Tactical Feasibility of Israeli Strike on Iran

Dean said:
Cruise missiles have a ground definition radar which continuously compares the ground below the missile to the recording that was previously uploaded into the missile.

Umm, well, no. Cruise missiles are missiles that cruise, that is travel through the atmosphere via some aerodynamic process versus a ballistic missile. Both are distinguished from the ballistic missiles cousin, the rocket, in that they both have guidance.

Such guidance could be a ground mapping radar. It could also be INS, GPS, pre-programmed flight path, etc.

Here's a fine example:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/c-201.htm

Getting back to the point. Neither stealth nor effective cruise missile capability is available to the Israelis should they make the stupid decision to strike Iran. Their realistic options are limited to a quick and hopefully effective airstrike. Beyond that, their ability to project power beyond their immediate borders is pretty limited, barring their own use of nuclear weapons.

Now, how about we set aside the pedantics and address the question at hand?
 
Insight said:
Umm, well, no. Cruise missiles are missiles that cruise, that is travel through the atmosphere via some aerodynamic process versus a ballistic missile. Both are distinguished from the ballistic missiles cousin, the rocket, in that they both have guidance.

Such guidance could be a ground mapping radar. It could also be INS, GPS, pre-programmed flight path, etc.

Here's a fine example:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/c-201.htm

Getting back to the point. Neither stealth nor effective cruise missile capability is available to the Israelis should they make the stupid decision to strike Iran. Their realistic options are limited to a quick and hopefully effective airstrike. Beyond that, their ability to project power beyond their immediate borders is pretty limited, barring their own use of nuclear weapons.

Now, how about we set aside the pedantics and address the question at hand?

Umm, well yes. Here are descriptions of the two guidances systems currently used in US type cruise missiles. The link that you gave was for the Chinese systems, AKA the Silkworm missile, which is good against ships but completely useless against ground based targets.

TERCOM - Terrain Contour Matching. An in flight altimeter meaures the height from the TLAM to the ground and the missile will check to see if it is in the right spot from the height. It will make corrections if it does match the prestored height


DSMAC - Digital Scene Matching Area Correlation. A small image is taken of the flight path and downloaded into the TLAM before it is launched. During the flight the missile will verify that the images that is has stored correlates with the image it sees below itself. If the pictures do not match it will correct itself and then finish its mission.

FYI, the digital image that is taken by the missile guidance system is made using a terrain mapping radar, and keep in mind that the the in flight altimeter is in fact a radar altimeter, not an air pressure type. My use of the term ground definition radar may have confused some, as I meant ground mapping radar. Sorry about that.
At the time that these missiles were originally fielded, GPS was in the final planning stages and the entire constellation of satellites was not yet launched. So the original set of cruise missiles did not include GPS navigation systems, but I do not know if GPS was added to the later versions.

Getting back to the point, Iran's development of nuclear warheads is very worrisome for Israel and it is a direct threat to their security, in fact, far more of a threat than was Saddam Hussein to the US. If you believe that it was a good idea for the US to attack Iraq to protect American national security, how can you possibly think that it is different for Israel? Looking at the strategic situation in which Israel finds itself, Iranian nuclear weapons would be the number one threat to Israeli security... bar none. Given the very small size of the country, one medium sized nuclear weapon could effectively destroy 90 percent of Israel's most populated towns and cities. None of the so-called "front line states" of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt could launch so devastating an attack on Israel, and everybody knows it. It would be the same thing as if Cuba were a well-armed country that the US could not take on directly without very serious losses. Furthermore, imagine that this well-armed Cuba had often stated that they were dedicated to the destruction of the US. Then, imagine that Cuba could launch one weapon that could destroy the entire US eastern seaboard. If Iran develops nuclear weapons and the cability of delivering them, this is what Israel will be facing. It would be very easy to imaging them launching a pre-emptive strike to avoid this scenario. In fact, when Cuba did begin building a nuclear capability with Soviet help, the US reaction was swift and overwhelming. But Cuba is an island, unfortunately for Israel, Iran is not, so blockading them never was an option.
As I stated somewhere, my knowledge of Israeli strategic weapons was somewhat behind the times, so I decided to try to see what is new with them. As I no longer have access to my former sources, I have to rely on the better unclassified sources that are out there. The best ones that I have seen are Avation Week and Space Technology and Janes Defense Weekly, followed by http://www.Globalsecurity.org . I was quite surprised to see that the Israelis did indeed modify their subs to allow the use of their Popeye Turbo cruise missiles and that the Popeye has been successfully tested and is probably operational. In addition, the German shipyard that built their Dolphin class subs received a contract to build 2 more subs, but that contract was later cancelled by Israel. However, the Germans did provide technical assistance to the Israelis to allow the modification of the launch tubes, possibly to allow the use of nuclear weapons. If true, and it probably is, this gives the Israelis three very real tactical choices for attacking Iran. If the Iranian gov't continues on its current course of pissing off the entire world, it may well leave the Israelis very little choice in the matter. They know they are the first target.
For more info on the Israeli sub program, check out http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/israel/sub.htm

