Tolerance Vs. Brainwashing, There is a Difference

[pixiedustboo]

I have not checked this on snopes, the link was posted at another forum I attend, I thought it would be a good debate here.

I personally think this is insane. This is something that should be dealt with in the home, not in school. One can have tolerance for homosexuals, and not support their lifestyle, I don't believe the schools should be forcing this issue in the classroom and in essence, perhaps brainwashing children.

http://www.massresistance.org/media/video/brainwashing.html



P.S. Never mind, never mind!

 

[mmarsh]

You cannot 'brainwash' someone to be homosexual. You will never be a homosexual if you are not genetically programmed that way. Its no different then trying to 'brainwash' someone to be black. You either are gay or are not.

When I see stuff like this I have a hard time deciding whether its badly misinformed people or is it a subliminal hate message they are trying to pass along. I have a sneaking suspicion that these people are against the 'homosexual agenda' as THEY call it (I have never heard gay people use the term). I think they just don't like gays period, and are too CHICKENSH** to admit they are bigots.

 

[senojekips]

You cannot 'brainwash' someone to be homosexual. You will never be a homosexual if you are not genetically programmed that way. Its no different then trying to 'brainwash' someone to be black. You either are gay or are not.

When I see stuff like this I have a hard time deciding whether its badly misinformed people or is it a subliminal hate message they are trying to pass along. I have a sneaking suspicion that these people are against the 'homosexual agenda' as THEY call it (I have never heard gay people use the term). I think they just don't like gays period, and are too CHICKENSH** to admit they are bigots.

Ahh, but of course your own statement shows you to be a "bigot" by disliking persons who state their own beliefs and hanging derogatory tags on them. So let's leave the nasty tags out of it, and look at it again.

Your whole argument revolves around your statement that no one can be brainwashed to be gay (which is only probably true), but this in no way supports or proves the theory that homosexuality is "born" into a person. There is no evidence whatsoever as yet, that homosexuality is not perhaps a thing of choice.

People who dislike homosexuals are no different to people who for example don't like Brussel Sprouts or spiders. It does not mean that they are inherently bad people, they are just people who have formed an opinion, usually as a result of personal experience. It is only political correctness that has made them "bad" people. Persons who express that dislike through anti social acts, such as exclusion or violence, are a cat of a completely different colour.

Personally I neither like nor dislike homosexuals as a group, I tend to judge them as individuals.

 

[TogaOga]

who here has a gay cousin? friend? I have both, growing up i knew my cousin to be gay. he would rather play dress-up while his brother (3 or 4 years younger) would sit there and shake his head. i think he was babied too much.

 

[Ted]

So what are you saying TogaOga; you can recognize gays because they play dress up when they are young? And being babied too much might make you soft, but gay..... I don't think so.

 

[pixiedustboo]

You cannot 'brainwash' someone to be homosexual. You will never be a homosexual if you are not genetically programmed that way. Its no different then trying to 'brainwash' someone to be black. You either are gay or are not.

When I see stuff like this I have a hard time deciding whether its badly misinformed people or is it a subliminal hate message they are trying to pass along. I have a sneaking suspicion that these people are against the 'homosexual agenda' as THEY call it (I have never heard gay people use the term). I think they just don't like gays period, and are too CHICKENSH** to admit they are bigots.

I was not talking about the children being brainwashed to be homosexual. I was talking about them being brainwashed to agree with and support a lifestyle even if it against their religious or moral beliefs. One can be polite towards a lifestyle and not support it, that is what I'm talking about. These kids do not have a chance (within the class room) to share their views that do not support a lifestyle like this.

I believe there is a "homosexual agenda," why else would things like this be brought up in school? Why are gay pride parades held on the west coast like this last year, forcing firemen to attend and then they are thrown insults and cat calls? Why are things like this brought up in the class room? Do I believe that all homosexuals are forcing the issue on people to support what they do not believe in? No! I'm sure there are many that are good people, but the ones in control are the ones that are the most extreme. 'You better support my lifestyle or ELSE.'

I wouldn't want my child being told at perhaps as young as age five that liking men and women is okay and safe. Why aren't they told of the high amount of STDs that go along with being a gay man? Why aren't they speaking of religion and that even if you do not support this within your religious beliefs that you can still be polite towards people. This is all bright sunflowers and victimizing homosexuals.

who here has a gay cousin? friend? I have both, growing up i knew my cousin to be gay. he would rather play dress-up while his brother (3 or 4 years younger) would sit there and shake his head. i think he was babied too much.

