Switzerland says Israel breaking international law

I have made no reference to the 2000 year biblical claim.
From now on I will just refer to those people as "Indigenous Peoples" and base it on a model so it doesn't leave room for details that are beyond the point.
If the European immigration to Palestine was illegal, then well, we're back to square one aren't we? Colonists of America, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa were all illegal immigrants. Hell, perhaps only the South Africans who can claim their ancient heritage and nativity to South Africa's lands should stay and everyone else be sent packing. Same with everyone else.
Again the argument is going nowhere.
3 generations later, native born Israelis have their home in Israel. They don't have another country that is exactly or close enough to their country to bug out to or resettle to either.
If we look to settle "crimes" that were committed several generations before there's a LOT to dig up. Israel is here and it's going to stay, the Palestinians are also going to stay. They're just going to have to make it work.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
I have made no reference to the 2000 year biblical claim.
From now on I will just refer to those people as "Indigenous Peoples" and base it on a model so it doesn't leave room for details that are beyond the point.
If the European immigration to Palestine was illegal, then well, we're back to square one aren't we? Colonists of America, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa were all illegal immigrants. Hell, perhaps only the South Africans who can claim their ancient heritage and nativity to South Africa's lands should stay and everyone else be sent packing. Same with everyone else.
Again the argument is going nowhere.
3 generations later, native born Israelis have their home in Israel. They don't have another country that is exactly or close enough to their country to bug out to or resettle to either.
If we look to settle "crimes" that were committed several generations before there's a LOT to dig up. Israel is here and it's going to stay, the Palestinians are also going to stay. They're just going to have to make it work.
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Jeez talk about a scatter gun approach to arguing, America, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa have all managed to reach accommodations with their indigenous populations that doesn't involve sticking them in refugee camps and taking their land off them every time they want to build a new housing complex though.
 
But in the beginning that's what they all did.
I'm sure as time goes by the Israelis and the Palestinians will find peace too.
 
That's your opinion.
You had a chance. They should have one too. Or get your ass back to wherever your grandparents or great grand parents came from.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
That's your opinion.
You had a chance. They should have one too. Or get your ass back to wherever your grandparents or great grand parents came from.
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But once again you are ignoring your own argument, the Palestinians are not prepared to give it up or reach an "accommodation" they want what is theirs back and I can't fault them for that.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
Spike, I understand what you're saying, but my point is that they're 3 generations down the line.
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Yes,... true, but aren't the Jews still hunting Germans involved in the holocaust three generations later? The passing of time does not right a wrong.

And I wouldn't be too sure of Palestinians condemning acts of blowing up buses. I just wished people were actually sensible. That counts for us too actually. I remember hearing that people in Korea cheered about the 9/11 attacks. Exactly how many I don't know. But people are like that... it seems that valuing human life and freedom is very much a Western concept.
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I am a Westerner, I can't do much about that, and I certainly value the lives of others. I do not support the indiscriminate use of force, whatever the reason, and I'm very proud to say it. I feel that it is one of the cocepts that differentiates between man and the animals.

Here in Australia only several weeks ago was a documentary about an Arab family who have been trying to make contact with their old Jewish neighbours that they had lived alongside for generations prior to all of this stupidity. They were the best of friends, went to school together and used to play together and be babysat by each others families. It appeared to me that that the Israeli bureaucracy did almost everything within their power to prevent this meeting, the troops on the gate were obstructive and openly hostile when told what was going on even though they were aware they were being filmed by the French media. They did eventually meet, but it had to be in a "Neutral" place as the Arab family were not allowed to visit the Jewish home and the Jewish family were obviously embarrassed by this. They were all in tears when the time came to part, knowing that it would probably never happen again, well,... not unless another film crew embarrassed the authorities into allowing it.

I agree with you, it is stupid, but both sides have dug themselves in and neither is willing to back down. The Israelis will not return, or pay a reasonable price for the stolen land (if the owners wanted to sell it), and the Arabs will not stop resisting even with the heavy handed attitudes of the Israelis. The forced acquisition of land did not stop with the declaration of the Jewish state but is still occurring on a day to day basis today. At least here in Australia we are giving land back to the owners and have been paying them for the last fifty years, and no doubt will continue to do it. We do not use military force on those who complain, and it has been a hundred years at least since we shot Aboriginals for wanting their land back or complaining.

All I am saying is, that I would do the same as the Palestinians if it happened in my country.
 
