T-34(85) wasnt Red Army's only tank...

rovai

Active member
T34 was a great tank, almost the best in WW2(the best was IS2 ;) ). But there were other Russian(soviet) tanks, like KV-1,2 which were replaced by IS-1(wasnt that of a sucess in tank battles) and IS-2(in my opinion, the best tank of WW2).
Actually, it is not right to compare T34(which was developed before the war began) with later german tanks like PzKpfw V "Panther" modifications, not because Panhter was developed later, but simply beacause Panther was a DIFFERENT CLASS OF TANK. T-34 was a medium tank, Panther was a heavy tank. So, it would be right to compare Panther with an IS-2 tank. And panther is clearly loosing to the IS-2, both in armor terms and in arnament. For example, Panther Ausf G(latest mod of Panther) had 75mm KwK gun, and IS2 had 122!mm gun. Also, Panther had gaseline engine, while IS2 had diesel. Only real advantage panther had was greater speed(because of more powerful enginge).

If anybody wants, I can translate detailed charts of both Panther and IS2.

All data was taken from http://armor.kiev.ua/
 
Are you talking about panther?
If so:
When did panther had 120mm gun? The biggest gun ever used on panther was famous 88mm, which had nice range, but still wasnt match for IS2.And speed was gained by using gaseline engine, which was flamable like hell.
 
oh, sorry bout that :roll:
Anyway, my point was not in tank comparsion(and starting another flame war), my point was that there are other great tanks besides t-34-85 or t-34-100

B.T.W
T-34 never had a mod(at least none of the original versions) with 120mm gun. T-34-100 had 100mm gun, but it was never videly used.
 
nope

No, the Panther was a Tank, not a Tank Destoryer. Anyways, I think the T34 witha 100mm gun was called T44, no?
 
PzKpfw V "Panther" Ausf A/G was a tank. There was also "Jagdpanther" which was tank killer, armed with 88mm (version of famous Pak 43/3 flakk cannon)

T-44 was in fact based on T-34, but it had very serious problems(it malfunctioned after 3000km). T-44 had very distinct feature by having it's engine installed crosswise to the chassis, and not parallel. So, i wouldnt call T-44 a version of T-34 coz they had quite a different design.

This picture is a comparsion of silhuettes of T-34-85 and T-44:

t44_2.gif
 
rovai said:
T34 was a great tank, almost the best in WW2(the best was IS2 ;) ). But there were other Russian(soviet) tanks, like KV-1,2 which were replaced by IS-1(wasnt that of a sucess in tank battles) and IS-2(in my opinion, the best tank of WW2).
Actually, it is not right to compare T34(which was developed before the war began) with later german tanks like PzKpfw V "Panther" modifications, not because Panhter was developed later, but simply beacause Panther was a DIFFERENT CLASS OF TANK. T-34 was a medium tank, Panther was a heavy tank. So, it would be right to compare Panther with an IS-2 tank. And panther is clearly loosing to the IS-2, both in armor terms and in arnament. For example, Panther Ausf G(latest mod of Panther) had 75mm KwK gun, and IS2 had 122!mm gun. Also, Panther had gaseline engine, while IS2 had diesel. Only real advantage panther had was greater speed(because of more powerful enginge).

If anybody wants, I can translate detailed charts of both Panther and IS2.

All data was taken from http://armor.kiev.ua/

Hi there.

I don't think it's fair to compare the Panther with the IS-2. I think you're in the minority when calling the Panther a heavy tank because although fairly heavy at 45 tons or so, it's armor protection and gun clearly put it in the medium class tank category. Plus the Wehrmacht already had the Tiger 1 in service that was heavier and had better armor protection and obviously the 88mm gun. If you really want to compare the IS-2 with a german tank it would be the Tiger 1.

I think the IS-2 is one of the unsung tank designs of WW2 - IMO it was a very good tank and a better tank than the Koenigstiger but inferior to the Tiger 1. It was never the best tank of WW2, that honour still going to the Panther G with the Tiger 1 second and the T34/85 third.
 
yes

Yes, the Panther was a Medium, a big one at that, but a medium. The IS2 should be compared to the Tiger and King Tiger.
 
IS-2 weights 46 tons, so its almost the same as Panther. IS-1 had almost the same armor and 85mm gun, so it was a match for Panther, and IS-2 was better. Germans positioned "Panther" as a heavy tank, they hoped it would match KV series of russian tanks.

As for Tiger and Kingtiger, yes they were very heavy, and they had 88mm cannon. But they were very slow, and were very good target for the anti tank artillery and IS-2. Their armor was still penetrated(although it took 2-5 shots to take out one tiger). And it still had gaseline engine.
 
