Sunnis or Shi'ite muslims where and why? - Page 4

January 12th, 2005  
Pogue Mahone
Originally Posted by Charge_7
"Just about all terrorists are Muslims"

Your words. I won't retract a thing.

Look who's not reading who. I said it twice before and I'll say it again. I never once said Islam wasn't open to criticism. I also said even my friend criticises parts of it.
Its a pretty easy thing to understand if you just try

I have clearly said that while most Muslims are not Terrorists - most Terrorists are certainly Muslim

Clouding the issue with the KKK or Basque's or whomever else you want to bring in won't change this fact which is, as has been pointed out, even been accepted by reasonable muslim sources

It is only the reflexive "I can't say anything bad about a religion" sorts of the West who continue to be blind to the issue

The question that springs from this is what is it in Islam that leads to such a dispoportionate number of terrorist groups, members and sympathisers

If it was poverty we would see large African and SE asian terrorist groups, or oppression surely the people of Tibet would be on the list

So yes - those were my words - I stand by them - you can't refute them no matter how much you are offended by this reality

If you choose not to see something, don't expect everyone else to agree with you just to be polite

Maybe you can clarify what you mean though - when you say you are open to criticising Islam - what do you mean?

Do you mean criticising some Muslims for mis-interpeting the Koran and acting in ways ( eg: 9-11, stoning women ) that are un-islamic?

Or do you mean that Islam inspires these bad things in its actual form, that the evil doers ( as President Bush calls them ) are following Islam in a way just as legitimate as your friend

Because there is a vast difference between the two
January 12th, 2005  
Pogue Mahone
Pogue Mahone wrote:
Pope in Islam is the Shiite version, Sistani in Iran for example
But this Sistani fellow he seems not to be to friendly towards for an example US but In good connections with the European leaders that seems to idolize this man for something I dont understand? He seems to be a very dangerous and radical man towards our western life-style if I quote my colleagues direct reaction and body language right with comment.

I don't reccomend him as the Pope Islam needs - only point out that he would be an example of a "Pope" in Islam The Sunni's have a Pope in every Mosque - and any one of them can issue Fatwas and call for death to the Jews with equal authority

I got the feeling that even the larger groups please correct me if I am wrong, feel sympathy for Insurgent and Terrorist attacks in a broader perspective when aggression is made against U.S or Russia for an example. I got an immediate feeling that there is more sympathy´s and moral support from this calmer groups then there is wholehearted condemnation of terrorist acts against civilian targets. For an example Palestine and deceased former leader Yasser Arafat in 2001 when he expressed he´s compassion with all the civilian victims in the US and on the same time there was thousands of Palestinian citizens celebrating on the streets with double delight then after this successful election in the future Palestinian state.

You are 100% correct - and this is why so much of this "but its a small minority who support Hamas, OBL, etc" is so much

Was that all Hamas members and familys I ask myself but there was more then green bands in those crowds when CNN and other news agencys showed pictures from the middle east. Maby I have got this all wrong when I take this up but in my humble opinion there seems to be more support for foreign attacks then amongs small minoritys that shares Islam as an religion? Maby this was just a biased slanted of our different medias? I dont see many middle eastern country leaders in censorious terms taking an active role to make there ppl do the same as Yasser Arafat did for an example?

In truth, our media hides much of the reality of ME hatred toward the West and Israel from us. It often presents the Pali's as unique victims of history. If your media showed a balance, sympathy for the Pali's would drop significantly
January 13th, 2005  

Topic: no one listens

Muslims and islams still stone women out in arabic countries such as bahrien/kuwait etc..........for any tiny sin. But they also hurt themselves.

Once a year people will line the streets and watch others punish themsleves with rocks etc on rope.........its a bloody thing they do and sometimes they kill themselves.

Muslims/islams have a different way to life than others...............but to come out right and say most terroists are muslims is crap. You could get sued for that sorta thing.

9/11 and such acts are done by certain muslim as they interpret their bible doesn't say by dying for your land your become a hero esp if you hi jack and kill innocent people.

