Not sure weather worth saying much...
But Hell, lets read!:firedevi:
http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/2010/07/your-turn-what-happens-if-we-leave-afghanistan/
TIME - What Happens if We Leave Afghanistan
Not sure weather worth saying much...
But Hell, lets read!:firedevi:
http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/2010/07/your-turn-what-happens-if-we-leave-afghanistan/
KJ
Active member
Nothing new, but I think this type of stories needs to be told for those who really haven´t gotten what we are doing in the Stan.
Some people still wont get it, that´s a damn shame but they have the right to be fu*king stupid.
BTW, here is the original article:
//KJ.
Some people still wont get it, that´s a damn shame but they have the right to be fu*king stupid.
BTW, here is the original article:
Our cover image this week is powerful, shocking and disturbing. It is a portrait of Aisha, a shy 18-year-old Afghan woman who was sentenced by a Taliban commander to have her nose and ears cut off for fleeing her abusive in-laws. Aisha posed for the picture and says she wants the world to see the effect a Taliban resurgence would have on the women of Afghanistan, many of whom have flourished in the past few years. Her picture is accompanied by a powerful story by our own Aryn Baker on how Afghan women have embraced the freedoms that have come from the defeat of the Taliban — and how they fear a Taliban revival. (See pictures of Afghan women and the return of the Taliban.)
I thought long and hard about whether to put this image on the cover of TIME. First, I wanted to make sure of Aisha's safety and that she understood what it would mean to be on the cover. She knows that she will become a symbol of the price Afghan women have had to pay for the repressive ideology of the Taliban. We also confirmed that she is in a secret location protected by armed guards and sponsored by the NGO Women for Afghan Women. Aisha will head to the U.S. for reconstructive surgery sponsored by the Grossman Burn Foundation, a humanitarian organization in California. We are supporting that effort. (Watch TIME's video on photographing Aisha for the cover.)
I'm acutely aware that this image will be seen by children, who will undoubtedly find it distressing. We have consulted with a number of child psychologists about its potential impact. Some think children are so used to seeing violence in the media that the image will have little effect, but others believe that children will find it very scary and distressing — that they will see it, as Dr. Michael Rich, director of the Center on Media and Child Health at Children's Hospital Boston, said, as "a symbol of bad things that can happen to people." I showed it to my two young sons, 9 and 12, who both immediately felt sorry for Aisha and asked why anyone would have done such harm to her. I apologize to readers who find the image too strong, and I invite you to comment on the image's impact. (Comment on this cover.)
But bad things do happen to people, and it is part of our job to confront and explain them. In the end, I felt that the image is a window into the reality of what is happening — and what can happen — in a war that affects and involves all of us. I would rather confront readers with the Taliban's treatment of women than ignore it. I would rather people know that reality as they make up their minds about what the U.S. and its allies should do in Afghanistan. (See the cover story "Afghan Women and the Return of the Taliban.")
The much publicized release of classified documents by WikiLeaks has already ratcheted up the debate about the war. Our story and the haunting cover image by the distinguished South African photographer Jodi Bieber are meant to contribute to that debate. We do not run this story or show this image either in support of the U.S. war effort or in opposition to it. We do it to illuminate what is actually happening on the ground. As lawmakers and citizens begin to sort through the information about the war and make up their minds, our job is to provide context and perspective on one of the most difficult foreign policy issues of our time. What you see in these pictures and our story is something that you cannot find in those 91,000 documents: a combination of emotional truth and insight into the way life is lived in that difficult land and the consequences of the important decisions that lie ahead.
I thought long and hard about whether to put this image on the cover of TIME. First, I wanted to make sure of Aisha's safety and that she understood what it would mean to be on the cover. She knows that she will become a symbol of the price Afghan women have had to pay for the repressive ideology of the Taliban. We also confirmed that she is in a secret location protected by armed guards and sponsored by the NGO Women for Afghan Women. Aisha will head to the U.S. for reconstructive surgery sponsored by the Grossman Burn Foundation, a humanitarian organization in California. We are supporting that effort. (Watch TIME's video on photographing Aisha for the cover.)