Now this I don't agree with at all. Boys can play with girl toys and they won't grow up to be gay. I used to dress my younger brother up in tutu's and other outfits and he's about as straight "man's man" as they come.

I also babysit for four kids, two of them being boys and they both love playing with "boy" toys AND playing with their sisters toys at times too. Do I think they will grow up gay? Very doubtful.

That is just silly.

 

[TogaOga]

So what are you saying TogaOga; you can recognize gays because they play dress up when they are young? And being babied too much might make you soft, but gay..... I don't think so.

I guess it's just that what i was taught. i started thinking on what i had posted (and i believe i was wrong) but the story as is...as i should have explained earlier...was that at a young age, my cousin would sit there and prefer guys to girls and was always a momas boy...that in itself does not make a gay. however, dressing up and dancing around in your mother's dress (normal for a 5 yr old) but he was 12...? i think. is that normal for a 12 yr old?

 

[mmarsh]

Ahh, but of course your own statement shows you to be a "bigot" by disliking persons who state their own beliefs and hanging derogatory tags on them. So let's leave the nasty tags out of it, and look at it again.

Of course I am a bigot, most people are bigoted against somebody. My personal peeve is that I really dislike Hate groups and radical extremists of all kinds. And I really hate when people hide their hate by trying to pass it off as something else. This case in point, I don't believe there is such a thing as anti-gay agenda, only anti gay. But it simply isn't PC to say you're a Homophobe anymore.

Your whole argument revolves around your statement that no one can be brainwashed to be gay (which is only probably true), but this in no way supports or proves the theory that homosexuality is "born" into a person. There is no evidence whatsoever as yet, that homosexuality is not perhaps a thing of choice.

There is no 100% CONCLUSIVE proof, but then Global warming is "just a theory" as well (according to President Bush). Scientific research shows that its in likeliness both genetic and hereditary. There have been many studies done that have pointed to this. Even religious groups have acknowleged this, but the more radical of them have insisted that faith can "cure" them.

People who dislike homosexuals are no different to people who for example don't like Brussel Sprouts or spiders. It does not mean that they are inherently bad people, they are just people who have formed an opinion, usually as a result of personal experience. It is only political correctness that has made them "bad" people. Persons who express that dislike through anti social acts, such as exclusion or violence, are a cat of a completely different colour.

Personally I neither like nor dislike homosexuals as a group, I tend to judge them as individuals.

But its not by personal experience, at least not for most. Its about being manipulation by fear. People are sheep, if the yew at the head of the flock says that a certain minority is bad, the rest of the flock will believe it. It took a Nazi bad apple in Germany to convince the entire German population that their problems were because of the Jews. Same thing with the Ku Klux Klan, the South Burned because the Klan managed to turn everybody against blacks.

The anti-gay movement in America preaches to people's inate inner worst. Their message is that society is decline due to the moral corruption of gays, Mormons, immigrants, and Liberals. 30 years ago it was Catholics, Hippies, and Jews. Same old hate, just new packaging.

 

[Del Boy]

I guess it's just that what i was taught. i started thinking on what i had posted (and i believe i was wrong) but the story as is...as i should have explained earlier...was that at a young age, my cousin would sit there and prefer guys to girls and was always a momas boy...that in itself does not make a gay. however, dressing up and dancing around in your mother's dress (normal for a 5 yr old) but he was 12...? i think. is that normal for a 12 yr old?

You do not need to apologize for your post, friend. You are entitled to express your views as you see them. No problem, and a legitimate post.

 

[senojekips]

Of course I am a bigot, most people are bigoted against somebody.

The very word "Bigot" isinflammatory and most often used as a put down, which in my opinion is not the way to go when we have a beef about someone else's legitimately held beliefs.

My personal peeve is that I really dislike Hate groups and radical extremists of all kinds. And I really hate when people hide their hate by trying to pass it off as something else. This case in point, I don't believe there is such a thing as anti-gay agenda, only anti gay

. But it simply isn't PC to say you're a Homophobe anymore.

But Political correctness is the root cause of most of the bitterness in these debates. It should be outlawed, as it really only represents the opinions of a very vocal minority. In my experience, true "Hate" groups are not so shy and retiring as to worry about what people think of them. People who do as you describe are more likely to be persons who do not wish to cause disharmony they are people who although they wish to state their feelings, do not want confrontation, and if this is true they hardly rate as a Hate group.

There is no 100% CONCLUSIVE proof, but then Global warming is "just a theory" as well (according to President Bush). Scientific research shows that its in likeliness both genetic and hereditary. There have been many studies done that have pointed to this. Even religious groups have acknowleged this, but the more radical of them have insisted that faith can "cure" them.