Insight, you asked whether or not the Israelis had the capability to deliver conventional warheads to Iran. Look at http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/israel/jericho-2.htm , and check out the payload figures and descriptions. They tell the whole story. The range from Tel Aviv to Tehran is 1585 Kilometers.

Dean.
 
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Dean, you should try to be a little more precise in your terminology. I never said that cruise missiles don't use radar guidance. What I was stating was that not ALL cruise missiles use radar guidance, nor is it what distinguishes them from other types of missiles. What distinguishes a cruise missile from either ballistic missiles or unguided rockets is their use of aerodynamic principles to travel through the atmosphere, using whatever sort of guidance system the designers choose. It is not the guidance package that defines the missile, but how it gets from point A to B.

As for the Jericho, payload figures mean nothing if they haven't designed a conventional warhead for the weapon. Minutemen III ICBM's have sufficient payload capacity to carry a multitude of weapons, but they don't. I was asking for fact, not speculative musings.

Futhermore, I do not doubt that Iran's possession of a nuclear weapon would pose a significant threat to Israel. I just don't think an Israeli attack on Iran's nuclear related sites will a) help the situation or b) do anything more than delay the problem.
 
Insight said:
Insight said:
Dean, you should try to be a little more precise in your terminology. I never said that cruise missiles don't use radar guidance. What I was stating was that not ALL cruise missiles use radar guidance, nor is it what distinguishes them from other types of missiles. What distinguishes a cruise missile from either ballistic missiles or unguided rockets is their use of aerodynamic principles to travel through the atmosphere, using whatever sort of guidance system the designers choose. It is not the guidance package that defines the missile, but how it gets from point A to B.

Ok... Then why did you send me on a wild goose chase about Chinese missiles? And nobody, least of all me, ever questioned the difference between a ballistic missile and a cruise missile. Having lived in the testing area of a cruise missile, I know exactly what the difference is.

Insight said: As for the Jericho, payload figures mean nothing if they haven't designed a conventional warhead for the weapon. Minutemen III ICBM's have sufficient payload capacity to carry a multitude of weapons, but they don't. I was asking for fact, not speculative musings.

True. Now, re-read the bottom of the link I posted.

Insight said: Futhermore, I do not doubt that Iran's possession of a nuclear weapon would pose a significant threat to Israel. I just don't think an Israeli attack on Iran's nuclear related sites will a) help the situation or b) do anything more than delay the problem.

I would love to think that that is true. However, given Iran's political leanings and attitudes towards Israel, I cannot or will not blame Israel if they do launch a pre-emptive strike on either the reactors or the enrichment facilities. As for your b., It already worked once! Iraq never re-started their nuclear programs after the Israeli strike. Now, I just checked out your public profile and noticed that you are American. Just out of curiosity, did you support your country's war in Iraq? If yes, how can you support the Iraq war and then say that it is wrong for Israel to respond in kind?
 
