The true history of Taiwan. - Page 8




 
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Boots
 
December 1st, 2004  
Kane
 
No, the Bush Administration does not recognize Taiwan as an independent nation.
December 1st, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane
No, the Bush Administration does not recognize Taiwan as an independent nation.
Yeah I believe so.

But then why Taiwan still wants to do a "Formal" independence then? Sounds crazy to me, they are already indepedently ruling themselves
December 2nd, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFrog
Zyca:

CSB = Chen ShuiBian.

Do you think Taiwan will get recognition from other countries (I mean most countries, ALL major countries) even if Taiwan declared independence?

Or put it simple, will USA recognize it?
I know you didn't ask me, but here goes anyway. The reason no nation currently recognizes Taiwan is for 3 reasons.
1.) Currently, Taiwan is still officially claiming to be the true government of ALL of China (as the ROC). They have never made any claim nor approved any motion for establishing themselves as an independent nation. Because we have 2 governments claiming control over all of China, the nations of the world have to pick one. The PRC is the more obvious choice.
2.) Taiwan has yet to ask for recognition as an independent nation.
3.) If anybody did recognize Taiwan under current circumstances, it would disagree with Taiwan's current official definition of itself. They don't recognize themselves as a separate nation, so some other country recognizing that would be premature. More importantly, the PRC would throw fits about it if anybody recognized them as independent.

IF Taiwan declared Independence and (by some miracle) was not raped by the mainland as a result, then the world would be confronted with the need to decide whether to recognize Taiwan or not. Most of the world only has one reason not to at that point -- keeping China happy.

Quite a mess of trouble for "officially" acknowledging what already exists, don't you think?? (Taiwan is 100% self-governed and for all intents and purposes, its already an independent nation.)
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Boots
December 2nd, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
Yes it is already independent in fact, but not in name.

It is like this:
A man and a woman, live together like a couple, never officially got married, so they are in fact a "couple", but legally they are not.

In case TI succeeded, then all major countries will follow USA's action:
Recognize Taiwan (Repulic of Taiwan or watsoever), or not.
PRC's stance: if you recognize ROT, then I break out diplomatic relation with USA.

Now, your choice, as you stated too, USA will maintain DR with PRC, so not recognize ROT. Again it is the nature rule: Bigger One Wins.

Oh yeah, your opinion is always appreciated.
December 2nd, 2004  
godofthunder9010
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFrog
It is like this:
A man and a woman, live together like a couple, never officially got married, so they are in fact a "couple", but legally they are not.
The only problem I'm seeing with that annalogy is this: it doesn't cover the fact that the "couple" hasn't been "living in the same house" for close to 60 years now. And for simplicity sake, their still officially married (based on the official positons of the ROC and PRC).

Its a messy situation, no getting around that. The #1 looming factor is, "What will the People's Republic of China do if ...." I hope for a good solution, but its a hard situation to find a good solution for.
December 2nd, 2004  
Zyca
 
 
All countries around the world are for themselves, it's the nature of everybody. No one officially recognizes Taiwan, but think of it from another angle: do countries do trade with Taiwan go through China? Do they apply for Chinese visa or Taiwanese visa? Do they obey the agreements with China or with Taiwan? You'd think when they recognize Taiwan as part of China, they'd go through China, right? But they don't. They realize that Taiwan has its policy and its system, but they don't want to anger the big brother with the fist there, yet they want to interact with Taiwan. So what they do is they orally say they support one China, while in action they do things that recognize Taiwan's sovereignty. Taiwan will not get the recognition officially becuase China does not allow it, but in every way, with any country, Taiwan is considered independent. It sounds contradicting, but China is not some country to be messed with, and Taiwanese know it. It's sad for Taiwanese really: We are doing everything as an independent country, but we are not recognized for those things.
December 2nd, 2004  
MadeInChina
 