Now that is what I would call really desperate reasoning. It is true that there is no conclusive evidence that Global Warming is man made, so therefore I suppose GW is correct in his assumption. As for quoting the thoughts of Religious groups as definitive evidence, all I can say is that the mind boggles. These are people who stand up in all seriousness and denounce the theory that man possibly evolved from apes, yet in the same breath they will gladly quote that man was made from,.... dirt?? Please spare me.

But its not by personal experience, at least not for most. Its about being manipulation by fear. People are sheep, if the yew at the head of the flock says that a certain minority is bad, the rest of the flock will believe it. It took a Nazi bad apple in Germany to convince the entire German population that their problems were because of the Jews. Same thing with the Ku Klux Klan, the South Burned because the Klan managed to turn everybody against blacks.

You have just very accurately described the working principals of "Political correctness", it thrives where persons are too weak of character to stand and question it's reasoning. This has little to do with Hatred, but is more closely allied to a complete lack of moral fortitude.

The anti-gay movement in America preaches to people's inate inner worst. Their message is that society is decline due to the moral corruption of gays, Mormons, immigrants, and Liberals. 30 years ago it was Catholics, Hippies, and Jews.

Same old hate, just new packaging.

I was discussing "dislike", and I feel that the very word "hate" is another of these emotive words designed to get a reaction and is most often the cause of "hatred" in itself. As for the anti homosexual movement, from what I can see it is usually backed by the same extremist "Religious groups" that you were quoting earlier to support your argument.

As you may have gathered, I have a far greater concern about the effects of political correctness upon our society, than I will ever have about homosexuals or anti homosexuals. Homosexuals are in my view a complete "non event" and attract far more attention than they warrant, often at their own insistence in trying to gain acceptance.

 

[A Can of Man]

While in college I actually had two gay roommates so I was able to see their life and behaviors a bit better. Actually that's why I stayed on even though I found one of them extremely annoying.
Personally, I think people CAN be taught or not taught to be homosexual. I do believe there is a fraction of people who are actually inherently homosexual but there is also a large percentage (I can't say how many obviously but I think it's more than we think) who are homosexual by choice. Maybe it's some kind of need to feel like a minority. Maybe it's the culture. But lets consider this: a gay man or gay woman will actually have sex with the opposite gender while a straight man almost never will. I wouldn't know about straight women but I don't think they'll be crazy about it either.
I don't believe in the whole "You're either gay or you're not." I only think that is partially true.
I actually saw a guy go from straight to gay. You won't believe the type of behavioral change the guy underwent in one month. Are you trying to tell me that somehow his gay gene was dormant and all of a sudden in college it popped out, changing his accent, changing his walking style and so on and so forth? I find that hard to believe.
The problem right now is that parents expect the schools who can barely teach our kids how to count to 10 properly to teach our kids even more complicated stuff such as morals, the difference between right and wrong, manners, attitudes etc.
Yes again, like spike said, the main problem here is political correctness. Whether or not some dudes like to gather at some gay club and bang each other in the rear end in some dark corner is none of my business. I don't want to know and I don't care. But it's the whole "oh, what you thought about gay people is not true!!!" stuff that pisses me off. I spent a whole year living with those guys and let me tell you, the "it's not true" crap is actually quite true.
On the other hand obviously a lot of stereotypes about people happen to be true. Including stereotypes about most Asian people.
Yep, "hate" is a strong word people use to get people to stop questioning the motives or behaviors of a certain group. Sorry, doesn't work for me either. I've said some stuff about the middle east etc. but do you have any idea how many middle eastern friends I had while growing up? And I'd still have middle eastern friends now... I don't hate them. But whenever I try to say something about the terrorists people jump at me like "NOT ALL ARABS ARE TERRORISTS," "YOU ARE A RACIST," etc. Whatever. So if I see a bunch of Korean guys stringing dynamite around a hospital I guess we're just going to have to call it a "New Years' celebration tradition done with firecrackers" huh?

We're all just people. If you start giving these people who are apparently born with their status (other than disabilities) special treatment... well I guess that makes you the bigot.
It's like those assh***s who don't want people near rainforests to develop because it'll screw up the environment even though the immediate area affected would not be that big and it would improve the locals' way of life. Racists I tell you... politically correct racists.