Dunno if this is any help but i found it:

The Qur'an is not wanting in reminders of God's earthly retribution. The Shi'a literature, most of which originated after the deaths of 'Ali and his two sons, did not turn to this aspect of divine justice. This reflects that with the weakening of the political aspirations of the Shi'a they cautiously stressed a remote rather than an immanent justice of God. Any vigorous pursuance of the idea of God's immanent justice would have been suppressed by the Umayyads and the 'Abbasids. In fact too loud a drumming on the idea of the final judgement of the Judgement Day would have caused the indignation of those in power by suggesting that they were the damned ones.

The Shi'a, therefore, did not offer any drastic opposition to the excessively transcendental theology formulated under the sponsorship of the Umayyad and 'Abbasid caliphates. In Al-Bab al-Hadi 'Ashar1 of Hasan b. Yusuf b. 'Ali b. al Mutahhar al-Hilli (648/1250-726/1326), sections II and III on the Positive (Thubutiyya) and Privative (Salbiyya) attributes of God take precedence over the section on Allah's justice (Section IV). The Positive attributes enumerated in Section II are these: Allah is Qadir (Powerful), Mukhtar (Free). 'Alim (Knowing), Hayy (Living), Murid (Willer), Mudrik (perceiver), Qadim (Prior), Mutakallim (Speaker) and Sadiq (Veracious).

The Salbiyya qualities of God enumerated in Section III are these: Allah is not compounded (Murakkab); He is neither body (jism) nor accident ('Arad); He is not in a place (makan); He is not subject to pleasure or pain as He has no physical constitution (mizaj); He does not unite with other than Himself; He is not a locus (mahall) for originated things which would imply His being acted upon (infi'al); His ocular vision is not possible; He cannot have a partner (sharik); ideas (ma'ani) and states (ahwal) are denied to the Most High; He is not in need.

We see that in all these descriptions the Shi'a theology is not different fundamentally from Ash'ari theology which later set lastingly the pattern for the whole of Muslim theology. Perhaps the only significant difference in the above list of descriptions is reflected by the inclusion of the attributes Sadiq (Veracious) and Mutakallim (Speaker), the former being reminiscent of the Shi'a trust in God's promise of final redress, and the latter reminiscent of the following tradition attributed to Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq:

The Qur'an is neither creator nor created; it is the word of the Creator.
The Shi'a doctrine of the temporal createdness of the Qur'an, like their doctrine of divine justice, did not secure very zealous upholders, nor were they alone in stressing it, for it was as a Mu'tazili doctrine that it asserted itself during Mutawakkil's reign.

The primary implement of Shi'a theology is allegorical exegesis, which is based on traditions relative to Qur'anic passages and attributed to 'Ali. These are great in number. Here we are not able to present an analysis of that allegorical method. We shall only refer to a few verses from the Qur'an which the Shi'a cite to glorify 'Ali or Ahl al-Bait.

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I know generalisation is the most tainted thing at the moment but outta respect people shouldn't point a finger at a whole population just because a few people have done bad
January 13th, 2005  
Pogue Mahone

Topic: Re: no one listens

Originally Posted by Anya1982
The Qur'an is neither creator nor created; it is the word of the Creator.
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I know generalisation is the most tainted thing at the moment but outta respect people shouldn't point a finger at a whole population just because a few people have done bad

In the first sentence from your post above you have hit upon the essence of the issue - since the Koran is the literal word of God - it tends to be obeyed - literally

It is not subject to interpetation in the way that the Bible is for example

On the second point - its not a matter of pointing a finger at a whole population - the question is about the ideology of Islam

That a billion people subscribe to this ideology should not make it immune from critical study

If you begin with a very simple question - is OBL following true Islam - it will lead you to some disturbing conclusions

Because really OBL is following true Islam - at least as true as that of any other Imam - and his understanding of Islam is supported by more than a small minority of muslims

I agree that it is wrong to condemn an entire group for the actions of some - but I will never agree that it is wrong to condemn any ideology simply because too many people agree with it.