I'm acutely aware that this image will be seen by children, who will undoubtedly find it distressing. We have consulted with a number of child psychologists about its potential impact. Some think children are so used to seeing violence in the media that the image will have little effect, but others believe that children will find it very scary and distressing — that they will see it, as Dr. Michael Rich, director of the Center on Media and Child Health at Children's Hospital Boston, said, as "a symbol of bad things that can happen to people." I showed it to my two young sons, 9 and 12, who both immediately felt sorry for Aisha and asked why anyone would have done such harm to her. I apologize to readers who find the image too strong, and I invite you to comment on the image's impact. (Comment on this cover.)
But bad things do happen to people, and it is part of our job to confront and explain them. In the end, I felt that the image is a window into the reality of what is happening — and what can happen — in a war that affects and involves all of us. I would rather confront readers with the Taliban's treatment of women than ignore it. I would rather people know that reality as they make up their minds about what the U.S. and its allies should do in Afghanistan. (See the cover story "Afghan Women and the Return of the Taliban.")
The much publicized release of classified documents by WikiLeaks has already ratcheted up the debate about the war. Our story and the haunting cover image by the distinguished South African photographer Jodi Bieber are meant to contribute to that debate. We do not run this story or show this image either in support of the U.S. war effort or in opposition to it. We do it to illuminate what is actually happening on the ground. As lawmakers and citizens begin to sort through the information about the war and make up their minds, our job is to provide context and perspective on one of the most difficult foreign policy issues of our time. What you see in these pictures and our story is something that you cannot find in those 91,000 documents: a combination of emotional truth and insight into the way life is lived in that difficult land and the consequences of the important decisions that lie ahead.
//KJ.
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A Can of Man
Je suis aware
This war is as justified as they get.
Failure here would be a major triumph of evil.
Failure here would be a major triumph of evil.
03USMC
Active member
NATO leaving Astan will create a power vacuum. Guess who's waiting to fill that. The Khazari administration won't last a hot minute before it's toasted from within or without. Guess who's waiting in the wings? They know how to control a largely uneducated population, they've done it before. Factor in tribal differences and Astan returns to the 7th Century douchebaggery of the Taliban, in about half a heart beat.
Tough one!
Staying in, doesn't get appreciated, because of "foreign ISAF"; influence from TaliFu$ks is accepted as there is too big of a gap between present there and world today + religion gets promoted/ covered by. On a top of locals distancing themselves from current NATO supported "troops", central government is as corrupt as it can be (alien structure to tribal country anyway), neighboring countries don't really want A-stan to succeed and yes- as soon as ISAF patrol leaves village Talibs are straight back, if to leave country all together- as you say- minute or two and all was for nothing. the way out, I believe to get as many locals in to the combined control groups and keep smaller, but localized units in every gorge and village until arms supply is dried out/disputes would become managable by local police(in towns) and tribal elders(in villages) perhaps... :sarc:
Back to the article: to us fact of a young mutulated girl, to them a sinister wife; to us inhuman treatment, to them rightful punishment for grave sins and it with mercy- she's still alive. I have already accepted the fact, that our morals and believes are hard to implement on ever so different nation (nations- much more accurately) and ordinary people out of poverty and despair is turning in to religion more than society, where weirdos interpenetrates in to something like Talib rules.
Micha
Active member
It may well be that we are not in Afghanistan to develop a European or an American democracy. But we are there to develop a democracy as an effective bulwark against terrorism.