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Dean said:
Insight said:

I would love to think that that is true. However, given Iran's political leanings and attitudes towards Israel, I cannot or will not blame Israel if they do launch a pre-emptive strike on either the reactors or the enrichment facilities. As for your b., It already worked once! Iraq never re-started their nuclear programs after the Israeli strike. Now, I just checked out your public profile and noticed that you are American. Just out of curiosity, did you support your country's war in Iraq? If yes, how can you support the Iraq war and then say that it is wrong for Israel to respond in kind?

You are putting words in my mouth. I never made any sort of moral judgement regarding an Israeli attack. Oddly, you seem to be advocating one. I will point out that a) Iran is not Iraq and b) there are consequences to every action. Consider the possible outcomes if Israel does choose to launch an attack. Do you expect the Iranians to just throw in the towel? I am not suggesting anything Israel does is right or wrong, though I will suggest that Israel's actions do not always result in the desired outcome. Read a bit about the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. Compare the objectives to the actual outcome. Heck, for another example of that take a look at the US invasion of Iraq. What's right doesn't necessarily mean smart.

Israel needs security, not bold gestures that may compound the problem.
 
Well put. I am however, very worried that if Iran develops a nuclear device, they will use it. Since the fall of the Shah, they have gone through different periods of what I call "closer to normal" and "more than a bit insane". Lately they seem to be leaning much closer to the latter, and instability and nukes do not make a good mix. Ya know, it's funny. North Korea is also close to developing nukes, and a lot of people are worried. I'm not. They are actually quite predictable, and also quite pragmatic. They are going to use their nuclear program to milk the negotiations for as long as they can and get some really good concessions for finally abandoning it. If they don't get what they want, they'll finish their program. Iran is a different kettle of fish. They are far less predictable, and that scares the bejeezus out of a lot of people, the Israelis most of all. That is why I would understand if the Israelis launch a pre-emptive strike, and I do not for one second believe it will be a nuclear strike. Do I want it to happen? Hell, no. Do I think it will happen? Unfortunately yes. Those who forget history are always doomed to repeat it. Iran is not paying any attention to history. The Israelis can't allow themselves to forget it.

BTW, we are getting more than a bit off-topic here. If you'd rather, we can continue this discussion either in another thread or as PMs. If others out there are still amused by us, we can always keep it here. What say you?

Dean.
 
Iran: Our Military Options

January 23, 2006 | Peter Brookes


A reporter last month asked Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, the Israel Defense Force's chief of staff, how far Israel is willing to go to stop Iran's nuclear (weapons) program; the general answered: "2,000 kilometers" -- the flying distance from Israel to Iran's key nuclear sites.


Keeping the military option on the table for dealing with the Mullahs of Mayhem's atomic intransigence makes good policy sense. Diplomacy and "soft power" options such as economic sanctions are always more effective when backed up by the credible threat of force.

Unfortunately, flattening Iran's nuclear infrastructure isn't easy or risk-free -- and could have serious consequences for American interests. The key challenge: the program is underground -- literally and figuratively.

Iran burrowed many sites deep below the soil, making them much tougher targets. (It also put some near populated areas to make civilian casualties a certainty if attacked.) And these are the sites we know about: At least two dozen nuclear-related sites are scattered across the country (which is four times California's size) -- but it may be more than 70.


By burying and dispersing its facilities, Iran is clearly trying to avoid the fate of Saddam Hussein's nuclear program back in 1981 -- when Israeli F-16 fighters, crossing Jordan and Saudi Arabia, destroyed Iraq's 40-megawatt Osiraq reactor in a dawn raid, effectively setting Saddam's nuke dreams back a decade.


An Israeli strike at Iran today might feature fighters carrying satellite-guided JDAM bombs, cruise missiles on diesel subs -- and Special Forces. But the task would be much tougher than the Osiraq strike, thanks to the number of targets and their dispersion, and the greater distances from any Israeli base.


What about U.S. airstrikes? These could take a range of forms, depending on policymakers' desires. Surgical strikes might limit their targets to Iran's air defenses (for access) and key nuclear sites (e.g., Bushehr, Nantanz, Arak). Or an escalated attack could nail all suspected nuke facilities -- plus forces Tehran might use in a counterattack, such as its ballistic missiles and conventional forces.