Indeed, but "Panther" Ausf A entered production in summer 1943(because of problems in the production, operation "Zitadel", the famous kursk offence, was postponed) and in kursk battle there were about 400 panthers. Ausf G , which was the best panther mod entered production in march 1944. IS-85(IS-1, 85mm cannon) entered production in october 1943, IS-122(IS-2, 122mm cannon, slightly better armor) entered production in december 1943.

Both tanks entered production at about same time, in 43. For the germany it was already too late, because they were already defeated many times, and kursk was their last big offensive operation.
 
I know that panther was made quickly and as so with a lot of mwhanical errors so they broke down very quickly.
 
well

Well, Rovai, I tend to disagree there. The Panther was a Medium by definition, and the Tigers were Heavys. Weight is suprisingly not relevant, as diffrent countrys set the weight of their Mediums at diffrent scales. Thsi is similar to the russian T series tanks being lighter then the western MBTs, but they are still refered to as MBTs....
 
rovai said:
Indeed, but "Panther" Ausf A entered production in summer 1943(because of problems in the production, operation "Zitadel", the famous kursk offence, was postponed) and in kursk battle there were about 400 panthers. Ausf G , which was the best panther mod entered production in march 1944. IS-85(IS-1, 85mm cannon) entered production in october 1943, IS-122(IS-2, 122mm cannon, slightly better armor) entered production in december 1943.

The Panther tanks at Zitadel as you know were mechanically 'not ready' and a lot of them simply broke down.

It doesn't really matter when these tanks entered service with regards to this discussion. I know the Panther and IS-2 were close to the same weight but the Panther has always been identified as a medium tank by the Wehrmacht, as they already had the 10 tons heavier Tiger 1 in service. Of course it could be argued that the Panther in the Allied Armies would be classed as a heavy!

rovai said:
Both tanks entered production at about same time, in 43. For the germany it was already too late, because they were already defeated many times, and kursk was their last big offensive operation.

BTW, you're showing a little bit of bias here. It was my understanding that, up until Kursk, the Germans had only lost one major battle, i.e. the one at Stalingrad. Of course there were plenty of minor losses and victories by both sides up until then but they could not be classed as having any major impact on the war in the East.

You're right to say that Kursk was the last great German offensive in the East. IMO it was a unbelievably stupid decision by Hitler, especially when he delayed it to allow the new Panthers and Elephants to join the fight. All it did was allow the Soviets to build up huge defences that were never going to be broken quickly, if ever. Had Hitler listened to Guderian and Manstien, who wanted to wheel forces around to the south of Kursk and envelop the Soviet Armies on the southern flank, things may have been different. I don't think Germany would have beaten the Soviet Union (they lost that chance in 1942) but I think they could have forced a stalemate.
 
2 sherman : Germans classified their tanks by gun power, and any tank that had main gun with caliber under 90-80mm was considered medium"Panther" had 75mm KwK gun, which was slightly better than 76mm gun o T-34 "Tiger" had 88mm KwK, and was considered heavy. Allies took armor and speed into consideration. For example, "Matilda" may be considered a medium tank by german classification, because it had weak cannon. Modern tanks definitions are different, there are no light or heavy tanks today. Russians use ERA armor on their tanks, so although their tanks are ligh, they still have same armor protection(if not better) than western tanks.

2 Doppleganger : dont forget about moscow battle, which had huge psychological impact(the first major defeat of German army). Stalingrad and Kursk are two most famous because kursk was the biggest tank(ant other stuff too) battle in the world's history. Stalingrad was bloodiest battle ever and also there is movie about it. There are other battles, less known but still important. Leningrad blockade, crimea and kerchen battle, sevastopol(battle for sevastopol was almost like stalingrad)just to name a few.

B.T.W During kursk battle, "Panthers" had kill ratio of at least 2:1(two T-34 for one panther) against T-34 and about 1:1.5 against KV series(there werent many KV's in kursk battle). Before kursk, soviet command had little information on panther, but they knew germans classified their tank as medium, so they made the mistake by sending T-34 against it, and that resulted in 2:1 kill ratio with panthers. I believe, that kill ratio was even higher(about 3.5:1). After kursk, it became clear that T-34 cannot match panther because of difference in armor(their guns were at the same level).
 
well

Rovai wrote:
Germans classified their tanks by gun power, and any tank that had main gun with caliber under 90-80mm was considered medium"Panther" had 75mm KwK gun, which was slightly better than 76mm gun o T-34 "Tiger" had 88mm KwK, and was considered heavy

Right, so as I said, the Panther was a Medium, therefore should not be compared with the IS heavy tank series.
 
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