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MontyB said:
Jeez talk about a scatter gun approach to arguing, America, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa have all managed to reach accommodations with their indigenous populations that doesn't involve sticking them in refugee camps and taking their land off them every time they want to build a new housing complex though.
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Well in America and South Africa they did take the land, it was just a long time ago, they were called reservations then rather than refugee camps, the difference is that Israel does it now. It seems for most nations land rights become meaningless after a certain time, so I'm not convinced about the time argument. Except for the Jews who have to turn back the clock thousands of years, I wonder what makes them different?


I can think only of three possible reasons,
  1. they have long been considered part of 'civilisation' unlike native peoples such Aborigines, 'Red' Indians, Zulu's etc,
  2. they have remained more genetically pure, unlike the Celts, Saxons etc. Perhaps Hitler was jealous.
  3. a literal belief in many Biblical texts resulting in a serious conviction that they are God's chosen people, together with rights to that part of the Middle East.
So the solution is to ditch religion and for Jews and Palestinians to marry. I'm not holding my breath! :roll:
 
True, but Australia has a lot of land it can give back and the outback given back to Aborigines is hardly a huge loss.
Israel is a different story. Yet they've been willing to give up the West Bank and the Gaza strip and understandably been reluctant about the Golan Heights.
But my point is, regardless of what's happened both parties are going to have to find peace. They just don't have a choice. Your example of Australia making amends is Australia's way of making peace with a past they are not allowed to forget. The Israelis and the Palestinians need to do the same. I think that because of the influence of the West and because I don't think Israelis are naturally bloodthirsty and they do have a Western mindset in them from European influence, if the Palestinians adopted the strategy of nonviolent protest, we'd be seeing FAR more progress.

MontyB, your argument about Israel hunting down those responsible for World War II criminals is off the mark. If the Israelis were hunting down the children of those who were guilty of the holocaust THEN I would agree that this is completely in the wrong. And believe me, some people actually do this. Israel has not done so. They are hunting down the actual individuals.
 
the_13th_redneck said:
True, but Australia has a lot of land it can give back and the outback given back to Aborigines is hardly a huge loss.
Israel is a different story. Yet they've been willing to give up the West Bank and the Gaza strip and understandably been reluctant about the Golan Heights.
But my point is, regardless of what's happened both parties are going to have to find peace. They just don't have a choice. Your example of Australia making amends is Australia's way of making peace with a past they are not allowed to forget. The Israelis and the Palestinians need to do the same. I think that because of the influence of the West and because I don't think Israelis are naturally bloodthirsty and they do have a Western mindset in them from European influence, if the Palestinians adopted the strategy of nonviolent protest, we'd be seeing FAR more progress.

MontyB, your argument about Israel hunting down those responsible for World War II criminals is off the mark. If the Israelis were hunting down the children of those who were guilty of the holocaust THEN I would agree that this is completely in the wrong. And believe me, some people actually do this. Israel has not done so. They are hunting down the actual individuals.
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Umm care to go back and read it again, I am sure MontyB starts with an M and Senojekips starts with an S but hey that's just me, however I do agree with his point you argue that 1948 was too long ago to matter anymore but 1942 well its a different argument.
 
You miss my point again.
The generation we're dealing with now were born and raised in Israel.
The individuals the Israelis look for are those who committed the crimes personally.
Probing for a weakness are you?
 
You also miss my point, I can't be "off the mark" if I didn't make the statement attributed to me.
 
senojekips said:
The passing of time does not right a wrong.
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Precisely - and that is why the Jews are entitled to the homeland which has been constantly kept from them by conquest and holocaust over the years. Even tho' what remains is a mere sliver of that homeland. They did not abandon it 2000 years ago and the last holder was the Ottoman Empire, taken by conquest. Jews have lived and belonged in Israel throughout. Late 19th century - population of Jerusalem = approx 3500 of Jews, approx same Mohammedans, a little less Christians; and Jerusalem then was a dusty run-down backwater of the Turkish Empire. In the early 20th century those authorities offered the whole region to the largely agricultural Zionist Movement for a pittance in return for moral support in the question of the accusations of theTurkish genocide of the Armenians; the Zionist Movement rejected that out of hand on principle.

Throughout history, the Jews have enriched the societies in which they lived, becoming advisors to Kings and countries, only because of such success, eventually being robbed of everything they owned and forced to leave their wealth and achievements behind through enforced deportation en masse. Leaving them nothing. The finale was the last holocaust, and they are determined that Massada should never fall again. They are in their own country, mandated by the League of Nations; the last thing Arabia needs is that sliver of land, they have more land and sand than you could shake a stick at.

