Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

It would be a mistake to expel Turkey from NATO. Turkey is a strategically important member of NATO and there isn't a structure in NATO to expel a member state so it will be difficult to do it. It isn't in Tukey's interest to leave NATO either, if it does they problems with Greece will be on a different level when Greece can use the article 5 against Turkey. To expel Turkey will most likely push Turkey further into the Russian camp and maybe ruin the Turkish economy even more than what Erdogan has done so far.

It was maybe a mistake to support the Kurdish groups in Syria and Iraq. Maybe it had been better to create an anti-IS coalition with Turkey to fight IS. We are living in an interesting time.

Why shaft them when Kurdish groups seem to have been the most reliable allies in the middle east the west has in order to support an egomaniacal dictator?

Originally Posted by MontyB

Why shaft them when Kurdish groups seem to have been the most reliable allies in the middle east the west has in order to support an egomaniacal dictator?

I was thinking about the US when the US is supposed to be allied to Turkey. It alienated Turkey and might have been a better ally than the Kurds to fight IS. Just a speculation from my side of things.

Ukraine got MBTs, now it wants fighter planes. Does Germany have any to give to Ukraine? Hehe

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

Ukraine got MBTs, now it wants fighter planes. Does Germany have any to give to Ukraine? Hehe

We have spoken about fighters for quite a while, I lean toward the F-16 as there are plenty of them around in storage but I do think the Grippen is the best aircraft for them when you take into account the maintenance and runway conditions.
Unfortunately I don't think Sweden can supply the volumes needed.

Originally Posted by MontyB

We have spoken about fighters for quite a while, I lean toward the F-16 as there are plenty of them around in storage but I do think the Grippen is the best aircraft for them when you take into account the maintenance and runway conditions.
Unfortunately I don't think Sweden can supply the volumes needed.

The F-16 is the air equivalent of the Leo2, there are a lot of them around the world. The Ukrainians have asked for the Gripen, we have a lot of older versions of it, but the logistics around the Gripen speaks against it. Maybe the Ukrainians can get older versions of the F-18.

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

The F-16 is the air equivalent of the Leo2, there are a lot of them around the world. The Ukrainians have asked for the Gripen, we have a lot of older versions of it, but the logistics around the Gripen speaks against it. Maybe the Ukrainians can get older versions of the F-18.

There is no doubt the Gripen is the best aircraft for Ukrainian conditions but they also need lots of aircraft quickly and I suspect the US has the mass training and maintenance capacity that Sweden probably doesn't.
There is also some suggestion that older block Eurofighters might be an option but I imagine the learning curve on that would be rather steep.

Shall the west give the attack helicopters too? They are actually not getting the stuff for free. Ukraine is leasing what they get.

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

Shall the west give the attack helicopters too? They are actually not getting the stuff for free. Ukraine is leasing what they get.

The role of helicopters in this conflict seems pretty limited and the number being shot down means sending anything more than transport helicopters could be expensive with little to no benefit.
If we are going to do more then I would stick with aircraft and long range missiles.

So how much does Turkiye want its F-16s?

Seems the choice is, approve NATO expansion or rattle around in old F-16s.

https://www.france24.com/en/americas...nato-expansion

Originally Posted by MontyB

So how much does Turkiye want its F-16s?

Seems the choice is, approve NATO expansion or rattle around in old F-16s.

https://www.france24.com/en/americas...nato-expansion

Finland and Sweden have done what the three countries agreed on in Madrid. Turkiye has added more conditions for approval of Finland and Sweden. The Turkish economy is in the drain, Erdogan wants to be reelected and what is better than portraying himself as a strong leader. His objections have been directed to the US and I bet he will say yes if he gets the F-16 upgrades and the new F-16. The US has another possibility to pressure Erdogan and that is to sell more advanced weapons to Greece.