Top Japanese scientists disagree with Global Warming

Great debate - I see where Senojkips comes from and I feel for his arguments. My main question is wherre is the harm intrying something different. After all we know that oil will run out and that leafy stuff replenishes oxygen in the atmosphere, but we're destroying it at a very quick pace.

I too dislike the fanatic fervour of environmentalists, but I don't think it hurts to try & take care of what you're got and make the most of it! We do the same with our children, pets and our gardens!

For me I do what I can to preserve & recycle (and offer to help people do the same whenever I can) it is not a religion, it is the duty of a parent passing on stewardship to my children, so I want to make it as best as I can!
 
I have great respect for the environment, and practice the philosophy wherever I can. My beef is with the panic stricken believers who not only think they have all the right answers, they are trying to promote the idea that those who do not necessarily believe their ideas are "The anti christ" and will be responsible for the downfall of mankind as we know it.

It's all too showman like, to me. In fact it is so "over the top" as to convince me that there is an ulterior motive behind it all.

I firmly believe that if it were closer to the truth, the facts would be more self evident, without all the showmanship and mind games.

It seems many of our academics think that the PDP are Neanderthals who can be easily manipulated and led around by the nose. From what I read here, it appears that in some instances they are correct. People throw their own common sense out the window because some twit with a degree tells them they are not qualified to believe what they see and make their own judgements.

By being human beings in this earth, we are natural sinners.
Not me! I'm a good guy.
 
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You know its very strange how people like to polarise opinion, and jump on one side or the other. I am not an academic but a practical engineer. I am not even an environmentalist is the traditional sense of the word, judging each issue by it's merits. I am favour of nuclear power, GM foods, carbon capture/storage and have major reservations of the 'hydrogen economy', micro generation, cycling and public transport in many forms.

The problem is that there are so many traps for the educated layman. It's a classic case were a little knowledge can be worse than none at all!

My main point here is that there is so much evidence behind Anthropogenic global warming and of the limited time to do anything about it that the sceptical lobby who are clearly manipulating facts have to be tackled. It's no good saying, OK we were wrong what do we do then? Too sodding late mate it is irreversible. It's a shame that the likes of senojekips (and MontyB for that matter) cannot be made liable to pay for the subsequent damage through paying excess taxes. It may concentrate their minds and force them to take responsibility for their actions respectively.

Great debate - I see where Senojkips comes from and I feel for his arguments. My main question is wherre is the harm intrying something different. After all we know that oil will run out and that leafy stuff replenishes oxygen in the atmosphere, but we're destroying it at a very quick pace.

Unfortunately, this is where I might be falling into a trap because a debate is precisely what sceptics wan't. The purpose is to create UNCERTAINTY when there is little. It is merely a delaying action whilst they fill their pockets, leaving 'Monty's kids' to clear up the mess, since it is a battle they cannot win.
 
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Hey leave me out of this, I pretty much agree with you but I am not silly enough to get caught up in a 30 page cyclic argument that will invariably go no where.

Here I will save you guys a lot of time:

Perseus: Yes Global Warming is man made, here is 75 links to prove it.
Senojekips: No it isn't.

Rinse and repeat for 25 pages.

Anyone change their mind yet?
 
Unfortunately, this is where I might be falling into a trap because a debate is precisely what sceptics wan't. The purpose is to create UNCERTAINTY when there is little. It is merely a delaying action whilst they fill their pockets, leaving 'Monty's kids' to clear up the mess, since it is a battle they cannot win.
Once again you are whistling in the dark, the very type of behaviour that creates that very "uncertainty" in those who feel that their education makes them infallible. I personally can't speak for all sceptics, but I don't want a debate, and I stated that not a few hours ago in this thread.
I don't feel that debating with zealots is a good use of my time and effort or an honest thing to do. I'm not trying to convince you of my case, and I'm not particularly interested in anything you can show me as I have seen it all before,... ad nauseam. I have stated my case and the reasons for my opinions being what they are. I'm one of those souls who likes to make his own mistakes, as generally I find they are far fewer and much less painful than those of others.

You trot out all of the hackneyed guilt trips, your answers are more akin to those of a Religious zealot, that those of someone involved in science

I notice you paraphrase one of Herman Goering's quotes as your signature, how ironic that the import of it regarding this debate is obviously lost upon you... So much for the tertiary educated mind.... what was it you said about a little knowledge being sometimes worse than none at all? It might also pay you to remember that in this field, and possibly many others, there are plenty of persons who would consider you to only have "a little knowledge".

Perseus: Yes Global Warming is man made, here is 75 links to prove it.
Senojekips: No it isn't.
Slight misquotations, seemingly so innocent yet so very dangerous. I never said any such thing, I am saying that I am not convinced. Because for your 75 links, I can find as many, possibly more, refuting them.