Be honest - we all are aware that Arabia does not want a two nation solution; what it wants is what it puts the Palestinians on the front line for; the destruction of Israel and the pursuit of its own political aims in Europe.
After all- the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem offered to wipe out the Jews of the world for Hitler in the thirties. So No, guys, the Jews are not happy to roll over and die on the altar of the opinions of those who have persecuted and harrassed them for so long; they do their best to defend themselves. Damned annoying, ain't it.

Well - perhaps Obama is the man and has it right - A two-nation solution, with a guaranteed secure Israel within its borders, with Jerusalem as its capital. Yes we can! Yes we can! You know it makes sense.
 
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the_13th_redneck said:
True, but Australia has a lot of land it can give back and the outback given back to Aborigines is hardly a huge loss.
Israel is a different story. Yet they've been willing to give up the West Bank and the Gaza strip and understandably been reluctant about the Golan Heights.
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This is a completely different case, none of the above areas were ever part of Israel, but have been occupied as a punitive measure because of the Arabs resistance to the occupation of their land within the originally defined borders of Israel. http://www.representativepress.org/IsraelHistory.html Heres a sample
The fact that the rights of the majority, 67% of the population, were violated is suppressed in the media. Why in the world would you think it is legitimate for 33% of a population to seize land and carve up the land into 7 parts? Why in the world should 67% of a population ever accept that? These population stats, which highlight just how undemocratic the UN proposal really was, are almost never mentioned in US media. The 1947 proposal was not the first land division scheme, the Peel Commission suggested a partition plan in 1937. Also if you look into it, the Zionists had no intention of accepting any fair partition. As Ben-Gurion himself said in 1937, "No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of Eretz Israel." (see p162 Fateful Triangle The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians)
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the_13th_redneck said:
But my point is, regardless of what's happened both parties are going to have to find peace. They just don't have a choice. Your example of Australia making amends is Australia's way of making peace with a past they are not allowed to forget. The Israelis and the Palestinians need to do the same. I think that because of the influence of the West and because I don't think Israelis are naturally bloodthirsty and they do have a Western mindset in them from European influence, if the Palestinians adopted the strategy of nonviolent protest, we'd be seeing FAR more progress.
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There's not much chance of non violent protest so long as Israeli troops keep "dispersing" the protesters with rubber bullets, tear gas and live ammunition. They also support the illegal action of "settlers" stealing even more land as we speak.

To achieve anything like Australia is undertaking (and we still have room for improvement) the Israelis will have to vacate all occupied territories back to the originally defined borders of Israel, then start reimbursing the owners of the land seized within those borders.
 
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That's a real good point actually. The spirit of the strategy is very much in the wrong.
There's got to be a change in attitude.
I think they were pretty close to such a thing in the 90's until an Israeli guy shot Yitzhak Rabin.
 
Yitzhak Rabin was the Israelis best hope for peace, but the Zionists hated the thought of retuning Arab lands to the rightful owners, so it was easier for them to kill their own democratically elected Prime Minister.

This is what happens when extremists are allowed to operate in a country. There is a comparison in relatively recent history, but I am not going to say it, as I feel it is obscene. I am sure that we are all aware of which group I am talking about. If the Zionists ever gain a majority in Israel, they will end up as International pariahs as did the last group of extremists.
 
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Borders were made for a reason. I think Israel's going to have to draw those lines pretty much as the way they were drawn before the Arabs decided to invade (which was day 1). I guess the Golan Heights may be an exception as it was seized from Syria and is too crucial for Israel's defense. But giving up the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, putting up the walls and fences and recognizing an independent Palestine may be Israel's best chance.
Israelis and Palestinians of this generation share the same homeland. They're going to have to learn to draw the lines and share it.
But that's just what I think.
 
Redneck, What borders these? Bear in mind that 90% of the decent land lies in the Jewish boundaries, is this fair?


UN_Partition_Plan_Palestine.png


Another interesting fact is that from November 1947 to May 1948 the Zionists were already on the offensive and had already attacked Arabs. In the months before Israel was declared, the Zionists had driven 300,000 non-Jews off their land. In the months before Israel was declared, the Zionists had seized land beyond the proposed Jewish State. http://www.representativepress.org/IsraelHistory.html .
 
Alright then let's have all the Israelis pack it up and move to Britain who "created" the whole thing in the first place.
No wait, then the British will complain.
Heck let's just shoot them. How about that Perseus?
Funny I have a feeling this sort of thing has been tried before.
 
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