Switzerland says Israel breaking international law

My answers might appear simplistic, but it is my firm belief that this is a simple matter and making it more complex will certainly not get us any closer to the answer

Yes, your answers certainly are too simplistic, far too simplistic for one of the most complex problems in the world.


The Palestinians comprised 67% of the population of the area before the European Jews returned.
The Palis do belong there, they actually own the place, and should not have to compromise,... It's their country.

No, it was never solely their country.

Even your own quoted figures establish that Jews comprised 33% of the population initially, hardly a premise for claimig the Jews have no ‘ownership’ rights. On top of this it has to be taken into account that over those hundreds of years Jews were driven from their homes and country by holocaust etc.
And importantly, European arrivals in the early years were certainly refugees, not reinforcements, and as such always morally legitimate. Indeed, I would argue that even today most Jews arriving in Israel are refugees .

If I were you, I would leave the Zionists right out of this debate, because to most of the non Jewish world, the Zionists are regarded as an extremist or a violent terrorist organisation.


Oh, of course, because they defend their right to live; unlike Islamic fundamentalists who kill and maim innocent people all over the world, and who you conveniently ignore; now that’s extremism and violent terrorism incarnate.

But they were not always like this, they lived peacefully alongside their Jewish neighbours for many hundreds if not a thousand years
You admit that in fact their Jewish neighbours actually existed and did indeed live peacefully alongside them, until they started slaughtering the Jews.


What would you do, if tomorrow the UN convened and said, "The Indonesians have overrun Australia, and the population have lost everything, we will give them half of Israel"?

This question should be directed at yourself. In such circumstances, where would you all go. You just might have to face it at some time.

Israel has already dealt with such issues – Europe wanted rid of Jews, Israel gave shelter.
But it appears that much of the world still wishes to chase them, doesn’t it. (Rhetorical)



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That shows exactly how much understanding you have of the area, the Jewish people, or the Zionist movement. Zionisem is a term t odescribe the Jewish national movement. It means nothing else exept that Jews should have a country. At times some people who were Zionists considered building this country some where else all togather. Territorial zionists were the ones that claimed it must be in Israel itself. I am a zionist and I don not think Im militant or extreme. More to the point, most radical right jewish groups today are considered by some yo be anti-zionist or post-zionist.
Just Google the word Zionist and tell me what percentage of what is written is complementary. Even moderate Israelis and Rabbis around the world are stating that Zionism and Judaism are mutually exclusive.
LOL. they lived under turk law and obeyed it. From the minute Jews started thinking of a national home in Israel...These people suddenly became a nationality. That makes as much sens if notless than people who were kicked out and want to come back for 2000 years. This is a make belief nationality.
Did you ever stop to think why? Even though the Ottomans were occupiers and oppressors, they were not as bad a the Jews have been. As for the arabs suddenly becoming a "nationality", how long have we had Israelis? No longer, so by your reckoning that makes Israelis a make believe nationality too?
Your attemt to negate my peoples right to live on their historicall motherland is absurd. There are 22 arab countries for arabs. there is no other jewish state.
Why is it absurd? No other group in the world is allowed to take half of someone elses country because they have a historical connection. How many other european groups have been given someone elses country to make a state exclusively their own?

I noticed that you never answered my question regarding your opinion if the Australian people had been given half of Israel by the UN (or anyone else).
 
Sherman - you have to understand how this works.
Those who single out the Jewish nation for criticism, when asked why they don't criticize Israel's enemies, respond - 'You are changing the subject. We're talking about Israel.'

No other nation in history faced with comparable challenges has ever adhered to a higher standard of human rights, been more sensitive to the status of innocent civilians, tried harder to operate under the rule of law, or been willing to take more risks for peace. Israel is the only nation in the world whose judiciary actively enforces the rule of law against its own military even during warfare.

It is the only country in modern history to have returned disputed territory captured in a defensive war and crucial to its own self defence in exchange for peace.

Now, when the best is accused of being the worst, you must take a look at the accusers, who can be guilty of bigotry, hypocrisy, or abysmal ignorance at the very least.

You can see from the responses you have received that such is what you are currently up against.
 
Just Google the word Zionist and tell me what percentage of what is written is complementary. Even moderate Israelis and Rabbis around the world are stating that Zionism and Judaism are mutually exclusive. Did you ever stop to think why? Even though the Ottomans were occupiers and oppressors, they were not as bad a the Jews have been. As for the arabs suddenly becoming a "nationality", how long have we had Israelis? No longer, so by your reckoning that makes Israelis a make believe nationality too?
Why is it absurd? No other group in the world is allowed to take half of someone elses country because they have a historical connection. How many other european groups have been given someone elses country to make a state exclusively their own?

