'Torture-tainted evidence' mars US legal image: rights group (AFP) - Page 2




 
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Boots
 
March 15th, 2008  
senojekips
 
 
The main problem with those espousing anti American feeling in my view is that there is a very vocal and quite well organised minority who are just waiting for any excuse they can get to drag the USA's name through the mud. They are singularly one eyed and never see the other side of the argument.

Unfortunately our Governments (collectively) dismiss them without so much as a backward glance and do not acknowledge that these people are capable of influencing large numbers of ignorant and otherwise dissatisfied people of which there are huge numbers. Like all things, once you get a ground swell of support it takes a lot of stopping, it feeds on it's own strength, right or wrong.

No one will ever satisfy these idiots, so the only way I can see them being made insignificant is to give them no ammunition to work with, and the way to do that is to play by the rules as accepted by the recognised "civilised' world.

This will eat into the profit margins of many multi national interests and they will fight it every inch of the way, but I can't see any other logical solution.
March 15th, 2008  
Del Boy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeEnfield
People that will cut your throat for television entertainment are requesting their human rights. Also has every forgotten just how they treated people in their own country who did not share their own views. I think we should remember that many of these people are dangerous terrorist and should be treated accordingly.



I agree with Le. Americans should stop whipping themselves. America is in a war against the most vicious ideology imaginable. If you doubt that, then remind yourself of the scenario on the planes of Sep.11th. America has to have the gloves off for this one, for they will be shown no mercy, just as their air passengers were not - women and children included, killed deliberately and proudly. These people respect only power.

As for half the world hating America - such people will always have a reason to hate. America should do whatever it takes for America. What is good for America is good for the world. The good guys are being tested by those who would destroy them. You cannot fight with one arm tied behind your back.
March 15th, 2008  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Boy
I agree with Le. Americans should stop whipping themselves. America is in a war against the most vicious ideology imaginable. If you doubt that, then remind yourself of the scenario on the planes of Sep.11th.
So do you advocate that this gives us the right to break the rules that we set up, thereby proving to the world that we are every bit as bad as those whom we so quickly condemn?
Quote:
At the aAmerica has to have the gloves off for this one, for they will be shown no mercy, just as their air passengers were not - women and children included, killed deliberately and proudly. These people respect only power.
Ahhh, An eye for an eye eh, I think we had better be very sure of ourselves before we go down that road. Also I feel that you have fallen for a very common misconception. "Power" does not build respect, it just creates fear, and there is no enemy potentially so dangerous as frightened man, he may very well do something that we will all regret
Quote:
As for half the world hating America - such people will always have a reason to hate. America should do whatever it takes for America. What is good for America is good for the world.
The last sentence is probably the most naive statement I have seen on this forum since Phoenix80 departed. I think even the Americans here would blush at such unabashed and shameless self promotion.
Quote:
The good guys are being tested by those who would destroy them. You cannot fight with one arm tied behind your back.
Wel,.. we would like to think of ourselves as the good guys, but recent past events are making that position almost untenable.

If you want to be seen as the good guys, there is only one way to do it. That is to "be Good" not set rules for everyone else then go and just do as we please.
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Boots
March 15th, 2008  
Del Boy
 
[quote=senojekips;409510]The last sentence is probably the most naive statement I have seen on this forum since Phoenix80 departed.



Ah yes - here we go again. The same old personal put-down to kick off with. Well , Phoenix 80 may have become a victim of such, but I am not biting. So rather than taking issue by responding in detail I will stand on my intial take. That doesn't mean that I am unable to dismiss the same old stuff put forward, I just am not prepared to get go there.

Just let me say that I am talking of the real world, and America's real challenge, rather than the world we would all choose given half a chance. When in doubt - defend yourself, and defend yourself hard. I am just completely sick of America being kicked in the balls, and yes, that especially includes their President.

Anyone fancy a walk in his shoes?
March 15th, 2008  
senojekips
 
 
[quote=Del Boy;409577]
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Anyone fancy a walk in his shoes?
His discomfort is purely of his own making.

The big problem is that good young Americans are dying in droves just to support GWs bid to stay in power. 2752 persons were killed in the initial attack on 11/9/2001. At the moment the toll in Iraq stands at 3987 with 5 pending confirmation. And the world is not one bit safer, in fact possibly the reverse.
March 15th, 2008  
Del Boy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
The big problem is that good young Americans are dying in droves just to support GWs bid to stay in power.

This claim is unjustified. To what bid do you refer? He cannot hold onto power, he is surely simply doing his best to do his duty on his watch, and that is the most that can be asked of anyone, as Patton tells us . Anyone fancy a walk in his shoes?

The casualties are the responsibilty of those who made the call to attack America, and their hordes who applauded.

"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want". -Sherman.
March 15th, 2008  
MontyB
 
 
So you are sticking with the argument that Iraq/Hussein had something/anything to do with 9/11?


If so perhaps you should read up on recent US statements about WMD's and Iraqs involvement with Al Queda and pretty much every other excuse that was given to justify invasion.

