, and B when Chinese were here, etc. They never had a say in anything, because they are weak, they are disorganized, and they are slower to develop a system that could stand up to invaders. The land has changed many governing states, each with its intention to do what's best for ITSELF. I am not going to deny that KMT came and built something, heck I don't deny the Japanese had built something, etc. But for WHAT? That's right, for THEMSELVES, for THEIR GOALS, for THEIR BENEFITS. Now I agree it's hard when the war is going on, but for the years KMT ruled Taiwan long after the dust settled, the focus was still to build up military to reconquer China. What about the people? And you claim proper developments had been given in 1945. Here is an example: you go occupy someone's room, and find out that you need something and it's not there, you say to yourself, damn, I must go buy that thing. You buy it, hey, did you buy it for that someone who had long lived in the room? Did you "properly upgraded the room"? Yeah, for you you did.

The whole weak point of TI is that China is too powerful, that is all. People like you make it difficult because you don't live there but you agree with China and its "fake" and "lying" education "tools" too. Anything Taiwan does is wrong, anything China claims is like words from the bible for Christians. Attacking TI because of what you heard from China, like I said, is only a self-fulfilling prophecy. Understand Taiwan, knowing the people, knowing the place, knowing the situation, will help you so much more than narrow-minded believing that "oh this country says this so" or "oh that country claims it so". Besides, like I mentioned many times before, PRC has no rights to Taiwan whatsoever, no matter what declaration you look at. There's no weak point in facts, there's only weak point in ignorance. Ch'ing got ganged up by multiple countries, they all believed they were doing the right thing, who REALLY suffered? The people who LIVED in China.

And by the way, don't play the word games. No one will win. Understand everything from a simple way of life, all your points have been countered by people much smarter than both of us, just to give a few:
http://taup.yam.org.tw/1t1c/tp1tce01.html
http://www.wufi.org.tw/eng/timvmnt1.htm
http://www.taiwandc.org/hst-1624.htm

Yep, I am sure you read the new Taiwanese textbook, and the Chinese textbooks before you made the claims, right? I've personally read the old Taiwanese textbooks and they couldn't be more wrong. I think a change to those is good.

Let me ask you this simple question, are people happy in Malaysia being independent from England? Are you happy that you call yourself Malaysian, or Chinese, or are you disappointed that you can't claim yourself British?

Oh, we not only have independent political system. We have land, people, rules, army, etc. How about this, you tell me one thing that Taiwan is doing that DEPENDS on China? I bet you the most you can come up with is "mutually beneficial", nothing "dependent".

Er, hello, 1947? 228 Incident? Taiwanese did get control of the island for a week? Only to be defeated by KMT later? Who's to say that if things don't improve, the Taiwanese people wouldn't do it again? And what if KMT won and PRC took Taiwan, would they say, hey, we are part of ROC, you got the fist, unite me, even though people are living good lives and we established everything we need as a country? We will never know, will we? Why be so critical to Taiwan or TI without trying to understand the place and the situation?

I saw your questions, and I still don't see why my questions are irrational.
--
Boots
December 2nd, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
Well, every side can claim a lot of history stuff, it will turn to endless discussion, without result at all, but well, I am not against discussion.

The point is:
Taiwan was a Colony of Japan for some 40 years. Just a a colony ppl, not real japanese ppl.
Later Taiwan was returned to China after japans surrender in WW2.
Then after Chinese civil war, Nationalist Chinese Army fled to Taiwan, and hold the Republic of China (ROC) there upto today.

Actually, Mainland vs Taiwan is still in Civil War, neither side has said the Civil War has ended.
December 3rd, 2004  
Ezechiel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyca
1. First, study some Taiwanese history. Japanese tried to turn everyone on the island into Japanese. They recruited native Taiwanese to join the Japanese to fight the mainland Chinese, and they taught all people in Taiwan to speak Japanese and act Japanese (because they wanted to turn them into Japanese). Did Taiwanese people have a choice when Manchu decided to give the island to Japan? Nope. Did they fight the Japanese, of course they did! That's why it took so long for the Japanese to fully claim control of the island. But in the end they lost, and Japanese took over. When KMT soliders occupied the island 50 years later, they found out that all the people there either speak Japanese or Taiwanese, dress in Japanese clothes, have Japanese culture. So they thought to themselves "jeez, these people are Japanese slaves". This is the truth, the history. There are elder people who are still alive from the age, and they'll tell you the story. And you're right, the mainland Chinese suffered from Japanese atrocity, so they hated Japanese to their guts. So once they landed, they cannot tolerate the Japanese-y acting Taiwanese. Don't refuse to believe this, think, if you just fought a war, where your friends and families died from your enemy, and now you go to a place where all of them act like your enemy, are you going to treat them nicely?