I noticed that you never answered my question regarding your opinion if the Australian people had been given half of Israel by the UN (or anyone else).

There is little point in me getting involved in this argument further because essentially I would just be echoing Spikes sentiments, I have no doubt it is easy to make the case for Israel if you are prepared to accept biblical fables and ignore illegalities but the reality is that the Palestinians are not going to come to terms as Israel wants them and to be blunt I wouldn't either.
 
Just Google the word Zionist and tell me what percentage of what is written is complementary. Even moderate Israelis and Rabbis around the world are stating that Zionism and Judaism are mutually exclusive.

Hmmm...So? Read actual zionist templets from the 19th century. And talk to people like me befor you say words liek terrorist...And no "moderate" Israeli would say that, only extreme left wing ones would...

Did you ever stop to think why? Even though the Ottomans were occupiers and oppressors, they were not as bad a the Jews have been. As for the arabs suddenly becoming a "nationality", how long have we had Israelis? No longer, so by your reckoning that makes Israelis a make believe nationality too?

Firstly, take a look at how the Turks fight their minority issues and than try and repeat what you just wrote with out being struck down by lightning.
Also, Jews have been a nationality before most of europe climbed off the trees:)

Why is it absurd? No other group in the world is allowed to take half of someone elses country because they have a historical connection. How many other european groups have been given someone elses country to make a state exclusively their own?

I noticed that you never answered my question regarding your opinion if the Australian people had been given half of Israel by the UN (or anyone else).

No other group lasted 2000 years of diaspora and prosecutions either. As far as the Australians, If you show me headstones from 2000 years ago that proove you guys lived here, I shall consider this. The very fact that you refuse to understand i that the Jews and the land of Israel cannot be seperated.
 
In short MontyB, there is no legal, moral or logical reason to support Israel's treatment of the Arab inhabitants of the land they were "given" by the UN in 1947.

Given a choice I would like to support the Israelis, but not while they treat the Palestinians as they do.
 
In short MontyB, there is no legal, moral or logical reason to support Israel's treatment of the Arab inhabitants of the land they were "given" by the UN in 1947.

HUH? I think your confused. Arab citizens of Israel are treated the same as other citizns. The Palestinians are not citizens, and neither side wants them to be citizens.
 
Hmmm...So? Read actual zionist templets from the 19th century. And talk to people like me befor you say words liek terrorist...And no "moderate" Israeli would say that, only extreme left wing ones would...
By this you mean anyone who does not support your views on Zionism. What I'm talking about is world opinion. The israelis are fast becoming the bogeymen of the Middle East, and most of this feeling is as a result of Zionist policies and actions.

Firstly, take a look at how the Turks fight their minority issues and than try and repeat what you just wrote with out being struck down by lightning.
this is exactly my point, if the Turks were supposed to be so bad why didn't the Arabs rise up against them as they have the Israelis? It certainly doesn't say much for Israel.
Also, Jews have been a nationality before most of europe climbed off the trees:)
A "nationality based on religion, Hmmmm,... i don't think you really have a case there Sherman. How do you define who is a Jew? I damned sure i don't know, are they a Race or a Religion? From what read, not even all Jews can agree.

No other group lasted 2000 years of diaspora and prosecutions either. As far as the Australians, If you show me headstones from 2000 years ago that proove you guys lived here, I shall consider this. The very fact that you refuse to understand i that the Jews and the land of Israel cannot be seperated.
"Diaspora".... they went to other countries. There are not many nationalities that did not spread to other countries at some stage or another. Prosecutions?,... have you ever asked why is this so. When i read some of the Zionist propaganda I can see why others would not like people with similar views and aspirations. http://www.realnews247.com/spec_rpt_jews_against_zionism.htm
Even Jews can see what Zionism is doing to their reputation. In many respects Zionism is very closely aligned with the policies of Germany in the 1930s (I did not want to have to bring this up, but there is no denying it) You know that i am not the first or the only one to suggest this. If someone were to say this about my beliefs and policies, I would take a very serious look at myself.
I could find plenty of denials, but no evidence that it was not so. In fact i could find plenty of evidence to support it, with Zionists physically attacking Palestinian land owners, other Israelis and even Rabbis, in many cases with the Israeli military watching on.This is exactly what happened on the streets of Germany in the 1930s. The thing that all Jews supposedly despise, yet here we see Jews doing it to their own people.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=YBNMDjj5LKc
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=sz4PZ9-r1qo
There's a start, I can find at least 20-50 more, but I have made my point. How do good Jews justify this. The answer is that they don't they despise these thugs and criminals who drag the name of their country through the mud on the world stage.
 
