Total ignorance in the Middle East!

Duty Honor Country

Duty Honor Country

Active member
I am not defending either party on this rant. I do not agree with the Israelis for attacking civilian targets nor do I agree with the taking of 3 Israeli soldiers and attacks on civilian targets in Israel.

It's stupid idealogy like what the Syrian UN ambassador said that makes me mad

Bashar Ja'afari, Syria's ambassador to the United Nations, said Thursday that Syria supports Hezbollah because it is engaging in "national resistance against foreign occupation."

Ja'afari said the roots of the current conflict go far beyond the recent escalation of tensions.


"The Arab-Israeli conflict did not start with the capture of an Israeli soldier in Gaza or two other Israeli soldiers in south Lebanon. The Arab-Israeli conflict is 60 years old, and nobody was giving any care to solving this conflict," he said. "Those who should be blamed are the Israeli policies, not the Arab policies."
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If my Middle Eastern history is correct, it was the Arabs who attempted to wipe Israel off the map when Israel became a country. So if the conflict is 60 years old, then Israel has every right to continue the fight.

Does anyone else see this madness? Any additions to Middle Eastern ignorance would be greatly appreciated.

Doody
 
I do not want to appear as siding with the Palestinians, since I generally support Israel, but the immigrant Jews began with expropriations and expulsions after 1945. These actions initiated the eventual permanent conflict.

However, I personally think that the Palestinian issue has been mobilized for political reasons. That is, the Muslim states don't actually care about the Palestinians and are more than willing to use Lebannon & Palestine for cannon fodder.
 
America has certainly influenced Israeli policy of counter attack for years by preaching restraint when they are attacked. When Israel goes into Gaza, the US has told them when enough is enough. Except for the 1967 war, Israel has always complied with our wishes and suffered in silence as their people are attacked almost daily. When a Bus load of civilians or a crowded market is blown apart by Palestinians, they have showed more restraint than America ever would have. I think they have just had enough and are willing to finally take this thing with the Arabs to a finish.
 
Enough is enough. Allow Israel to put an end to these bastards once and for all. The Arabs say that they're victims. Let them prove it through their actions.

Remember folks, actions speak louder than words.
 
Its just convienent that this happens the day the G-8 starts, and will surely take attention away from the Iranian nuke issue. So the iranian funded hezzbulah and hamas start trouble to draw attention away from Iran hmm. Why do we ignore the source of most of the troubles in the middle east which is Iran.
 
My personal opinion on the Palestinian/Israeli thing is that neither side actually wants peace this conflict is all about escalation and imposing your will on the surroundings, I am of the opinion that neither side really worth supporting as they are as bad as each other.

From a pro-Palestinian view point they are seen as terrorists and they are basically little more than refugees in their own land (they were born there and have a sizable history there) how do they form a "conventional" army and fight back when you dont have a nation to do it frm and if someone made you a refugee in what you saw as your own land then wouldnt you fight back with whatever you could?

From a pro-Israeli point of view a sizable number of these people are are attacking civilian targets that makes them terrorists and the response is proportional to the crime after all it is their country they are defending.

From a western point of view and as someone that is heartily sick of the whole middle eastern nonsense I say seal the borders and leave them to it, no media coverage and no foreign aid.
 
MontyB said:
My personal opinion on the Palestinian/Israeli thing is that neither side actually wants peace this conflict is all about escalation and imposing your will on the surroundings, I am of the opinion that neither side really worth supporting as they are as bad as each other........
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Let’s hope and pray either sides have a new good leader who has vision of peace, or the conflict will not be ended, not for hundreds years.
For Arab side especially Palestinian seems too hard to do since too many factions there (Hamas, Fatah, Hisbollah).
 
MontyB said:
My personal opinion on the Palestinian/Israeli thing is that neither side actually wants peace this conflict is all about escalation and imposing your will on the surroundings, I am of the opinion that neither side really worth supporting as they are as bad as each other.

From a pro-Palestinian view point they are seen as terrorists and they are basically little more than refugees in their own land (they were born there and have a sizable history there) how do they form a "conventional" army and fight back when you don't have a nation to do it from and if someone made you a refugee in what you saw as your own land then wouldn't you fight back with whatever you could?

From a pro-Israeli point of view a sizable number of these people are are attacking civilian targets that makes them terrorists and the response is proportional to the crime after all it is their country they are defending.

From a western point of view and as someone that is heartily sick of the whole middle eastern nonsense I say seal the borders and leave them to it, no media coverage and no foreign aid.
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MB
The problem with your proposed plan is that we now live in a world community and it is no longer possible for you to stick your head in the sand and expect the rest of the world to leave you alone. As more and more energy is required by every country in the world, events taking place in the Middle East have greater and greater impact on the world price of petroleum and natural gas. Even if you did NOT have a horse in this particular race, every time that Israel and the Palestinians or any other country in the region have a terrorist attack or pitched battle ... the price of a gallon of gas spirals ever higher.