The jury is out, and until they return a finding, so am I.
 
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Not even the judicial system requires you to be 100% convinced they accept beyond reasonable doubt, it is my personal opinion that demanding 100% validation is simply a mechanism designed to avoid having to change your mind.

But I plan to stick to my New Years resolution and not be drawn into repetitive arguments so I will await new input.
 
Not even the judicial system requires you to be 100% convinced they accept beyond reasonable doubt, it is my personal opinion that demanding 100% validation is simply a mechanism designed to avoid having to change your mind.

But I plan to stick to my New Years resolution and not be drawn into repetitive arguments so I will await new input.
Monty are you loosing your mind ,... or just your eyesight. Nowhere have i said that I required 100% certainty. That's two misquotes in two posts.

I think that you're just getting defensive here because I have a set of values that no one can dispute or disprove, and that angers people because it makes them doubt their own values.

Do you just want me to lie to you so you can get on with your life? I seem to remember someone having a signature on here, "You may perhaps change what I say, but not what I think", well just for reference, that was NOT me.

This religious style zealotry is further convincing me that I'm right and always have been with the evidence available, the style of this debate pongs like dog ten days dead. Torquemada would have been proud of your reasoning.
 
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senojekips Well the IPCC state their uncertainties explicitly

Where uncertainty in specific outcomes is assessed using expert judgement and statistical analysis of a body of evidence (e.g. observations or model results), then the following likelihood ranges are used to express the assessed probability of occurrence: virtually certain >99%; extremely likely >95%; very likely >90%; likely >66%; more likely than not > 50%; about as likely as not 33% to 66%; unlikely <33%; very unlikely <10%; extremely unlikely <5%; exceptionally unlikely <1%.
eg. Most of the global average warming over the past 50 years is very likely due to anthropogenic GHG increases, if you read the IPCC report you may agree with most of it, see table 3.2 for example, it discusses what may get better as well as worse. It isn't really what an environmentalist wants to see

http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/syr/ar4_syr.pdf


The evidence for AGW is just so great hardly any climate scientist would stake their reputation against it, even those which have previously done precisely that. The nearest you will get for a credible scientist is Bjørn Lomborg, although he isn't well liked in the community. His views are more focused on to what extent AGW will occur and the economic implications, which are indeed very uncertain. His book
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Skeptical_Environmentalistcould be contrasted with the Stern report.

Monty, I wasn't questioning your technical stance, which you have made clear, but your attitude to actually doing anything about it!
 
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Well, good for the IPCC, that's their opinion and they are entitled to it. It makes no difference to my view of the matter.

It's like telling a person who doesn't like red jelly, that it tastes nice... Bloody pointless, and the fact that they feel so obliged to remove all opposition to their ideas is another reason to be suspicious of their motives. If they had a real case, they would ignore the nay sayers and get on with their business as the truth would soon be self evident, and they know that will not be the case. It's called self doubt.

You'll notice I have no self doubt, you can believe as you wish I have no desire to change your opinion.
 
Well, good for the IPCC, that's their opinion and they are entitled to it. It makes no difference to my view of the matter... If they had a real case, they would ignore the nay sayers and get on with their business as the truth would soon be self evident, and they know that will not be the case. It's called self doubt.

Unfortunately, it is their business to convince people, or at least those in power and those who vote for them. Ultimately it is politicians who dictate policy and hold the purse strings not the IPCC. The truth will only be evident to such obstinate types as yourself only well after it's too late to do anything about it, and even then you will still claim it's natural.

As far as I am concerned you can believe man didn't go to the moon, fairies live at the bottom of the garden and the earth is less than 10 thousand years old along with the anti GW propaganda, providing you keep these myths to yourself and don't encourage others to believe similarly.

PS didn't you used have a quote "too old to change or care", or something like that?
 
Monty, I wasn't questioning your technical stance, which you have made clear, but your attitude to actually doing anything about it!


Tell me in the 12 pages of this thread and the constant posting of technical data and explanations do you think you have changed any minds?

People still chant the same mantra's:
- Its a left wing conspiracy.
- I don't care if all life on Earth is wiped out, I refuse to do anything that "greenies/hippies" support.
- Its a religion and all religion is wrong.

I am just avoiding the headache formed after pounding my head on a rock for 12 pages and saying screw it let the world sink.

Surely you can see the cyclic nature of this battle, you have people claiming to be open minded and just require proof to swing into action yet they dismiss any proof you put forward and as such you are wasting your time.
 