2. We can drop it if you feel it's irrelevant.

3. Either you are completely wrong, or the rest of the history books in the world are wrong. Dutch occupied Taiwan until 1662, check the facts. Also check your Chinese timeline, when did Manchu establish Ch'ing? 1644, right? So, Cheng's loyalists did not try to "anti-Ch'ing, re-establsih Ming"? And use Taiwan as a base? He arrived way later than Ch'ing, didn't he?

4. ?

5. Here is the deal, you must first understand the Taiwanese people before you make claims that KMT's developments were appropriate. A group of people, never having their choices, because either Dutch or Ming or Ch'ing or Japanese or KMT, and in the future perhaps PRC, occupied where they live with organized force. They were taught A when Japanese were here, and B when Chinese were here, etc. They never had a say in anything, because they are weak, they are disorganized, and they are slower to develop a system that could stand up to invaders. The land has changed many governing states, each with its intention to do what's best for ITSELF. I am not going to deny that KMT came and built something, heck I don't deny the Japanese had built something, etc. But for WHAT? That's right, for THEMSELVES, for THEIR GOALS, for THEIR BENEFITS. Now I agree it's hard when the war is going on, but for the years KMT ruled Taiwan long after the dust settled, the focus was still to build up military to reconquer China. What about the people? And you claim proper developments had been given in 1945. Here is an example: you go occupy someone's room, and find out that you need something and it's not there, you say to yourself, damn, I must go buy that thing. You buy it, hey, did you buy it for that someone who had long lived in the room? Did you "properly upgraded the room"? Yeah, for you you did.

The whole weak point of TI is that China is too powerful, that is all. People like you make it difficult because you don't live there but you agree with China and its "fake" and "lying" education "tools" too. Anything Taiwan does is wrong, anything China claims is like words from the bible for Christians. Attacking TI because of what you heard from China, like I said, is only a self-fulfilling prophecy. Understand Taiwan, knowing the people, knowing the place, knowing the situation, will help you so much more than narrow-minded believing that "oh this country says this so" or "oh that country claims it so". Besides, like I mentioned many times before, PRC has no rights to Taiwan whatsoever, no matter what declaration you look at. There's no weak point in facts, there's only weak point in ignorance. Ch'ing got ganged up by multiple countries, they all believed they were doing the right thing, who REALLY suffered? The people who LIVED in China.

And by the way, don't play the word games. No one will win. Understand everything from a simple way of life, all your points have been countered by people much smarter than both of us, just to give a few:
http://taup.yam.org.tw/1t1c/tp1tce01.html
http://www.wufi.org.tw/eng/timvmnt1.htm
http://www.taiwandc.org/hst-1624.htm

Yep, I am sure you read the new Taiwanese textbook, and the Chinese textbooks before you made the claims, right? I've personally read the old Taiwanese textbooks and they couldn't be more wrong. I think a change to those is good.

Let me ask you this simple question, are people happy in Malaysia being independent from England? Are you happy that you call yourself Malaysian, or Chinese, or are you disappointed that you can't claim yourself British?

Oh, we not only have independent political system. We have land, people, rules, army, etc. How about this, you tell me one thing that Taiwan is doing that DEPENDS on China? I bet you the most you can come up with is "mutually beneficial", nothing "dependent".

Er, hello, 1947? 228 Incident? Taiwanese did get control of the island for a week? Only to be defeated by KMT later? Who's to say that if things don't improve, the Taiwanese people wouldn't do it again? And what if KMT won and PRC took Taiwan, would they say, hey, we are part of ROC, you got the fist, unite me, even though people are living good lives and we established everything we need as a country? We will never know, will we? Why be so critical to Taiwan or TI without trying to understand the place and the situation?

I saw your questions, and I still don't see why my questions are irrational.
4 is something like 5, I answer u in 5.

1. Yes! This is what I am telling u! I did not blame Taiwanese and u cannoe blame KMT soldiers as well. Those rasial conflicts today were actually caused by the Japanese "turning Taiwanese in to Japanese slave" act. So when KMT landed, they cannot tolerate with this! that's why they were angry. Buty this doesn't means that Taiwanese and Chinese can be different! Soldiers r uneducated from the knowledges that Taiwanese and Chinese r same or blablablabla. So if u try to use "KMT soldiers don't take Taiwanese as a part of Chinese" to claim IT, this is not right. Because those soldiers were uneducated from this kind of knowledges. Morever Taiwanese were acting like Japanese.