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Sherman - take a look at the facts I have presented on this thread to support what we say; every one ignored and not taken into account; and there is a mass of such evidence on many issues, but only Israel must be blamed as far as they are concerned - the result of years of Arab and islamic propaganda, at which they are masters.

Open minds are unheard of in certain quarters; and this drives a wedge between the two sides, which I believe is the sole aim.

Certainly the people you are trying to reason with are adamantly against peace in the region.

This attitude is explained in my last post. It is a common perception, a cliche, borne of their absorbed prejudices . I doubt they know what Zionism or Zionists actually are; Arab propaganda has created this bogeyman they flourish like a flag; just another effort at dehumanising. Really, their attitude ain't worth a carrot, in my humble opinion, because it criticizes only one side constantly.
 
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By this you mean anyone who does not support your views on Zionism.

No, by this I mean exactly what I said. And again I ask, do you even know what zionisem means or are you winging it?

this is exactly my point, if the Turks were supposed to be so bad why didn't the Arabs rise up against them as they have the Israelis? It certainly doesn't say much for Israel.

Trust me, If we were half as harsh as the turks the Palis wouldent do anything. If at all our softness is encouraging violence.

A "nationality based on religion, Hmmmm,... i don't think you really have a case there Sherman. How do you define who is a Jew? I damned sure i don't know, are they a Race or a Religion? From what read, not even all Jews can agree
.

That is indeed actually a good point. However...Jews share much more than religion. Look into it.

Oh yeah...One last thing...If you compare my country or any other country to Nazi Germany you better know your history a little better. There are Religous extremists in Israel that do very bad things. That is very far from Germany in the 1930s, where the government aranged these things. The Israeli army arrests these people usually, and they are put to trial.

You continue to prove my feeling that you know little about palestinians, jews, zionists or facists. All togather what you are is a bleeding heart classic western left wing self-hater.

Nothing I say will convince you because you look at it from a certain angle and nothing will open your eyes. I Live here, I served in the military here, I studied Islam and Arab colture for 3 years in high school, and Im getting a BA in it now. But ovcourse, I dont know anything. And if I say somthing, its poisened by zionist-terrorist thinking.

Im done with you. You can BS all you want and not listen to a damn thing people tell you.
 
It's what I've been trying to say.
It's always easy to be nice to an "indigenous people" if they're small in number and cooperative. If they are large in number, uncooperative, use land they're given back to launch strikes against you and have large neighbors who arm, train and supply their militants, and occasionally invade on their behalf, you're looking at a totally different ball game.
I'm sorry but from my experience from Muslim countries there are far too many people who shift their poor standard of living to some external force. They will blame the Great Satan, they will blame the Europeans, they will blame the Israelis and that is their source of power. It doesn't matter how fair or nice you are. It's the source of most of their legitimacy.
All I'm saying is that maybe fifty years ago the international community made a mistake. But RIGHT NOW is what is important and Israelis of this generation belong where they are as much as the Palestinians do and there's going to have to be a way to get them to live together.
No seriously, I don't believe Israel's been as harsh as most other rulers have. Muslims treat other Muslims far worse than the Israelis do. Believe me. It's amazing how sometimes they throw this whole "Muslim brother" thing right out the window.
What Sherman says overall is pretty accurate and it pretty much fits what I've seen over the years.
 
No, by this I mean exactly what I said. And again I ask, do you even know what zionisem means or are you winging it?
I only have to be able to read. Even in Australia where it is of no consequence the Zioniist cause is mocked and despised because of it's similarities to the pre war Germans. Do you not see some irony in the fact that the very people who suffered from similar treatment in Germany are now doing it to the Palestians

Trust me, If we were half as harsh as the turks the Palis wouldent do anything. If at all our softness is encouraging violence.
Well,.. as I have pionted out twice before, the palestinian people were there, and they have made the judgement,... you and I were not, so I'll take their word over yours.

That is indeed actually a good point. However...Jews share much more than religion. Look into it.
I have looked, and I'll be the first to admit that I do not understand all of the divisions of Judaism and the way that they interpret their readings, but it has totally confused me. The one thing that seemed apparent to me, (whether it is right or wrong I do not know) is that there appears to be great differences in opinion over this matter. I would appreciate your personal view.

Oh yeah...One last thing...If you compare my country or any other country to Nazi Germany you better know your history a little better. There are Religous extremists in Israel that do very bad things. That is very far from Germany in the 1930s, where the government aranged these things. The Israeli army arrests these people usually, and they are put to trial.
I know the relevant history of this time very well hence my comparison. I do believe what you say, however,... it is the bad eggs that make the smell, and there is plenty of video and written evidence of this. It's highly unfortunate, but no one can deny that it happens with the evidence that is freely available.