Unfortunately, it is their business to convince people, or at least those in power and those who vote for them.
Ahhh, so it's a business,... that means money is involved. That reminds me of the eminent "scientists " who are hired by companies. It never ceases to amaze me how they always end up with findings that favour the wishes of their employers.

Years ago when the Franklin below Gordon Dam was mooted, the Greens had a battery of scientists and ecologists telling us that it would be bad for the environment, so the government hired a group, and you'll never guess what they found??? Their findings all refuted those of the opposition,... Ahhh yes, the impartiality of our scientific researchers. Don't make me laugh. Yet you wonder why they have no credibility. To me it seems this phenomenon is at it's absolute worst in the ecology debate. Remember what i said about making one's own mistakes/decisions ... it's less painful and generally far less costly.

As far as I am concerned you can believe man didn't go to the moon, fairies live at the bottom of the garden and the earth is less than 10 thousand years old along with the anti GW propaganda, providing you keep these myths to yourself and don't encourage others to believe similarly.
You sound as if your argument is on it's last legs with rubbish like that last statement, if it were even vaguely true, why are you answering my posts?? I think the truth is more like you are frightened that more persons might start to think for themselves instead of blindly accepting anything they are told enough times,... wouldn't that put the cat among the pigeons?

PS didn't you used have a quote "too old to change or care", or something like that?
I've had many signatures and done and seen many things, that's why I am not a blind follower of those with vested interests. One way or the other. Regardless of Monty's trying to throw me in with one camp or the other.
 
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"Those with ulterior motives may tell you what you wish to hear, but a real friend tells you what you need to know"

Never a truer statement. Glad you've come round eventually! LOL
 
Never a truer statement. Glad you've come round eventually! LOL
I didn't "come around" that's what I've been telling you all along how come it took you so long to wake up??

That's exactly why I haven't told you what you've been wishing to hear, I have no ulterior motive.
 
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Well I had to agree with Monty that this wasn't getting anywhere so I tried to throw a little bit of humour in there, but it seems the sceptics are devoid of this as well.

toles_on_global_warming.gif


2006-547-global-warming-sceptics.jpg


bush_exxonmobil.jpg
 
Wow! now it all becomes clear as I see the type of "science" that you base your argument on. Cartoons,..... I should have guessed.

Like I said, unlike so many, I have no motive nor desire to disseminate possibilities as fact.

Why is it that people like yourself feel so threatened by people who do not blindly follow your particular line of thought and have the wherewithall to think for themselves? I guess that's just not the acceptable thing in scientific circles, eh??
 
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It seems that some sections of academia are trying as hard as they can to make it a sin to make your own observations and form your own opinions of all the material available and weigh it up against what you see personally. -snip-

...No,... you believe your eyes and ears, and when the available reports don't match up with what you see evidence of, or, if you can find other reports that dispute it, you put it down to personal opinion. -snip-

...I'm one of those souls who likes to make his own mistakes, as generally I find they are far fewer and much less painful than those of others....- snip-

...is further convincing me that I'm right and always have been with the evidence available... -snip-

...You'll notice I have no self doubt, you can believe as you wish I have no desire to change your opinion. -snip-

So, from what I understand you feel that personal experience and observation of - this includes reading up on them - of events and facts around you are a base to evaluate the direction cause and effect are working and to base your beliefs and strategies on that.

This is very human (we do that everyday several times, making connections of facts we percieve and extrapolate from there to (gu)estimate outcomes of future scenarios) and it works most of the times fairly well:

If I run my car against a wall, it will break (and probably myself also); after about 5+ GF´s/Spousal Units you get the hang on where the problems will *always* come up/from; if I need 1 hour to walk 4 km, I will probably need about 2 hours for 8 klicks and can advise on my ETA, etc.

The problem is, our brain is *only* set to correctly estimate linear outcomes but completely fails in non-linear or exponential ones, for the simple physiological reason that we only have two eyes.

You can fairly accurately estimate distances to an object you see (the small distance between our eyes is enough to allow to triangulate sufficiently for our everyday use), but judging a height correctly is rather hard (thats why we aviators need the training on when to flare in landing, you can only drill it but not judge it): To establish the distance of a car, e.g., at 150 mtrs will reslult in only a slight error, but to tell when you are 150 mtrs high in the air is impossible w/o an altimeter, you might err up to 80% easily.

This phenomenon translates to all exponential evaluations, the estimation errors easily become too big to be allowable for daily life (hence we invented maths to *calculate* instead of having to estimate).