During the year when Taiwan restored back to China. Knowledgable group form China came and being responsible to change Taiwanese back into Chinese cultur, for they should have been like this. U can't deny this! KMT were trying all effort to make Taiwanese feel they were still the same family, which was broken by Japanese. But u only see in the bad way that, "KMT soldiers who r not really knowledgable about this take Taiwanese different from Chinese", but do u ever see in a good way that KMT also sent a lot of Knowledgable and educated people to make Taiwanese back to be Chinese in one family?

2. Sorry it was my wrong typing. Beocz I thought I answered u in no.1 in previous post. Wateva..........

3. Ya I think I am wrong. But for one thing I can ask u. When was it happen to the greatest/major immigrations of Taiwanese from Fujien province in the history? Zheng Cheng Gong period. Before Zheng Cheng Gong I don't think ur ancestor ever reach the land of Taiwan yet(Even urs were not,but many others ancestors were, including many TI campaigners. Becoz majority of the Taiawanese population come from there at Zheng Cheng Gong's period). So u do not have power to say so becoz most of the Taiwanese natives today immigrant from Fujien province after Zheng Cheng Gong came. It was Zheng Cheng Gong who develope Taiwan and encourage the immigrants of the population of Fujien to Taiwan.


5. Please never talk like u r differrent etnic from Chinese. What "choice" or no "choice". I don't think during the old history of that time Taiwanese felt they were different from Chinese. When did Taiwanese started to felt they r different from Chinese? Just when after Japanese came over and cause the "culture-turning act", and Chinese came and caused conflict. This is when the Taiwanese started to say they r different. So since before Japanese ever take control, did Taiwanese ever against and debate and fought that they were not Chinese? NO!!!

Wrong, I admit that today China great fist threaten Taiwan. But base on the reasonable knowledge and learning. Taiwan always belongs to China. Base on Cairo declarations. Today Taiwanese independent political body can be consider as a Illegal body, but nobody can do much thing with that becoz today's world cannot use military to solve things. So they just let Taiwan live there and shut up. The most they can do was stop diplomatic relationship with Taiwan.

Yes maybe u say u Taiwanese textbook need update. BUt it needs a good update, not a new update which also gives lie to u all. U did not answer the Cairo declaration properly. So I can see this is the weak point of the whole TI. This is fact, face it.

Those things u say comes from an independent political body. Who brought formal soldiers and military to Taiwan? KMT, the bunch of armies u hate the most were the the military defends of Taiwan. U r contradict to urself man. U try to say u have independent military, but those military were from KMT. On the other hand u also dislike KMT because the armies did bad things in Taiwan. hahaha, u see ur contradict point? Land, people and military were all originally belongs to China. Only the difference of pol;itcal body change it all. What things can u fight for, my friend?

Malaysia land already had it's own King and political since before the coming of western imperialist. Did Taiwanese have politcal system BEFORE China came? no. The time when ur ancestors came to Taiwan they said they were Chinese and they never have political system and they admit that they r under China. But for Malaysia case, our people already different from English,Dutch,Portugese etnic. Secondly, nobody in Taiwan at that time think China set a colony control over Taiwan, it's proper. Taiwan was under Fujien province during ancient time. What about Malaysia? IT'S A COLONY UNDER ENGLAND, NOT APART OF PROVINCE OR TAKEN AS A PROPER TERRITORY OR SOMETHING.

The reason I tell out this colony case is I want to tell u that even colony needs law and agreement to have independence. What about u Taiwanese then(For Taiwan is not the colony for China in the history)?

Nono, u misunderstanding my questions. I want to ask u that, If in the past it did not blew up a civil war in China as KMT was still the government, Taiwan have posibilities to be separated? NO! What makes Taiwanese felt they were separated? because KMT lost and built a political system in Taiwan. Without this political system Taiwan do not have chance to claim independence, and the people will also not feeling so different from the Chinese.

For my question in the paragraph, ur IF-style asking that "if communist don't have great fist will Taiwan not be a independent country?" is totally meaningless.

