Was the Tiger I/II a waste of resources?

The thing is when you already have design in the form of the Jagdpanzer-IV that offered good crew survivability, was capable of going head to head with anything on the opposite side and winning, could be manufactured quickly without major retooling and used less resources to make than the obsolete design that it was made from at a time when you are low on resources why wouldn't you focus on that design.
To start making Jagdpanthers and Jagdtigers was stupid as it just added to logistics nightmare when you already had a design that was tested and found sufficient for the job, by all means carry on the development of new designs and use the time granted by mass production of Jpz-IV to thoroughly test them.
 
German

MontyB said:
The thing is when you already have design in the form of the Jagdpanzer-IV that offered good crew survivability, was capable of going head to head with anything on the opposite side and winning, could be manufactured quickly without major retooling and used less resources to make than the obsolete design that it was made from at a time when you are low on resources why wouldn't you focus on that design.
To start making Jagdpanthers and Jagdtigers was stupid as it just added to logistics nightmare when you already had a design that was tested and found sufficient for the job, by all means carry on the development of new designs and use the time granted by mass production of Jpz-IV to thoroughly test them.
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I didn’t know that a Jagdtiger was made? Production for the Jagdpather began in early 44 and only 392 were built. It was likely the wars best Tank destroyer of the war, however it was not easily produced and fell into the same category as the Tiger designs, see my earlier post.

As I stated the issue that plagued the Germans was the number of different armored vehicles fielded over the course of the war. I believe between 1939 and 1945 they fielded at least 29 different armored vehicles, yes some were variations on a theme but that's an incredible amount of different machines. It made no sense why they were still producing obsolete designs and at the same time they were over designing machines which couldn't be produced in a high enough volume to make a difference.

The machine that likely produced the most kills for Germany was Panzer V AUSF G "2nd panther design" which was designed as a result of input from the troops in the field.

Unlike the USA and USSR which focused on a handful of designs that at times were inferior to some of Germany's higher end armored vehicles. They produced 10 of thousands of these things. Sure they were up-gunned and modified, but the design was basically the same for the Sherman and the T-34 for the course of the war.
Repeating a statement: theirs a certain quality in quality.
 
Indeed 80+ were made and it was a complete failure due to excessive weight.

Jagdtiger ("Hunting Tiger") is the common name of a German heavy tank destroyer of World War II. The official German designation was Panzerjäger Tiger Ausf. B as it was based on a lengthened Tiger II chassis. The ordnance inventory designation was Sd. Kfz. 186. The Jagdtiger was the heaviest armored fighting vehicle operationally used during World War II and the world's heaviest tank which were ever built in series to date. The vehicle carried a 128 mm PaK 44 L/55 main gun, capable of out-ranging and defeating any fielded Allied tank. It saw service in small numbers from late 1944 to the end of the war on both the Western and Eastern Front. Tiger ace Otto Carius commanded a company of Jagdtigers. His post-war memoir provides a rare combat history of the Jagdtigers which had been under his command. Although 150 were ordered, only between 77 and 88 were produced. Due to an excessive weight the Jagdtiger was continuously plagued with mechanical problems. Today, three Jagdtigers survive in museums.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdtiger
 
And the Hunting Tiger Tank Destroyer was made by 2 companies, both similar but to each company's design. That certainly didn't help
 
dead end designs the Elephant

Panzerjäger Tiger Ausf. B sounds like it's in a tie with the Elephant made by Porsche for the worse armed vehicle produced by Germany. Only 90 Elephants were build in a 42 43 time frame. They were used at Kursk and fared poorly.
It's hard to believe they fielded vehicles as complex as these which had many issues.

Credit should be give to the Jagdpanther since it performed so well (as did the Tiger 1) in the field even though it was part of this ridicules production situation in Germany that would have benefited much from skipping these monstrosities and producing higher quantities of the known good armored fighting vehicles such as the 2nd panther design and the Jagdpanzer-IV
 
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JOC said:
Panzerjäger Tiger Ausf. B sounds like it's in a tie with the Elephant made by Porsche for the worse armed vehicle produced by Germany. Only 90 Elephants were build in a 42 43 time frame. They were used at Kursk and fared poorly.
It's hard to believe they fielded vehicles as complex as these which had many issues.
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The SdKfz. 184 was not as bad an AFV as it is portrayed though, much is made of its failure at Kursk but then the SdKfz. 171 was also a failure at Kursk however the role of the Elephant was as a long range tank and anti-tank gun killer and in that role it was one of the most successful tank destroyers in the German arsenal with a kill/loss ratio of 10:1.

Once again though it was a vehicle that was too heavy.
 
MontyB said:
The SdKfz. 184 was not as bad an AFV as it is portrayed though, much is made of its failure at Kursk but then the SdKfz. 171 was also a failure at Kursk however the role of the Elephant was as a long range tank and anti-tank gun killer and in that role it was one of the most successful tank destroyers in the German arsenal with a kill/loss ratio of 10:1.