 

[The Other Guy]

In my High School, there is a general feeling of disgust toward gays. I hear all sorts of abuse hurled at gays in general (at my school there are none that have dared come out). Being a furry (yes, I am, devil may care) I know a number of gays, and they get all sorts of hate from their peers, and even from their parents. They teach about heterosexual relationships in school, why not the other way around?

There is virtually NO WAY to keep religion out of this. 99% of hate of gays is based on religion or lack of knowledge. There is work to eliminate the latter, and I say good for them.

Tolerance should be taught. It's definitely not brainwashing.

 

[senojekips]

I was of the opinion that this thread as about Tolerance Vs Brainwashing.

If everyone is in favour of tolerance, why is it that some persons cannot reconcile that others may have varying opinions on subjects without being accused of hatred. This is where Political Correctness flies in it's own face. It uses the very "evils" it is supposed to be against, to enforce it's own points of view.

That is just irrational.

 

[TogaOga]

I do not believe that a person was born into being gay, I don't know if brainwashing has anything to do with it...i mean, you have your tv, radio, public love...nothing wrong there, but still, i wonder sometimes if our society is the ones to blame...idk...jmo...my question still though is, when do they realize they're gay?

 

[A Can of Man]

Sometimes I think the whole "tolerance" education turns into a "look at how wonderful it is to be gay!!!" education.
That's the problem.
Like I said, whether or not some dudes choose to be gay or not never really bothered me personally. After all, the less donkeys, the more corn.

 

[Del Boy]

I have to agree. Here, politically, it's almost compulsory now.

I wrote this in March 07.


THEY SAY IT’S COMPULSARY NOW

We never intended young boys
To be homosexual toys
To be taught about practices dark
Liaisons played out in the park
Rimming? Fisting? What a lark

They say it’s compulsory now.


White Heterosexual Christian Wed?
"Don’t bother to apply " it said
No top-notch policemen or soldiers required
Selection by merit has been retired
If you hate England take a bow

They say it’s compulsory now.


Council housing – need a flat?
Tick the list for doing that
Not pregnant, self-abusing? Well
Not a chance if true to tell
Not an illegal? Don’t persist
You’re at the bottom of the list
Don’t ask us why, don’t ask us how


They say it’s compulsory now.

 

[mmarsh]

Senorjekips

The term Bigot refers to anybody who discriminates against a group as a whole. Is it inflammatory? Perhaps, but its also accurate. I am not referring to those who find the act of homosexuality as unnatural and perhaps repugnant. Thats not a Bigot, thats simply having an opinion. Everybody is entitled to their opinion.

I am referring to people/organizations that try to limit the civil liberties of others through legal and illegal methods because of their own prejudice. I might find homosexuality repugnant personally, but I don't go around punishing these people who have this lifestyle. I dont know if such groups exist in Australia as they are in the USA. In France while there are certainly those who find homosexuality distasteful there are not the active 'hate' organizations there are in the USA. As I said, these groups don't call them hate groups, they disguise their true nature in robes of respectively by misleading names like "Focus on the Family", but once you sit down and really listen to their ideas of barring gays from certain professions, from children, from church, from civil rights, from equal protection under the law (i.e legitimizing violence against gays) you understand what their real agenda is.

These people have turned Jesus's "hate the sin, love the sinner" into "hate the sin, stone the sinner to death".

Second paragraph. you misunderstand. What I am saying is while the SCIENTIFIC evidence isn't conclusive, it is overwhelming. And that even many of the far right-wing has finally accepted the scientific evidence that people are born gay, (that it is not a choice). They just naively think that homosexuality is genetic can be cured by faith, as if its some sort of disease.

Third Paragraph. Its both. People lack the fortitude to think for themselves and are manipulated to believing that whatever alies them is the fault of the minority group. Its scapegoating pure and simple.

 

[The Other Guy]

I do not believe that a person was born into being gay, I don't know if brainwashing has anything to do with it...i mean, you have your tv, radio, public love...nothing wrong there, but still, i wonder sometimes if our society is the ones to blame...idk...jmo...my question still though is, when do they realize they're gay?

Probably in the locker room in high school... :sarc:

 

[TogaOga]

thank you TOG, i never thought of the locker rooms...

 

[pixiedustboo]

i wonder sometimes if our society is the ones to blame

ME TOO!!!



P.S. You can preach politeness without preaching tolerance. I believe people throw the word tolerance around as another way of saying do not have any of your own beliefs. Whether they be moral or religious, or both.

It's a hidden way of saying, "we should all think alike and think everything is okay and never hold anyone to any set standers." And there ARE set standers. Without those standers society would fall apart, there would be no rules...and it would be a trashy nut-house.