Depending on the strike's objective, think Operation Iraqi Freedom: B-2 stealth bombers carrying bunker-busters, F-117 stealth fighters and other Navy/Air Force strike assets from carriers and theater bases -- plus Navy destroyers and subs loosing cruise missiles on Iranian targets.


But could a raid destroy all sites? Thanks to the covert nature of the Iranian program, that's not clear. It's highly likely, though, that striking key facilities would set the program back, possibly causing Tehran to reconsider the folly of its proliferation perfidy.


But it's unlikely to be that simple. After an assault, Iran might lash out with a vengeance. We'd have to be fully prepared for some nasty blowback. Tehran and its terrorist toadies can brew up some serious trouble for both America and Israel -- or anyone else that supported an attack on the fundamentalist Islamic state.


The Iranian regime is already up to its neck in the insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan. It could certainly increase its financial/material support to the Sunni insurgents, Shia militants, al Qaeda, and the Taliban to destabilize the new Baghdad and Kabul governments -- and kill Coalition forces.


And don't forget about Iran's other "secret" weapon -- oil. As the world's No. 4 oil exporter, Tehran could rattle oil markets and major economies (e.g., Japan, South Korea, France, Italy) by slashing output. It could also mess with other nations' oil exports -- attacking tankers in the [Persian] Gulf using mines, subs, patrol boats or anti-ship missiles.

The mullahs could unleash their terrorist attack dogs Hezbollah, Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad against Israel, killing untold numbers in suicide attacks -- and scuttling any peace process prospects. Iran could also pound populous Tel Aviv with its Shahab missiles mated with chemical/biological warheads.


The U.S. homefront could get hit, too. Over the last few years, the FBI has evicted Iranian intel officers for surveilling New York City tourist/transport sites. Hezbollah has supporters -- and likely has operatives -- in America who might undertake acts of terrorism or sabotage U.S. ports or bases, too.


Iran now harbors at least 25 senior Al Qaeda operatives, including senior military commander Saif al Adel and three of Osama bin Laden's sons. If we come to blows, would Tehran help al Qaeda hit the U.S. homeland? (The offices of Iran's U.N. mission might facilitate such an attack. . .)

This doesn't mean we shouldn't use military might to interrupt or end Iran's nuclear gambit; it may be the best/only option. There are no easy answers, only tough choices.
But the military option has to stay on the table. Otherwise, it's a snap that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will let Tehran's nuclear genie out of the bottle.

http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,86142,00.html
 
Phoenix - That's a cool article but it HIGHLY overstates Iran's retaliatory capabilities. First off, Iran already tried to disrupt American oil supplies through millitary force in the Iran-Iraq war and if you know anything about that, it ended really bad for them after they made that move. The article also brought up the prospect of Iran-funded terrorism inside America. That would be even more stupid given America's hatred of terror-sponsoring states. If Iran was linked to a 9/11 type attack it would be leveled to the ground, if it was implicated in a WMD strike Iran would be the victim of a nuclear holocaust of such severity it would make Hitler blush.

The only viable option for Iran in a retaliatory fassion against America would be to sponsor the overthrow of Afghani and Iraqi governments, and that really isn't enough of a retallition in and of itself when the only other option is let Iran have nukes that can hit anywhere in Afghanistan and Iraq.
 
Israel is a very powerful country and mabie the most powerful country in the Middle-East. It's hard to say what Isreal would do, But i highly dought they will sit around wait for Syria, Iraq, or any other nations in the middle-east to pull there thumbs out of there rectums to say "Sure i guess you can fly in are air space". Israel has ussually been bomb now ask questions later. Although they might not have stealth or cruise missles, I'm sure they do have Radar jamming systems that would help on the 2000 mile trip from Israel to Tehran to blow the hell out of there missle sites. Who knows they might now even drop bombs, They might use special forces. But i would personally vote that they will bomb'em with Bunker Busters and MOABs and if they don't have thoughs weapons. I'm sure there good buddy the U.S.A. would be happy to help with selling or even giving them for the cause.
 
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