Once again though it was a vehicle that was too heavy.
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This impressive firepower and protection, gave it an enormous advantage when used in head-on combat or in a defensive role. However, poor mobility and mechanical issues greatly diminished its operational capability, many had to be abandoned. It weight also made it impossible for the vehicle to climb up higher gradients. It also found it very difficult traveling on many roads due to it's bulk - weight. It was one of the slowest armored vehicles produced by Germany.
 
Again it was never designed or envisaged as a fast moving tank killer and it wasn't however it was designed and built as a long range tank killer that operated from within German lines and in that role it was the most successful tank killer of the war.
 
Overall on Germanys Armor

The Ferdinand Elephant may have been the most successful tank destroyer employed during the war based on average kill ratio of approximately 10:1. However, poor mobility and mechanical unreliability greatly diminished its operational capability so I can't rate it as #1 overall.
The German line on the Eastern front was anything but Static. After all they could only produce 90 of them.

Where as the Jagdpather took a heavy toll on allied and Soviet tanks and was mobile "as were both fronts" and at least semi producible seeing as they were able to make ~ 400 of the things. If I had to choose Germany's best Tank destroyer this would be a more logical choice. However this may be a moot point since each vehicle filled it's niche very well.

However Tigers (1 and 2), Jagdpather, Jagdtiger and Elephant were all part of Germanys effort to outsize it opponents. This complicated their ability to produce higher volume, easier to service armored vehicles.

Many of these larger vehicles were abandoned due to fact that it was very difficult to toe them. Also they took to much fuel to run these vehicles which was much more of an issue for Germany than for the Allies or the USSR.
 
The Tiger was designed to counter the T34, if you look at the 60 ton Super Tiger then it looks very much like the tanks of today.

V1 & V2 now if had not been for Bomber Commands raid which destroyed their base in Baltic then the course of the war could have been different. Had these things fallen in England in the numbers planned it would have been difficult for the Allies to muster their forces for D Day. Although I never found the V1 worrying as you had a bit of time to get out of the way, but if the numbers planned by Germans fell on England they even by chance inflict they would do a lot of damage.
 
LeEnfield said:
The Tiger was designed to counter the T34, if you look at the 60 ton Super Tiger then it looks very much like the tanks of today.

V1 & V2 now if had not been for Bomber Commands raid which destroyed their base in Baltic then the course of the war could have been different. Had these things fallen in England in the numbers planned it would have been difficult for the Allies to muster their forces for D Day. Although I never found the V1 worrying as you had a bit of time to get out of the way, but if the numbers planned by Germans fell on England they even by chance inflict they would do a lot of damage.
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The Tiger can not have been designed to counter the T-34 when the Tiger was designed in 1937 and the first prototypes of the T-34 were not built until 1940, I think it is more accurate to say that the production of the Tiger was accelerated to counter the T-34 not that it was designed to counter it.
 
The King Tiger "Tiger II" was about the same weight as the M1 Abrams. The Abrams is considered the modern heavy weight. BTW the Panther tanks and the Jagdpanzer-IV were capable of taking on T-34's.

The Allied bombing of Peenemunde certainly set Germany's rocket program back, however they sprung back quite well, considering the setback.

The Messerschmitt ME 262 may have had the potential to be a war winner if it was used as designed is 43, rather than redesigning it to be a fighter-bomber which took the speed out of it. They then went about redesigning it again to be a fighter later in April 44 at which time Germany had neither adequate fuel or concert runways for the plane takeoff. Hitler rejected arguments that the aircraft would be more effective as a fighter against the Allied bombers. The fighters flew at a top speed of 541MPH. By war's end, the Me 262 had accounted for 509 claimed Allied kills against approximately 100 losses.

Guess the rocket conversation got me off track.
 
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In 1945 the Americans insisted that their bomber formations were escorted by the Gloucester Meteor over Germany, so Britain then stationed a few squadrons of them around Brussels to counter the Me 262. Still there was no known meeting between the two planes
 
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axis Jet meets allied Jet

LeEnfield said:
In 1945 the Americans insisted that their bomber formations were escorted by the Gloucester Meteor over Germany, so Britain then stationed a few squadrons of them around Brussels to counter the Me 262. Still there was known meeting between the two planes
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It would prove interesting to see the outcome of this air combat? Interesting I never knew that the Brits made enough of these to replace the Mustang as the main bomber escort. Perhaps this was during the final few months?

My point was the Germans basically had the ME - 262: a very capable jet "fast and with accurate cannons" ready to be used as a fighter in early 43 when it could have made a difference, but bungled it. A wonder weapon wasted.
 
JOC said:
It would prove interesting to see the outcome of this air combat? Interesting I never knew that the Brits made enough of these to replace the Mustang as the main bomber escort. Perhaps this was during the final few months?

My point was the Germans basically had the ME - 262: a very capable jet "fast and with accurate cannons" ready to be used as a fighter in early 43 when it could have made a difference, but bungled it. A wonder weapon wasted.
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And thank god it was "wasted"...Let us not forget who were the bad guys in this conflict...I see too often these washovers of history trying to describe the German war machine as misguided but noble...it largely wasn't and it is a GOOD thing they lost.
 
Please see the tread "Victims of the Nazi's Genocide total viewpoint." They were a menace.
 
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