You can easily prove that to yourself holding on reading for a second and trying to make an educated guess on the answers to the following questions (I will append the calculated solutions at the bottom of this post). You will be surprised at how your estimation will fail by many factors the actual results (and just for the record I would love to hear what people reading those questions actually guess as answers):

a) Estimate the total weight of 1000 steel balls of 1mm diameter

b) Estimate the weight of a cork ball of 1 meter diameter

c) Estimate how thick a newspaper page will become when you double it 50 times (actually, you can only double any paper 7 times in praxis, but lets for a moment assume we theoretically could double it 50 times)

Now, all natural developments are such exponential processes, following more or less the natural exponential function based on the "natural" logarithm (that is the logarithm to the base e, where e is an irrational constant approximately equal to 2.718281828).

It applies to very different things like population growth, debt growth, investment results and plant growth alike and looks like the following if plotted to a graph:

Ch5-20.gif


Take for example mankind population growth:

world%20population%20growth1.gif

It took roughly 5.000 yrs to reach the first billion in 1800, to reach the next it only took 130. The third billion was reached only 35 yrs later at 1960, and so on, to make it 4 more within 40 yrs to almost 7 billion now.

These nonlinear developments make it so hard to estimate outcomes like global warming (or icing) effects as the effects of various factors combine.

From this POV I would think your "experience and perception" based method to evaluate where you will find yourself and your children at in 20 yrs time has the potential for serious error.

Now, add to this the problem that with all the various perceptions we make everyday (noise) it will be hard to filter out the ones to base your estimates on (signals) correctly (and the filtering process alone can be base to serious errors: Estimating the value of a parameter given no data may be an interesting problem in clairvoyance, but not in estimation theory), but this is probably for another thread and I wont discuss it here, also there exists enough material on the net for that as e.g. here: http://cnx.org/content/m11263/latest/

My 2c,

Rattler

APPENDIX: Solutions to the estimation questions above


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


a) 1000 steel balls of 1 mm diameter in total weigh aprox. 4 grams.

Calculation:

- The volume of a sphere is 4pi/3*r^3
- 1000 steel balls can be grouped in 10x10x10, more or less a cm3 on the outside and describing the sphere that is inside this cubic centimeter
- volume of a sphere inside 1 cm3 is roughly 0.52 cm3
- density of steel is approximately 7.8 grams/cm3, i.e. 0,52 cm3 weigh 4 grams roughly.



b) A ball of cork of 1m diameter weighs approximately 200 kilograms

This depends heavily on the type of cork you use, denisty of cork varies from 0.18 to 0.5 g/cm3, for the calculation I have taken 0.36

Calculation:

Volume of a sphere of 1 m3 (see formula above) is 0.52 m3, at the assumed density of 0.36 (i.e. 360 kg per m3) it pans out to 187 kg weight.



c) A newspaper page doubled up 50 times will aquire a height of 1.03694111 × 10^15km = 1036941110 Million km = roughly 1 million times the distance Earth-Mars (at closest distance)

Caclulation:

- folding the newspaper page every time doubles its height
- doublling it 50 times this means you reach a height of 2^50 x the original thickness of the newspaper paper
- for the calculation I assumed this thickness to be 0.1mm = 0.0001m= 0.0000001 km
- 2^50 = 1.03694111 × 10^22, mutiply by 0.0000001 and you get 1.03694111 × 10^15 heigh in kilometers

Rattler
 
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Rattler, had you read the snips you quoted, it would have saved you a lot of time and typing. Absolutely none of what you quoted has the very least to do with how I form my opinions.

All of which are predicated on snip #3
I'm one of those souls who likes to make his own mistakes, as generally I find they are far fewer and much less painful than those of others....
 
Well Rattlers post tends to show how poor our intuitions are. They have evolved to assess simple situations, to identify prey or danger for example, and decide to fight or flight, not to provide objective calculations.

The problem with global warming is that we are very poor at long term predictions, and even when we do, we try to persuade ourselves bad news isn't true. Why didn't the Jews depart Germany before the Holocaust for example? its similar to the case of slowly boiling a frog, better the devil you know.

A more technical problem, is that people have a poor idea of how to interpret graphs and statistics. Take the following one for example:

Holocene_Temperature_Variations_Rev.png



There is a clear signal here, not just that it is increasing now, this proves little since it has changed more than this in the past. It is the relative stability up to that time compared to that sharp rise which coincides with our sharp rise in population and industry during the last hundred years. This should point strongly to an anthropogenic cause due without any fundamental arguments to support it (and of course there are plenty) but people seem blind to it. They are quite happy to justify the cause of the recent jump to natural effects.

Lets just think about that, in other words the fact that natural causes have had little effect for 8000 years then suddenly they have had an appreciable effect, just as we have started to throw out gases into the atmosphere seems quite a reasonable explanation to them! No wonder no climate scientist takes these sceptics seriously, they would be laughed out.
 
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