U just ignoring my questions, not u will nothing.
December 3rd, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Consider something: Taiwan was made an actual province very shortly before the Manchus lost Taiwan. It was a desperation move to try to keep it. ROC recognized it as an official province, but they was beaten by the Communists. So consider something: there is very, very little time that Taiwan has spent as a province of China -- less than 10 years in the 1800's and from 1945-1948. 13 years maximum being treated as an equal -- an actual province that is. Consider that they have been a means to an end or a colony for the rest of their existence (when they weren't their own thing) and I can't blame them for wanting to be their own thing.
December 3rd, 2004  
Ezechiel
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Consider something: Taiwan was made an actual province very shortly before the Manchus lost Taiwan. It was a desperation move to try to keep it. ROC recognized it as an official province, but they was beaten by the Communists. So consider something: there is very, very little time that Taiwan has spent as a province of China -- less than 10 years in the 1800's and from 1945-1948. 13 years maximum being treated as an equal -- an actual province that is. Consider that they have been a means to an end or a colony for the rest of their existence (when they weren't their own thing) and I can't blame them for wanting to be their own thing.
During the old dynasty period Taiwan were under the Fujien province. It's consider as China territory by that. Until when the end of WW II, Taiwan were changed to become a province.
December 3rd, 2004  
Zyca
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezechiel
4 is something like 5, I answer u in 5.

1. Yes! This is what I am telling u! I did not blame Taiwanese and u cannoe blame KMT soldiers as well. Those rasial conflicts today were actually caused by the Japanese "turning Taiwanese in to Japanese slave" act. So when KMT landed, they cannot tolerate with this! that's why they were angry. Buty this doesn't means that Taiwanese and Chinese can be different! Soldiers r uneducated from the knowledges that Taiwanese and Chinese r same or blablablabla. So if u try to use "KMT soldiers don't take Taiwanese as a part of Chinese" to claim IT, this is not right. Because those soldiers were uneducated from this kind of knowledges. Morever Taiwanese were acting like Japanese.

During the year when Taiwan restored back to China. Knowledgable group form China came and being responsible to change Taiwanese back into Chinese cultur, for they should have been like this. U can't deny this! KMT were trying all effort to make Taiwanese feel they were still the same family, which was broken by Japanese. But u only see in the bad way that, "KMT soldiers who r not really knowledgable about this take Taiwanese different from Chinese", but do u ever see in a good way that KMT also sent a lot of Knowledgable and educated people to make Taiwanese back to be Chinese in one family?

2. Sorry it was my wrong typing. Beocz I thought I answered u in no.1 in previous post. Wateva..........

3. Ya I think I am wrong. But for one thing I can ask u. When was it happen to the greatest/major immigrations of Taiwanese from Fujien province in the history? Zheng Cheng Gong period. Before Zheng Cheng Gong I don't think ur ancestor ever reach the land of Taiwan yet(Even urs were not,but many others ancestors were, including many TI campaigners. Becoz majority of the Taiawanese population come from there at Zheng Cheng Gong's period). So u do not have power to say so becoz most of the Taiwanese natives today immigrant from Fujien province after Zheng Cheng Gong came. It was Zheng Cheng Gong who develope Taiwan and encourage the immigrants of the population of Fujien to Taiwan.


5. Please never talk like u r differrent etnic from Chinese. What "choice" or no "choice". I don't think during the old history of that time Taiwanese felt they were different from Chinese. When did Taiwanese started to felt they r different from Chinese? Just when after Japanese came over and cause the "culture-turning act", and Chinese came and caused conflict. This is when the Taiwanese started to say they r different. So since before Japanese ever take control, did Taiwanese ever against and debate and fought that they were not Chinese? NO!!!

Wrong, I admit that today China great fist threaten Taiwan. But base on the reasonable knowledge and learning. Taiwan always belongs to China. Base on Cairo declarations. Today Taiwanese independent political body can be consider as a Illegal body, but nobody can do much thing with that becoz today's world cannot use military to solve things. So they just let Taiwan live there and shut up. The most they can do was stop diplomatic relationship with Taiwan.

Yes maybe u say u Taiwanese textbook need update. BUt it needs a good update, not a new update which also gives lie to u all. U did not answer the Cairo declaration properly. So I can see this is the weak point of the whole TI. This is fact, face it.

Those things u say comes from an independent political body. Who brought formal soldiers and military to Taiwan? KMT, the bunch of armies u hate the most were the the military defends of Taiwan. U r contradict to urself man. U try to say u have independent military, but those military were from KMT. On the other hand u also dislike KMT because the armies did bad things in Taiwan. hahaha, u see ur contradict point? Land, people and military were all originally belongs to China. Only the difference of pol;itcal body change it all. What things can u fight for, my friend?