But must you accept partial female oppression and partial free speech freedoms? Or should we demand that democracy means literally, so that when we one day leave Afghanistan, we leave a thriving community that has developed democratic freedoms modes that makes the idea of the extreme part of the Taliban return to power unimaginable? At one point the NATO troops in Afghanistan, of course, most come home. But we are not yet there. Despite Karzai´s shortcomings and electoral fraud, he is the best card and we will have to live with him. There is hardly an alternative. Progress has been dearly bought. Therefore, it is also bitter that a democratic process has not functioned optimally. But far worse is the fact that some politicians and some in the military lose courage and support for the many who are fighting for reconstruction in Afghanistan. The alternative is not there. If we pull out now, the Taliban will be back at full strength. We must focus on the small but decisive steps forward. You must have been a great optimist to have believed that Afghanistan by now would be a perfect society. Therefore, it is disappointing that there are politicians who, spiritually speaking, have started the withdrawal. The thousands who are struggling with the democratic forces in Afghanistan do not deserve that. They deserve politicians who stand firm.
But must you accept partial female oppression and partial free speech freedoms? Or should we demand that democracy means literally, so that when we one day leave Afghanistan, we leave a thriving community that has developed democratic freedoms modes that makes the idea of the extreme part of the Taliban return to power unimaginable? At one point the NATO troops in Afghanistan, of course, most come home. But we are not yet there. Despite Karzai´s shortcomings and electoral fraud, he is the best card and we will have to live with him. There is hardly an alternative. Progress has been dearly bought. Therefore, it is also bitter that a democratic process has not functioned optimally. But far worse is the fact that some politicians and some in the military lose courage and support for the many who are fighting for reconstruction in Afghanistan. The alternative is not there. If we pull out now, the Taliban will be back at full strength. We must focus on the small but decisive steps forward. You must have been a great optimist to have believed that Afghanistan by now would be a perfect society. Therefore, it is disappointing that there are politicians who, spiritually speaking, have started the withdrawal. The thousands who are struggling with the democratic forces in Afghanistan do not deserve that. They deserve politicians who stand firm.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
I think creating something in our image is misguided.
Solutions are as diverse as the problems themselves.
However, the Taliban need to be terminated.
If we cannot win the hearts and minds of people being oppressed by the Taliban, we won't be able to win the hearts and minds in ANY conflict.
Solutions are as diverse as the problems themselves.
However, the Taliban need to be terminated.
If we cannot win the hearts and minds of people being oppressed by the Taliban, we won't be able to win the hearts and minds in ANY conflict.
Please don't ban me for this (might sound extremely prejudiced)...
Afghan nation in whole is way undereducated and is living day to day, without clear understanding on how to go forward them-self, so if "us" try to help and teach them better way forward- we get brushed aside unless we pay money, whilst disillusioned Talibs have got upper hand in being "brothers" by culture and most importantly religion.
No good results/examples economic and security in a village with ISAF- not ever the hearts war is going to be won!
BTW phrase: " you can not buy Afgan! you can buy his loyalty for load of money and for a very short time... " has been brought back from USSR intervention by my cousin, that served and survived.
Afghan nation in whole is way undereducated and is living day to day, without clear understanding on how to go forward them-self, so if "us" try to help and teach them better way forward- we get brushed aside unless we pay money, whilst disillusioned Talibs have got upper hand in being "brothers" by culture and most importantly religion.
No good results/examples economic and security in a village with ISAF- not ever the hearts war is going to be won!
BTW phrase: " you can not buy Afgan! you can buy his loyalty for load of money and for a very short time... " has been brought back from USSR intervention by my cousin, that served and survived.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
That is certainly a very strong point as well.
What if they would rather die than side with someone who's not the same religion?
What might come as a surprise is a number of South Korean soldiers converted to Islam prior to deployment to Iraq and Afghanistan. I wonder what sort of impact that had in their operations.
What if they would rather die than side with someone who's not the same religion?
What might come as a surprise is a number of South Korean soldiers converted to Islam prior to deployment to Iraq and Afghanistan. I wonder what sort of impact that had in their operations.
KJ
Active member
This is bollocks.