What this means is, if you don't support either side (or any side) in the conflicts taking place in the Middle East you are still going to have to live with the consequence of the conflict. Higher energy costs mean that you will end up paying ever higher prices for every item you buy.

So do think you can just ignore what is taking place somewhere else in the world? ... it is no longer possible.

As to who is right and who is wrong ... it doesn't make a pound of difference. At this stage of the conflict, it would have no real effect even though Israel prefers peace. As long as Hamas and Hezbollah won't leave Israel in peace and are bound and determined to destroy Israel, Israel has no choice but to respond against these attacks with force no matter what their real preference is.
 
See this is where we are going to disagree I dont think the powers in Israel want peace any more than those who lead Hamas and Co and I also think there is a tendancy to look at this conflict from a post 1945 view (where Israel is recognised country being attacked) when its protagonists are fighting a biblical war of thousands of years.

As far as globally sure there is an impact on fuel prices but this should and (in the future) has to be seen as a reason to move away from a dependance on non-sustainable fuels and not a reason to play silly buggers and get involved in the quagmire.
 
Guys, i'm telling you to just blame britain for doing a horrible job at managing the palestinian mandate. That's your origin of the whole conflict right there. IMO, arabs and jews could have gotten along just fine since they have similar cultures and history in the region, there wasn't much of a hate of them by arabs before the conflict. The two sides out of miscommunication and poor dimplomacy have been fighting since. There hasn't been this long of a dispute since the hundred years war, i mean the retardness of all this is biblical.
 
MontyB said:
See this is where we are going to disagree I don't think the powers in Israel want peace any more than those who lead Hamas and Co and I also think there is a tendency to look at this conflict from a post 1945 view (where Israel is recognised country being attacked) when its protagonists are fighting a biblical war of thousands of years.

As far as globally sure there is an impact on fuel prices but this should and (in the future) has to be seen as a reason to move away from a dependence on non-sustainable fuels and not a reason to play silly buggers and get involved in the quagmire.
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I just love it ... because Israel strikes BACK at forces that have attacked them, somehow you arrive at the theory that Israel doesn't want peace. This is just about what I'd expect out of you based upon past posts.
This is just another case of someone trying to blame Israel and supporting terrorism in the process.

This IS NOT 1945 ... Israel DOES have a country to call it's own ... the Palestinians DO NOT have a country of their own and WILL NOT have one as long as they allow Hamas to dictate policy for ALL Palestinians and carry out terrorist attacks against Israel. Israel tried to allow diplomacy to resolve differences between Palestinians and Israel by withdrawing their armed forces from the Gaza Strip and turning the strip over to a Palestinian governing body and what did they receive in return, Hamas kidnapped members of the Israel Army and mounted ever more violent terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.

How you can make a perverted case against Israel by claiming that Israel doesn't want peace is beyond me.

I guess when someone walks up to you and smacks you across the face when you are minding your own business, it's because you wanted to have a fight with the person in the first place and you shouldn't respond by taking a swing back at them. YEAH ... I guess that makes as much sense as your theory.
 
Yet again we have a case of seeing what you want to see.

I will make this as simple as possible we (the west) see this as a battle of Israel being attacked being attacked which is a "history starts at 1945" view however the Palestinians see this as an occupation that has gone on since 1945.

So heres the bit that requires some open mindedness but here goes, in order to address these problems you have to get past the Israel is always right after all they are a country thats been in existence for a whole 60 years and address the Palestinian issue that goes back well before that.

How you can make a perverted case against Israel by claiming that Israel doesn't want peace is beyond me.
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Yeah yeah whatever is about all that your comment deserves.

I guess when someone walks up to you and smacks you across the face when you are minding your own business, it's because you wanted to have a fight with the person in the first place and you shouldn't respond by taking a swing back at them. YEAH ... I guess that makes as much sense as your theory.
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Hmmm and what if I had moved into the guys home, kicked him out and stuck him in a shelter for the last 60 years would you still defend my right to punch out his wife and kids in my defence even if I was minding my own business at the time?
 
Folks

Most arabs, except the fundimentalists acknowledge Isreal right to exist, even Arafat said so. That isnt the issue. The issue is the land in the West Bank the Isrealis basically stole from the Palestineans. The only excuse the Isrealis use as justification to this occupation is that they claimed God promised it to them. The Isrealis policy on settlements is shockingingly similar of the Nazi policy of Lebansraum (Living Space).

And until that issue is resolved, there will never be peace for either Isreal nor the USA.
 
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Monty
You are assuming that the Arabs had a better right to the land than the Jews did. If you examine the history of the region you will arrive at a different conclusion The Jewish people had as much claim as the Arabs. They both called that region of the Middle East home (and have done so for thousands of years). What makes a difference is the mandate which partitioned the land in order to allow both the Palestinians and the Jewish people land in which to establish a homeland.

The Jews accepted the land mandate and set about building a country ... the Palestinians (various Arab extractions), decided to piss and moan about the decision and set out to destroy a people because of some perverted religious reason (and the inability to share).