Malaysia land already had it's own King and political since before the coming of western imperialist. Did Taiwanese have politcal system BEFORE China came? no. The time when ur ancestors came to Taiwan they said they were Chinese and they never have political system and they admit that they r under China. But for Malaysia case, our people already different from English,Dutch,Portugese etnic. Secondly, nobody in Taiwan at that time think China set a colony control over Taiwan, it's proper. Taiwan was under Fujien province during ancient time. What about Malaysia? IT'S A COLONY UNDER ENGLAND, NOT APART OF PROVINCE OR TAKEN AS A PROPER TERRITORY OR SOMETHING.

The reason I tell out this colony case is I want to tell u that even colony needs law and agreement to have independence. What about u Taiwanese then(For Taiwan is not the colony for China in the history)?

Nono, u misunderstanding my questions. I want to ask u that, If in the past it did not blew up a civil war in China as KMT was still the government, Taiwan have posibilities to be separated? NO! What makes Taiwanese felt they were separated? because KMT lost and built a political system in Taiwan. Without this political system Taiwan do not have chance to claim independence, and the people will also not feeling so different from the Chinese.

For my question in the paragraph, ur IF-style asking that "if communist don't have great fist will Taiwan not be a independent country?" is totally meaningless.

U just ignoring my questions, not u will nothing.
1. Don't blame everything on the Japanese, it's denial. Taiwanese want what we want because of many issues. We are not going for TI because KMT soldiers mistreated us, or Japanese mistreated us, or whatever. We want TI to prevent the same things from happening ever again, because there is a new concept of global community now. And Taiwanese and Chinese ARE different. Different social experiences, different culture influences, different believes, etc. We don't need a reason to be different from the Chinese, we are different.

"During the year when Taiwan restored back to China. Knowledgable group form China came and being responsible to change Taiwanese back into Chinese cultur, for they should have been like this. U can't deny this!" I am glad you brought this up, now tell me, how did this differ from what the Japanese tried to do? I didn't see "in a good way that KMT also sent a lot of Knowledgable and educated people to make Taiwanese back to be Chinese in one family?" What I see is, "we got Taiwan, people there don't act or talk like us, let's change them!". Nothing wrong with thinking that way, but please don't glorify the motive. Everything you're arguing is based off of "Chinese is superior", have you noticed? Be like Chinese is good! Don't be like Chinese is, how can you not be like Chinese, you ARE Chinese, you have to be! Right? We are not bashing Chinese for being like Chinese, but we just want our own identity to be known.

3. "It was Zheng Cheng Gong who develope Taiwan and encourage the immigrants of the population of Fujien to Taiwan." -- Wrong. Fujian was the last mainland province to fall into Ch'ing's hands. Cheng's loyalists were forced out, pretty much like how CKS and his KMT forced were forced out. Not that he "encourged immigrations and developments", he was forced to. Besides, study a little more, what gender were most of his people? That's right, male. You think a bunch of males could have kids? Taiwanese and Chineses intermarriage were common, so Taiwanese do share some bloodlines with the Chinese, but to say Taiwanese are all Chinese or most of them are is incorrect. Look at the CIA profile now, Taiwanese (including Hakka) 84%, mainland Chinese 14%, aborigine 2%. It's recognized that mainland Chinese is a minority group in Taiwan.

5. No, there you go blaming the Japanese again. Who mentioned "三年一小反, 五年一大亂"? ("a minor uprising once every three years and a major one once every five years.") Taiwanese have historically clashed with the occupiers ever since the arrival of the Portuguese. Japanese did some sickening things during WWII, they've wronged the Chinese, Koreans, and Taiwanese and the entire human race, but like I said before, they are not the reason Taiwanese want to be Taiwanese. And I mentioned before, Taiwanese carry bloodlines from the Chinese, but we are definitely not pure Chinese. We are, at best, hybrids. Japanese and Koreans carry Chinese bloodlines too, right?

"But base on the reasonable knowledge and learning. Taiwan always belongs to China." I think this is a question, not a conclusion. From what I learned, Taiwan was never a part of China until the Ch'ing dynasty. In the Chronicle of Yung-cheng of the Ching Dynasty (Yung-cheng Shih Lu), it recorded an imperial paper of 1722 stating that, "Taiwan, historically not part of China, was conquered and became Ch'ing's territory under the great power of Kang-hsi." So starting from there, then, Ch'ing cut Taiwan to give it to Japan, so, "officially", Taiwan belonged to Japan. Then, after WWII, Taiwan was returned to the ROC. Where is PRC in this? Why did you say "U did not answer the Cairo declaration properly. So I can see this is the weak point of the whole TI. This is fact, face it."?