Firstly the Taleban are killing as many if not more civilians as the coalition, only they pay "blood money" faster and to the correct source.
Secondly, we are overestimating the support for the Taleban that is shown once we have bounded a few villages together to defend themselves.
It´s a pretty good deterrent and Taleban influence over that area are dwindeling.
This is however a timeconsuming effort, but it´s what we have to do now since we dropped the ball 7 years ago.
During the early stages of the invsion we were set up for success.
I doubt noone in modern history has been that close to changing leadership in Afgh and getting people to go along with it.
A good FID/UW program and in small scale winning hearts and minds.
Then someone decided the troops on the ground were needed elsewhere and were replaced with other troops not trained for this kind of job.
Now we are going to need the right resources and above all time, something that the attention span of western society will hardly give us.
We won´t change Afgh into a McDonalds eating western civilization but I think most people have guessed that by now.
It was never about that to start with.
What we can do, and what we set out to do from the start is to give the people of Afgh a realistic option to the Taleban leadership.
One they are ready to defend on their own.
MHO on the subject.
//KJ.
OK I'll have to come clean about one more already mentioned factor- many tribes/nations and very different attitude towards ISAF
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/afghanistan_ethno_1982.jpg
from 1982
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/afghanistan_ethno_1982.jpg
from 1982
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'kay then!
The map is old, as stated, but we are not wining the war of hearts so far, your strong believes doesn't really materialize as our understanding of humanity/society have very different value there. To add another headline catching incident:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/a.../index.html?hpt=T2#fbid=yKXgw9EhIcj&wom=false
Pregnant widow accused of adultery executed by Taliban
The map is old, as stated, but we are not wining the war of hearts so far, your strong believes doesn't really materialize as our understanding of humanity/society have very different value there. To add another headline catching incident:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/a.../index.html?hpt=T2#fbid=yKXgw9EhIcj&wom=false
Pregnant widow accused of adultery executed by Taliban
KJ
Active member
'kay then!
The map is old, as stated, but we are not wining the war of hearts so far, your strong believes doesn't really materialize as our understanding of humanity/society have very different value there. To add another headline catching incident:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/a.../index.html?hpt=T2#fbid=yKXgw9EhIcj&wom=false
Pregnant widow accused of adultery executed by Taliban
This is another great example why the Taleban are an unexeptable ruling body..Well this and their harboring terrorist networks.
As you can see from the article you yourself posted this was not done in a village where ISAF has precence.
Your understanding of the Afghan situation is flawed sir.
You think people want to live like this.
Not if given a choice.
Northern alliance anyone?
A number of districts banded together to fight the Taleban regime.
Do they eat McDonalds, no.
Did they want to get rid of the Taleban, yes.
Didn´t matter that they were different tribes or even people.
Another related "news"
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704268004575417293032620332.html
Karzai Slams 'Foreign Advisers'
Afghan Leader Seeks Ban on Private Security Firms,Escalating Tensions With U.S.
Dont get me wrong- I dream we'd succeed, but so many things are rotten through about this country, that all of the efforts are getting more and more distant to any goal to achieve in foreseeable future
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704268004575417293032620332.html
Karzai Slams 'Foreign Advisers'
Afghan Leader Seeks Ban on Private Security Firms,Escalating Tensions With U.S.
Dont get me wrong- I dream we'd succeed, but so many things are rotten through about this country, that all of the efforts are getting more and more distant to any goal to achieve in foreseeable future
KJ
Active member
Disagree, security is.
Then religion and tribalculture. Not many tribes support the Taleban activly.
They do not however have the capacity to stand up against them alone..
Reread my posts (or atleast read them), all of them.
we have to agree to disagree on what is really matter and order of to whole nation of Afghanistan. Just going to add, that, apart from numbers of potentially supporting Talibs are bigger, than, the ones oppose (tribal population ways) and attacks/insurgency is opening in previously believed to be "talib free" areas lately