taiwan independence:
1) war from china
2) as ppl already mentioned, taiwanese<_> trade will collaspe: thouhg unhealthy for china, china gets to keep the factoires and goodies already built, who needs the capital when these already-built factories could be sold for profits
3) formally and dipolamatically, the international world will not reconize taiwan except for some measily small countrie+ panama.
4)mostly likely a naval blockade will cut off taiwans trade and commerence: but there will be little trade anyways since most countries fear china's powers and does not like to tip favor for the taiwanese
5) china will take air supoirircy over taiwan( sry for the spelling), in which air commerence will breakdown
6) taiwan has more mouths to feed than the amount of foo dit could support in its own gardens, thereby china could gain by selling food to the taiwanese with a complete blockade ( if the independent government is good to the people, they will buy the food, if they are tyrants, they would not buy the food)



i dont think taiwan wants to choose independence

rather, joing with china or fear this!!!!!
December 2nd, 2004  
antimili
 
Taiwan should probably make improving relations across the Taiwan Strait a priority. The best defense for Taiwan is building bridges with China, not burning them. Instead of treating China as an enemy, the Taiwanese government can take the opportunity of China's rise to shape and influence the development within China. A more prosperous and democratic China with which Taiwan is closely associated will provide the best defense for Taiwan's democracy and way of life.
December 2nd, 2004  
Zyca
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by antimili
Taiwan should probably make improving relations across the Taiwan Strait a priority. The best defense for Taiwan is building bridges with China, not burning them. Instead of treating China as an enemy, the Taiwanese government can take the opportunity of China's rise to shape and influence the development within China. A more prosperous and democratic China with which Taiwan is closely associated will provide the best defense for Taiwan's democracy and way of life.
Yes, in 2000, CSB tried. Now, he's trying again. What China wants though, is that Taiwan declares itself "part of China" before China is willing to get on the table and discuss anything. So the door is shut on one side, and it's understandable because China, having the big fist, does not respect Taiwan or sees it as anyone deserving of rights. Imagine yourself fighting for a candy with a little kid, will you negotiate with the kid? Not likely, you'll probably just take it when you want, you don't believe the kid has a say even though he has the candy right now because you know you can take it with ease. So why negotiate, cooperate, and look for a middle ground? Everything goes MY way or I kick your butt since I am much bigger than you -- that's what China believes now, and it's the truth too, China is a lot bigger than anyone in the region.

All along I've been saying, unification is a possibility, but it shouldn't be a prerequiste before China-Taiwan relationship moves forward.
December 2nd, 2004  
Zyca
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flak88
taiwan independence:
1) war from china
2) as ppl already mentioned, taiwanese<_> trade will collaspe: thouhg unhealthy for china, china gets to keep the factoires and goodies already built, who needs the capital when these already-built factories could be sold for profits
3) formally and dipolamatically, the international world will not reconize taiwan except for some measily small countrie+ panama.
4)mostly likely a naval blockade will cut off taiwans trade and commerence: but there will be little trade anyways since most countries fear china's powers and does not like to tip favor for the taiwanese
5) china will take air supoirircy over taiwan( sry for the spelling), in which air commerence will breakdown
6) taiwan has more mouths to feed than the amount of foo dit could support in its own gardens, thereby china could gain by selling food to the taiwanese with a complete blockade ( if the independent government is good to the people, they will buy the food, if they are tyrants, they would not buy the food)



i dont think taiwan wants to choose independence

rather, joing with china or fear this!!!!!
Exactly, what can Taiwan do when China blocks Taiwan, both air and surface? Nothing. And Taiwan economy will collapse immediately because Taiwan does rely heavy on trading with other countries (China is definitely a big trading partner, but losing China will not collapse Taiwan; however without ANY trading partner, Taiwan will collapse, so will probably many countries). Most countries doing trades with Taiwan will whine about the blockade since they can't do trades anymore, but no one is going to mess with China unless they're crazy.

That brings me to another question, I always wondered how long Taiwan could stand a Chinese attack. Let's forget about the ground forces, it's over when PLA lands in Taiwan. We should just look at the Navy and the Air Force. Is there a good website that shows the current technology PRC has in its military?