Superior rights

S

Strauss

Active member
This one goes out to all the privates and constables in the millitary forces around the world.

Can your superiors actually "punish" you with say push ups or sit ups (or the like?) or is that illegal by law in your country?

In Denmark it is actually illegal, but the sergents training the privates and constables have found a way around it, it's called "mini-training sessions" and apperently that is NOT illegal, cleaver bastards :army:

So my question to you is: What is the situation where you serve?
 
It's against regulations to perform "collective punishment" here, but individual soldiers or smaller groups within the tropps may be issued push-up's and other physical tasks as punishment.
The "mini-training" trick is also used here on larger groups, but it tends to affect the popularity of the NCO's who issue that kind of punishment, so those who have brains usually don't turn to that kind of solutions.
They know that such things often call for a payback some time in the future, and they favour the cooperation of the troops more than the power instituted by their rank.

You don't want to mess with people whith whom you may spend a week in a tent.. :shoothea:
 
Don’t see it as a punishment but as a tool for educating and training soldiers. If you use “the punishment" reasonable, then it has meaning. We use it a lot in the army. In a combat unit imprudence or forgetfulness can cost lives. It is a way to learn and never forget the little things that can have major consequences.

On an exercise I had forgotten to put water in my canteen. When my sergeant discovered that, he noted; “it was not good that I was missing water”. So I got a water container with 25 liters of water down my backpack and I had to carry it the rest of the exercise. It was the last time I forgot to put water in my canteen.

And then you should not forget that it also has a social significance. It creates unity. Everyone has at one time or another been "punished" Take it like a man when you experience it during your training. There is a reason for it.
 
GHR said:
Don’t see it as a punishment but as a tool for educating and training soldiers. If you use “the punishment" reasonable, then it has meaning. We use it a lot in the army. In a combat unit imprudence or forgetfulness can cost lives. It is a way to learn and never forget the little things that can have major consequences.

On an exercise I had forgotten to put water in my canteen. When my sergeant discovered that, he noted; “it was not good that I was missing water”. So I got a water container with 25 liters of water down my backpack and I had to carry it the rest of the exercise. It was the last time I forgot to put water in my canteen.

And then you should not forget that it also has a social significance. It creates unity. Everyone has at one time or another been "punished" Take it like a man when you experience it during your training. There is a reason for it.
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That's a neccessary "tool" for training in my opinion, it will set a standard not only for the individual soldier, but also for the rest of the group.
But issuing "collective punishment" for the entire team, troop, or company for one soldiers misshap is another thing.

As the NCO who thought it was a great idea to have 34 man doing push-up's in the mud just beccause one soldier failed to pack his entrenchment tool that day...that idea backfired.
There's plenty of ways for the troops to embarrass NCO's in their superiors eyes, and that's what happened after that push-up session.

Some learned, some just got transfered or "sacked" upwards to a position where they could no longer do any harm to the troops morale.

It's the way of the "Barracks justice" up here. :viking:
 
So if an order isn't obeyed at once are you saying that person should then be put into the military discipline machinery, or should they be given some task like a few push up to get them to obey. The military is not a debating group that can chew over any order that they get, and such orders if they are to be effective need to be carried out at once.
 
LeEnfield said:
So if an order isn't obeyed at once are you saying that person should then be put into the military discipline machinery, or should they be given some task like a few push up to get them to obey. The military is not a debating group that can chew over any order that they get, and such orders if they are to be effective need to be carried out at once.
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If you ask me.....I can't possibly come up with an answer that would satisfy you in any way.

We were trained to keep discipline and follow the regulations, but still encouraged to think for ourselves.
The idea that the chain is not stronger than the weakest link applied there as well, and our superiors was not automaticly excluded from that just beccause of their rank.
An order was to be followed, but if it appeared ridicolous there should be an amount of consideration as well.

Things like My Lai couldn't have happened in my unit, but I must admit that we were trained to operate on a smaller scale, giving the individual soldier an overwiew of the situation far beyond the USSR level...

Learning by doing is only acceptable in a training situation, otherwise it could leave you and your commrades dead.
 
LeEnfield said:
So if an order isn't obeyed at once are you saying that person should then be put into the military discipline machinery, or should they be given some task like a few push up to get them to obey. The military is not a debating group that can chew over any order that they get, and such orders if they are to be effective need to be carried out at once.
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If you receive an illegal order, you have an obligation not to execute the order. In extreme cases you may actually deprive an NCO or an officer of his command. But be prepared to defend your action in the court-martial.