I think the textbook issue needs to be put on hold. Neither you or I have read the new ones. If the textbooks are upgraded from old lies to new lies, then I am on the same page with you, and I pity the Taiwanese kids for not having the opportunity to see the facts. I do, however, think that since Taiwan does have a strong opposing party that is very critical, the textbooks will turn out alright. We'll just have to wait and see about this.

No, I didn't contradict myself. Taiwan's army now is commanded by the president, regardless of his party. The military belongs to the country, not any party. KMT brought soldiers from the mainland to fight against the PRC, but throughout the years have been replaced by the newblood (you don't expect them to be able to fight anymore, do you?). The veterans are actually becoming a big problem in Taiwan. Most of them end up never marrying anyone and have no children, so the elderly veterans are going through a tough late-life crisis now. They are the orphans of Taiwan and I do feel bad for them. Anyway. When they fought the PRC, they moved to Taiwan to defend themselves, not Taiwan. Don't be confused. Without them, PRC would have won a complete civil war, but that does not mean, in any shape or form, that the Taiwanese people were protected. You need to look at the history and ask yourself, hmm, why was there a 228 Incident? Why was there "White Terror" afterwards? The army protected themselves and their regime, both against the people on the island and accross the strait. Now I am not going to argue that without them, PRC would have control over Taiwan right now. Will Taiwan be in peace now? I doubt it.

"Land, people and military were all originally belongs to China." There you go confusing questions with conclusions again. And it's no longer KMT's army, it's Taiwan's army. This has gone too long and may have become too confusing to understand, let me summarize my points: KMT troops came over to protect the KMT regime, against both people on the island and accross the strait. Throughout the year, the army has changed from belonging to a party to belonging to Taiwan. There's no contradiction here.

Yes, I realize the differences from a political standpoint. But you didn't answer my question at all (and I wasn't asking why Taiwan can't be like Malaysia). Are you happy about having a country of your own? Taiwanese know they are different from the Chinese just like you know you are different from the British, you have your King and your system, etc. England came over and colonized the land. Put aside all the politics, are you happy about Malaysia being independent from England?

"I want to ask u that, If in the past it did not blew up a civil war in China as KMT was still the government, Taiwan have posibilities to be separated?" I agree with you, we probably not. But "and the people will also not feeling so different from the Chinese." is wrong. We always knew we were different. Perhaps by using education as a tool you can slowly wipe that away, but KMT did try that in Taiwan and it didn't work. It's not a political system driving everyone's belief. I did mention that KMT tried to brainwash the "one-China, we are the rightful owner" idea into every kid in Taiwan back in the 70s, right?

"For my question in the paragraph, ur IF-style asking that "if communist don't have great fist will Taiwan not be a independent country?" is totally meaningless. " I agree it's meaningless, just like the scenario where if KMT won the war against PRC -- they are all meaningless. PRC is strong, and imaginary scenarios are not going to help anything, correct?

If I ignored your questions, I apologize, I tried my best to answer the questions you have here this time.
December 4th, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
The useful aspect of asking the question, "If China and Taiwan were equally powerful militarily, what would the situation be??" is actually quite simple. The fact that TI is not a good idea is based on the fact that TI leads to a bloody massacre they cannot possibly win, not an idealogical right or wrong. The useful thing: Would the PRC be committed enough to the cause if they didn't know that victory was certain at all?? Would they still be willing to fight a war over the Taiwan question if it were a war they might lose?? The useful test is to determine how "right" China feels it is. Since the PRC is screaming that they are absolutely right, its a useful "what if?" scenario.

Consider the American Civil War as an example. The two sides were releatively equally matched. The war happened anyways because both sides truly believed in their cause. They believed even though victory was not certain. Its pretty easy to be self-righteous about Taiwan when you know you'll win. Does your viewpoint change if you might lose??

The point has been stated more than once that China invades and takes over because it CAN, not because its necessarly the right thing to do. So the hypothetical situation is useful for answering how right China thinks it truly is about Taiwan.
December 4th, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
godofthunder9010:

I believe you do know the Chinese Civil War: CCP troops vs KMT troops.

How powerfull the KMT troops were, yet completed destroyed by the Communist Red Army. This is a great example how a Smaller and Weaker army defeats a Larger and Stronger army (backed by the entire government).

Back to PRC cs Taiwan:
Not only "rightfull" is, but also "strong", therefore, definitely would WIN, no doubt. So, TI is just a daydream.