torture ban

Should the US Ban Torture?


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Maybe I'm naive, but I was of the impression that it was already banned but ignored.

Remembering that information gathered as a result of torture is of dubious value anyway, as the party being tortured will tell you whatever he thinks you want to hear just to stop the torture.

If it is banned who is going to police it? All pretty senseless really, one only has to look on youtube to see the unprovoked use of violence by Police etc., to realise how useless a ban would be.
 
Senojekips

Yes, the Constitution forbids torture.

The Eighth Amendment of the US Constitution:

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

So Torture is illegal within the US. However Doody is referring to the practice of RENDITION. Which is to send prisoners to other countries (somewhat) friendly to the US like Syria where their definition of human rights differs from ours. In short its a method the US uses to work around the Constitution.

In every discussion I have listened to from people in the various fields of Law Enforcement they have all said the same thing:

Torture is an extremely ineffective method of interrogation.

The reason being that a suspect under duress will eventually admit to anything in order to end their agony. We no longer live in the Dark Ages where the sole purpose of interrogation was to extract a confession (regardless whether it was true or not). Our purposes are to have suspects provide information that we can use in the war against terror. It is far more effective to 'flip' suspects to your side. A person gives far more useful infomation when its offered freely than when its coercised out of him.
 
So Torture is illegal within the US. However Doody is referring to the practice of RENDITION.

Which is to send prisoners to other countries (somewhat) friendly to the US like Syria where their definition of human rights differs from ours.

Wrong. Doody, nor anyone else in this entire thread said anything about renditions. I just re-read every post in the thread. Prove me wrong, I dare ya.

Syria, US, friendly?? What have you been smoking?
:box:
 
Let's not get too deep into the meaning and interpretation of words. Rendition is only torture by proxy so it should come under the same general umbrella as that which we are discussing. The same as a person who hires a killer to murder a third person is as guilty as if he had done it himself.

Back to my last question, in the event that torture per se be banned, who would police it?
 
Well technically you are talking about "Extraordinary rendition". So let's continue this interpretation eh ;)

Since Rendition in law means "handing over" and could be done interstate or international
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendition_(law)

Furthermore last time I checked rights of U.S. Citizens only applied to U.S. Citizens or those applying for citizenship or visiting with the proper visas...
 
Ah, the policing of said ban would fall on our ever so competent and professional, ahem, United Nations, ahem.
 
The United States of America should be allowed to torture these terrorist scumbags.

So 5.56, you want to go against your own constitution. Something you have claimed is not negotiable in other threads.
 
So 5.56, you want to go against your own constitution. Something you have claimed is not negotiable in other threads.
I'd argue that it doesn't go against it. The 8th amendment is about cruel and unusual PUNISHMENT. Interrogation is not punishment.
 
So 5.56, you want to go against your own constitution. Something you have claimed is not negotiable in other threads.

The US Constitution is very explicit in sating that it does not cover foreigners, I have no idea where people got the notion that the United States of Americas' Constitution applies to anyone that is not a US Citizen, Applicant of US Citizenship, or a properly documented Visitor.

Regardless of wether they are taken into custody under military action...

Disclaimer:
This statement in no way means that I the poster agree with "torture" or what has been stated by the user "5.56". I the "poster" aforementioned am simply providing information regarding a post that has a clear misunderstanding mentioned within it. I as the "poster" am not responsible for any damages that may be occurred from the previously stated statements nor do I endorse the actual use of anything stated in any accordance with any official document or statements hereto or hereafter. This post is purely made for discussion merits and may be changed at any time with or without due notice. If you feel these conditions can not be met please do not read or respond to the above stated and please carry on with your existence. All rights are reserved and all liability now forth waived, thank you and have a nice day.

:horsie:
 
If you look back, for those that didn't take the time to read this thread from the beginning (AHEM!), I would defer to the opinion of our member who was trained and is qualified as an interrogator.
 
Seeing as you spent 3/4 of your post on legal jargon, please provide references for your statements.

5th Amendment - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings (Part of the Bill of Rights)

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
14th Amendment - Citizenship Rights

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5.
The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
I will be more than happy to dig up more evidence but I'm pretty sure the 5th Amendment itself covers everything I said pretty well ;)

side note I was being funny apparently no one has a sense of humor anymore....
 
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Where you being funny about the legal jargon or your post?

The US Constitution is very explicit in sating that it does not cover foreigners, I have no idea where people got the notion that the United States of Americas' Constitution applies to anyone that is not a US Citizen, Applicant of US Citizenship, or a properly documented Visitor.

Regardless of wether they are taken into custody under military action...

And then in your own post.

nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
 
Where you being funny about the legal jargon or your post?



And then in your own post.

You need to read the entire thing buddy and don't forget the 14h amendment

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Please notice the bold...Again also read the 14th

I will get you the rest later

(Yes who actually puts in a disclaimer...seriously ;))
 
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