Talented German commanders. - Page 6




 
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April 1st, 2014  
JOC
 
 

Topic: I Agree


Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I wont argue with Manstein but I would like to give an honorable mention to two others that probably will not be mentioned otherwise.

1. Hermann Hoth the job he did with the 4th Panzer Army at Kursk and in the attempt to relieve the 6th Army at Stalingrad was incredible given the conditions.

2. Gotthard Heinrici, I think he was a very competent defensive commander as shown outside Moscow (41/42) and at Seelow Heights (45).
The tactics at the Seelow Height was brilliant. Zuchov was caught off guard completely and paid a heavy price despite the > 3:1 odds. Heinrici deserves much credit for this action.
April 1st, 2014  
JOC
 
 
I think we could back and forth forever on this one. I like the April fools day answer rather than arguement
April 1st, 2014  
JOC
 
 

Topic: Tigers


Quote:
Originally Posted by lljadw
I doubt the wisdom for the Germans of producing in 1943 and the PzIV,and the Panther,and the Tiger (and more than 10 variants of those).The point also is than only few Tigers were produced (only 130 were present in Normandy) and that only a small % was operational .
All varieties of Tiger Tanks including King Tiger produced came to only ~2000 Tanks during the duration of the war. Consider the Soviets produced at least 55,000 T-34's and the Americans produced > 50,000 Shermanís (although some of these went to the Pacific theater). I think quantity beat quality especially since the Tigers never completely got over their mechanical concerns. However they were a presence on the battle field just not enough of them.
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April 2nd, 2014  
MontyB
 
 
It is hard to say whether the Tiger was a good or bad investment, I would suggest that if http://www.alanhamby.com/losses.shtml is correct and the Tigers had close to a 6 to 1 kill/loss record they may have been better off focusing on the Tiger alone.

My personal belief is that from 1944 onwards the PzKpfwIV should have been reconstructed into the Sd.Kfz. 162 and Germany focused solely on the PzKpfwV Panther as its fighting tank scrapping both the PzKpfwVI and VI Ausf B
April 2nd, 2014  
JOC
 
 
One you don't hear much about was a German tank destroyer the StuG. The Red army and the Allied army's suffered high losses as a result of this armored vehicle until the end of 43-early 44. The main factories where it was made were destroyed as a result of allied bombing and production fell. They supposedly made over 10000 of these. This was a simpler design more well suited to mass production.
April 2nd, 2014  
lljadw
 
Yes and no

Tank production(without Jagdpanzer)

42:2476

43:5663

44:7795

45:956


StuG

42:789

43:3042

44:4999

45:988

Sturmartillerie (StuH)

42:34

43:270

44:1209

45:112

In 1945 (only) the production of the StuG was going down,as was the production of the Tanks and Sturmartillerie.And,it is questionable that the cause was the allied air attacks .

The decrease of the StuG production in 1945 was relatively less than that of the panzer production :

panzer: 1944 : 7800; 1945 (converted to one year) : 3000 =38 %

StuG : 1944 : 5000 ; 1944 : (also converted) : 3000 = 60 %
April 2nd, 2014  
JOC
 
 
The StuG factories were bombed at the end of 43 to the point where production fell by > 90 %. I’m much opposed to all Nazi Germany stood for. However their wartime economy must be credited for its ability to bounce back from the devastating allied bombing.
I don’t remember the exact numbers but from 43 on, often > 1000 bombers a day rained carnage on German industry and it’s civilians as well. 140,000 allied airmen died in the European theater, the lions share in bombing raids. For every Ton of bombs that feel on England > 100 Tons of bombs fell on Germany. Yes they weren’t as accurate as the modern B-1B Lancer.
However they carried large payloads and there were 100’s of them dropping bombs simultaneously on a given target. The rational was get close enough to the target and saturates the area with bombs and you will damage - destroy the target.
The Germans often spread production to smaller plants some hidden in the countryside, etc. For this Speer was quite a genius. Despite the bombing the Germans production continued to increase well trough 44. One can only wonder without the allied bombing how much more equipment they would have produced.
April 2nd, 2014  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOC
The StuG factories were bombed at the end of 43 to the point where production fell by > 90 %. Iím much opposed to all Nazi Germany stood for. However their wartime economy must be credited for its ability to bounce back from the devastating allied bombing.
I donít remember the exact numbers but from 43 on, often > 1000 bombers a day rained carnage on German industry and itís civilians as well. 140,000 allied airmen died in the European theater, the lions share in bombing raids. For every Ton of bombs that feel on England > 100 Tons of bombs fell on Germany. Yes they werenít as accurate as the modern B-1B Lancer.
However they carried large payloads and there were 100ís of them dropping bombs simultaneously on a given target. The rational was get close enough to the target and saturates the area with bombs and you will damage - destroy the target.
The Germans often spread production to smaller plants some hidden in the countryside, etc. For this Speer was quite a genius. Despite the bombing the Germans production continued to increase well trough 44. One can only wonder without the allied bombing how much more equipment they would have produced.

After 1942 I am not sure there was a lot of value in the StuGs, they were good as artillery support and armour defense in an army going forward but they were not really good enough at either role in an army in retreat.

My belief is that they also should have been scrapped as part of an effort to streamline production thereby increasing production of vehicles they desperately needed.

I remain somewhat convinced that Pz-IV production should have been converted to the Jagdpanzer IV thus reducing the cost of the Pz-IV in value, raw materials and increased production without reducing its combat effectiveness and they should have focused on building a much smaller force of Panthers, scrapping both the Tiger I and II and instead looking toward the Panther II.

As for the effectiveness of the bomber campaign after the war the Americans carried out a study of the campaign and one of the conclusions they reached was that it may have actually helped improve German production by forcing the dispersal thus making it impossible to stop and less prone to disruption.
April 2nd, 2014  
JOC
 
 

Topic: Allied Bombing


I’ll have to research the StuG. I thought that it was very widely at Kursk and used even into 44?
This goes against what I've learned concerning the Allied bombing, however it did have the effect you mentioned. It was much to the Germans credit to setup new facilities and move things about rather rapidly. The effect of some raids is hard to deny however: the dams that produced the hydro-electric power, the ball bearing plants and to a certain extent slowing production at the Romanian oil fields.
Bomber Harris Galvanized the people behind their country with his terror tactics, similar to the German bombing and rocket attacks galvanized the British, which may have helped the German efforts.
However another factor from what I understand by late 43, > 80% of the Luftwaffe was removed from Eastern front to fight off the allied air attacks. Leaving them more venerable to Red ground-air attach aircraft.
April 2nd, 2014  
JOC
 
 

Topic: StuG's


It appears it’s hard to keep track of the wide variety of German armored vehicles produced during the WW2. Perhaps this was a weak point to much diverge, I’ve heard this mentioned. Too many vehicles too many different parts.
Anyways The StuG III AUSF B assault gun was only produced until 1941 and was not that heavily armored. This was corrected in 1942 with the more robust StuG III AUSF G. This was produced into 1945 and ~ 8000 were made. They proved effective in the USSR and fared well in the Kurst operation.
 


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