Not that this is any surprise but I agree with Spike although I am not sure I agree that the West as a whole has lost its "moral high ground" as much of the West has long since distanced itself from the torture process.
March 15th, 2008  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Boy
This claim is unjustified. To what bid do you refer? He cannot hold onto power, he is surely simply doing his best to do his duty on his watch, and that is the most that can be asked of anyone,
The bid engineered by the NeoCons who realised that they had to create a need to keep GW in power.
Quote:
as Patton tells us .Anyone fancy a walk in his shoes?
Could you please tell me where this saying is attributed to Patton, as I have just Googled the saying and the word Patton and can find no reference?

Quote:
The casualties are the responsibilty of those who made the call to attack America, and their hordes who applauded.
Well why is it that the US now admits and has done for years, that there is no provable link between Iraq and the events of 9/11. No,... it is the responsibility of those who thought up such marvellous things as WMD and "Your are either with us or against us". Who tried to tell the US public that this war would be short and sweet like the Kuwait affair. Who then "waded in" with no viable plan for the future.

Quote:
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want". -Sherman.
I seem to remember that it was the coalition who chose to go to war.

9/11 was a criminal/terrorist act and was not orchestrated by any sovereign country or recognised power.. It was not an act of "war". Al Quaeda is a criminal group nothing else. (Arabic: القاعدة‎ al-qāʕida, translation: The Base) is an international alliance of Islamic militant terrorist organizations founded in 1988.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Not that this is any surprise but I agree with Spike although I am not sure I agree that the West as a whole has lost its "moral high ground" as much of the West has long since distanced itself from the torture process.
I feel that "The West" was always against most of the methods used, Torture, The use of Guantanamo Bay so that the prisoners would not come under US legal jurisdiction" the whole box and dice. However, there is an a very unfortunate but never the less true saying, "If you lay down with dogs, don't be surprised if you get fleas". It does not apply to "The West" necessarily, but it is certainly a reflection on the other members of the coalition. And all it has done, is to lessen our moral righteousness in the eyes of the world. Maintaining the moral high ground is worth more than any other singular thing in this whole affair.
March 15th, 2008  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I feel that "The west was always against most of the methods used, Torture, The use of Guantanamo Bay so that the prisoners would not come under US legal jurisdiction" the whole box and dice. However, there is an a very unfortunate but never the less true saying, "If you lay down with dogs, don't be surprised if you get fleas". It does not apply to "The West" necessarily, but it is certainly a reflection on the other members of the coalition.
I agree but however while the US went down the Guantanamo Bay path a sizable proportion of the western world distanced itself from the process rapidly so to that extent I don't believe we need a flea bath, I am not sure we can extend the same thing to some of the Eastern European nations though as some of them seem to have embraced this process with enthusiasm although I guess they have had 50 years of previous experience.
March 16th, 2008  
Del Boy
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
The bid engineered by the NeoCons who realised that they had to create a need to keep GW in power. Could you please tell me where this saying is attributed to Patton, as I have just Googled the saying and the word Patton and can find no reference?


Ah -the dreaded Neo-Cons again. ANYONE but the enemy who attacked USA and brought America into this current situation. This response just does not explain your unjustified claim at all! Try again please. Geo W. will have served his two terms under great duress and he will then be gone. I see no evidence that he seeks further power.


And what saying did you google?




quote- senojekips -" Well why is it that the US now admits and has done for years, that there is no provable link between Iraq and the events of 9/11. [/quote]



Did I mention IraQ ?



[quote senojekips - "9/11 was a criminal/terrorist act and was not orchestrated by any sovereign country or recognised power.. It was not an act of "war". Al Quaeda is a criminal group nothing else. (Arabic: القاعدة‎ al-qāʕida, translation: The Base) is an international alliance of Islamic militant terrorist organizations founded in 1988."[/quote]


9/11 was in fact a wake-up call to America as to just what was going on in the world. Al Quaeda is indeed an alliance of Islamic terrorists well supported throughout Islam , based and trained in Afghanistan and other Muslim countries and recruited throughout the Islamic world. This is the war to which I refer, imposed upon America.


[quote senojekips -
"I feel that "The West" was always against most of the methods used, Torture, The use of Guantanamo Bay so that the prisoners would not come under US legal jurisdiction" the whole box and dice. However, there is an a very unfortunate but never the less true saying, "If you lay down with dogs, don't be surprised if you get fleas". It does not apply to "The West" necessarily, but it is certainly a reflection on the other members of the coalition. And all it has done, is to lessen our moral righteousness in the eyes of the world. Maintaining the moral high ground is worth more than any other singular thing in this whole affair."
[/quote]



It is fatal to enter a war without the will to win it.

Surely none of us are supporters of torture, but I prefer to take the evidence of those entrusted with our safety and protection, that Guantanamo Bay is a necessary tool for dealing with such murderous "dogs " as you mention, who rely upon our perceived weakness to assist them in dealing us mortal blows; the only "Dogs" involved were those who carried out 9/11; never appease their like or those who support them is my advice.

And your conclusion is incorrect - the most worthy singular thing arising in this situation is in fact SURVIVAL.
 


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