Your 'stolen land', 'occupied home', 'better claim' arguments are so much hot air and bear no accuracy as to the real history of the region. Even the Bible recognizes that various tribes were located throughout the region ... so ... why is it so hard for you to accept that this argument IS NOT about stolen land ... it's about the little boy that wanted the entire cake and wasn't willing to share.

Israel's share of the unrest is as a result of trying to protect their right to exist and in protection of their people. The same CAN NOT be said of the Palestinians ... terrorism targets those who are completely innocent and who's ONLY crime is trying to exist and make a life for themselves and their families.
 
Chief Bones said:
Monty
You are assuming that the Arabs had a better right to the land than the Jews did. If you examine the history of the region you will arrive at a different conclusion The Jewish people had as much claim as the Arabs. They both called that region of the Middle East home (and have done so for thousands of years). What makes a difference is the mandate which partitioned the land in order to allow both the Palestinians and the Jewish people land in which to establish a homeland.
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Yes well the British seem to have a history of giving away things they dont own just ask the Czech's.
However you are most correct Arabs and Arab Jews have a valid claim to the land however they have always been there and for the most part lived quite peacefully until the the arrival of European jews in the last century and it is a few of those people that have caused the issue.

To a large degree I guess this argument comes down to whether you see Judaism a nationality (race) or a religion I see it as a religion and religion has no claim to any land over any indigenous population.

The Jews accepted the land mandate and set about building a country ... the Palestinians (various Arab extractions), decided to piss and moan about the decision and set out to destroy a people because of some perverted religious reason (and the inability to share).
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So if the UN decides yanks dont need all that land and there are a sizable number of Mexicans in California/Texas or any state who what their own home we are going to give it to them and rename it "Even newer Mexico" you are going to sit back and say its ok we need to share, "Hola Everybody"?
Lets face it you could easily absorb the population of one state into the others so apart from a year or so of relocation issues it wouldnt be that big a deal.

Yes you may think it a ridiculous claim but it is what you expect the Palestinians (of the time) to do.


Israel's share of the unrest is as a result of trying to protect their right to exist and in protection of their people. The same CAN NOT be said of the Palestinians ... terrorism targets those who are completely innocent and who's ONLY crime is trying to exist and make a life for themselves and their families.
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Haha man I love one eyed views of history.
I mean hell I wonder where all those "palestinian terrorists" came up with the idea of blowing things up?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

But all this aside it doesnt matter whether you are terrorist or military it is wrong to target civilians and whether you accept it or not both sides do target civilians. I will stick by my original statement that nuking the entire region will do more to bring world peace than road maps ever will.
 
Missileer said:
America has certainly influenced Israeli policy of counter attack for years by preaching restraint when they are attacked. When Israel goes into Gaza, the US has told them when enough is enough. Except for the 1967 war, Israel has always complied with our wishes and suffered in silence as their people are attacked almost daily. When a Bus load of civilians or a crowded market is blown apart by Palestinians, they have showed more restraint than America ever would have. I think they have just had enough and are willing to finally take this thing with the Arabs to a finish.
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Maybe the US could put some more pressure on Israel about their West Bank policy.

Rabs, what do you have in mind for Iran? Invasion? (Nice Gun you have! Off to Gitmo soon?)
Egypt does recognize Israels right to exist. Remember Sadat, Rabs.
 
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Chief Bones

I gotta agree with MontyB on this one. It has everything to do with the West Bank.

Trying to use the Bible, Torah, Koran is not an explaination to who owns the West Bank, because every side is convinced that they are entitled to it by God. The Arabs are simply not going to accept a prophecy from the Torah/Talmude. Its like me saying that your house is actually mine because it was promised to me by MY God. Would you accept that arguement? I sure as hell wouldn't. And since God has been playing Golf on the other side of the Galaxy, we cannot ask her directly. So religon is out, so that just leaves the modern day facts.

The fact remains that before 1967 the land was then occupied by the Palestineans. The Isrealis captured the West Bank through military force and forced the inhabitants to flee at gunpoint. They then declared this land to be part of Isreal. As I said before, thats shocking similar to the Nazi policy of Lebansraum in 1939 in Czechoslavkia and Poland. And it is theft.

One final point. Most Israelis agree that the West Bank should be given back (with the exception of Jerusalem). Its these 187000 settlers (out of a population of 6 Million) whom are mostly from communities in NYC and Russia that absolute refuse to have any sort of negociation whatsoever.
 
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MontyB said:
.................... I will stick by my original statement that nuking the entire region will do more to bring world peace than road maps ever will.
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Now you finally hit on a solution that I agree with ... NUKE EM ALL ... LET GOT SORT EM OUT.
 
Chief Bones said:
Now you finally hit on a solution that I agree with ... NUKE EM ALL ... LET GOT SORT EM OUT.
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They should all be evacuated somewhere else, then the "holdy land" should be nuked and bombed with all sorts of toxins so noone can claim it for another 500,000 years :D
 
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