With regard to collective punishment, I don´t have a problem with it as long as you don´t expose people to danger or degrading treatment.

In combat, you execute your order the same second you receive it. And it cannot be discussed. The discussion takes place afterwards.
 
I was once given an order to attack the enemy lines, now I didn't fancy that one bit, now should I have argued it, and suggested that they send another person instead of me. As my old sergeant always said when we did some thing like this, "Well son if you get Killed you will make a good looking corpse"
In the forces you get a lot of orders you don't like but you carry them out to support your mates ans with out their help you don't stand a chance.
 
Yes Le, and I believe I am right in quoting the official training order as always to follow the order, to the extent of a squad marching to and over the cliff if the halt order does not come. Never had to test the point in practice, only in training. Of course, my regiment and others had the famous occasion of remaining on parade whilst the ship sank, bringing about the now famous order ' Women and children first'.
 
Marching over a cliff..For gosh sakes get real..
Don't understand how an actual veteran can make a satement like that.
 
The most common punishment I've seen for general screw ups is a private gets given a rock to carry everywhere. By the end of a day or two in the bush guys sure seem sick of it. In our local hall there is a rock on a display shelf covered in signatures and writing from different people who have had to carry it over the years like its a tradition.

Basic training is a different story, everyone who has done basic at waiouru know the hill/mountain waitangi and the stories of sections having two hours to retest on failed barrack inspections by taking everything in the room a few k to and up the mtn and having it in inspection order. Common other faults have recruits going up the nearest hill/mountain to 'see if you find any ... up there ballbags'. Waiouru's terrain is generally used as punishment as well as wall squats and press ups- unless of course you really step out of line- like the poor recruit who winked at an officer at my basic, or the other who threw up out the window onto the parade ground while drunk. Then it gets cruel and unusual ;).

Its good for you I reckon- physical reinforcement I mean- you don't ***** about it. I ran up a hill a day I think on basic, probably five when I tried guessing a corperals first name and was overheard. Only getting cut off from smoking or my smokes nicked by corperal really stayed with me (Me pleading: 'but corp it's our last one!?' corp: 'haere mai').
I really have no idea what the rules are but I think the line is drawn on hitting a soldier, though it can happen. Once in the unit(TF) they go fairly easy on you so long as you are not mucking around. Full time soldiers will have a much better idea then me of what goes on in our real army.
 
To those that say a My Lai could never happen in their out fit, then I wonder just how they would react if a number of of their friends had been captured then tortured to death most foul and you had to bring the bodies, once this has happen a few times then your patience can wear little thin.
 
MikeP said:
Marching over a cliff..For gosh sakes get real..
Don't understand how an actual veteran can make a satement like that.
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I wasn't suggesting that it ever happened ; but it was the scenario handed out to recruits in training, nearest was marching the squad directly at the barrack brick perimeter wall and with-holding the next command as the wall loomed ahead, no left or right turns, no about turn, etc.etc. The instruction following was that the squad should await the command.

There was, of course, every likelihood and tradition of being commanded 'over the top' into open fire and death. Ring any bells there??

One day at Maryhill, which was an old military prison in fact, our squad was doing just that, marching at the wall, trying to anticipate the next command, waiting for the halt; Sergeant Jamieson MM, WW11 hero gave the preliminary command from some way across the square - "Squaaaaaaaaad.................. ( squad waiting, waiting for it)....... just then a dog in the main road outside the barrack wall barked... and the squad slammed to a halt just yards from the wall. Jamieson was left open-mouthed and furious.
 
LeEnfield said:
To those that say a My Lai could never happen in their out fit, then I wonder just how they would react if a number of of their friends had been captured then tortured to death most foul and you had to bring the bodies, once this has happen a few times then your patience can wear little thin.
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My Lai if one studies it, was a break down from the top down not the bottom up. Anybody equating it with punishment of enlisted is throwing out a strawman argument.

And you are correct Para, right or wrong, highly trained or not emotions can carry an incident.
 
Those emotions, though real, are trumped by discipline, professionalism and leadership.
Plenty of guys have had those experiences and never put any women and kids in ditches and gunned them down.
That is illegal and not permissable at any time for any reason.
A lot more heads should have rolled over My Lai, but the coverup steamroller had done a pretty good job.

I was in country at that time and everybody I knew was stunned with absolute disbelief that such a thing could have been perpetrated.
We had old NCOs who had time in WW2 and Korea.
 
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