I detest using the comparison between Jews of any sort, and Nazis, to me it is obscene, but unfortunately there are certainly plenty of cases to prove my point

You continue to prove my feeling that you know little about palestinians, jews, zionists or facists. All togather what you are is a bleeding heart classic western left wing self-hater.
That statement in itself shows your lack of willingness to accept the facts, you know far less about me than I know of what is going on in the Middle East. What you forget is that it is 2008 not 1908 and news travels around the world as fast as it gets to the next street. The Middle east is on the news every night, and I am not.

Nothing I say will convince you because you look at it from a certain angle and nothing will open your eyes. I Live here, I served in the military here, I studied Islam and Arab colture for 3 years in high school, and Im getting a BA in it now. But ovcourse, I dont know anything. And if I say somthing, its poisened by zionist-terrorist thinking.

Im done with you. You can BS all you want and not listen to a damn thing people tell you.
Once again, I don't have to look at it from what you call a "certain angle", because this issue does not really affect me one way or the other I can stand back and look at the whole picture.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I did want to give you a chance to show me where I may have been wrong, instead all you have done is convince me further that I was right in the first instance.
 
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In short MontyB, there is no legal, moral or logical reason to support Israel's treatment of the Arab inhabitants of the land they were "given" by the UN in 1947.

Given a choice I would like to support the Israelis, but not while they treat the Palestinians as they do.


Other than that they are trying to defend themselves and stop the Arabs from shelling them, bombing them, drawing foreign fire onto them, attacking them around the world, when they are able, and trying to wipe them off the map & out of their homeland in which they lived in harmony with their Arab neighbours for , as you say, hundreds of years, forgetting for the moment the thousands of biblical times years. Reason enough I say.

Fact is - Arabs stop shooting - problem over - talking starts - peace reigns - everybody wins. And Arabia still has room for exiled Australians and more.
 
Fact is - Arabs stop shooting - problem over - talking starts - peace reigns - everybody wins. And Arabia still has room for exiled Australians and more.


You are absolutely right Arabia has a ton of room but it is neither yours to give nor Australia's to take and why should Arabs stop shooting was it not Winston Churchill that prattled on about fighting them on the beaches culminating in "we shall never surrender" perhaps the Palestinians read the speech.
 
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You are absolutely right Arabia has a ton of room but it is neither yours to give nor Australia's to take and why should Arabs stop shooting was in not Winston Churchill that prattled on about fighting them on the beaches culminating in "we shall never surrender" perhaps the Palestinians read the speech.

Seno asked whether Aussies expelled by Indonesia could come there - tell him!

Prattle that to Churchill - a great supporter of the Jewish state.

For those who do not understand, criticizing Israel is not anti-semetic. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction, out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East - is anti-Semetic, and not saying so is dishonest. A good working definition of anti-Semitism is taking a trait or an action that is widespread and blaming only the Jews for it. That is what Hitler and Stalin did.


Israel's basic right is to exist, to protect its citizens from terrorism, and to defend its borders from hostile enemies. Israel has long been willing to accept a two-state solution, and it was the Arab leadership that persistently refused to accept any Jewish state - no matter how small - in areas of Palestine with a Jewish majority. Israel is a flourishing multi-ethnic democracy that affords all of its citizens, Jews, Muslims, and Christians - far better lives and opportunities than those afforded by any Arab or Muslim nation. Those who single out Israel for unique criticism not directed against countries with far worse human rights records are themselves guilty of international bigotry. When the Jewish nation is the only one criticized for faults far worse among other nations, such criticism crosses the line from fair to foul, from acceptable to anti-semetic.

Most of the world currently advocates a two-state solution; a large majority of Israelis have accepted this compromise, and it is the official position of the Palestinian Authority as well as the governments of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Morocco. Only the states of Syria, Iran and Libya, plus the extremists among the Israelis and the Palestinians claim that all the land should permanently be controlled either by the Israelis or the Palestininans alone.

I have already posted substantiation of Israel's unbroken settlement in their homeland not since 2000 years ago, but also and actually throughout those years, with increases throughout and reductions by holocaust etc. throughout.

There is no doubt of their legitimate claim, it does not rely only upon the biblical claims of thousands of years. It is a human history of a people maintaining a presence and also striving to return.

Those who encourage war and not peace between the parties are playing a very dangerous game, worse than that of the extremists of Israel and Palestine.




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