Was Stalin going to attack Nazi Germany?

M

mr Joker

Active member
Would he have done so if the Germans did not invade the Soviet Union? I think there were plans due to the danger the Germans represented to SU but I don't think Stalin would have attacked and initiated the war.

Personally I think he wouldn't as my estimation of Stalin is that he was cautious and wouldn't start a war as dangerous as that might had been, and a war with Nazi Germany would have very negative consequences even if won. If the red army recovered from the bad situation it was after Stalin's purges at a later date, Stalin would probably be even less in favor of attacking Germany when his army is powerful enough to limit Germany's threat to him. (When the army was seemingly weak but in truth Russia could not be defeated even then, I don't think at 1941 Stalin could invade Germany, and later I don't think he would have to and if the Germans had reservations before at launching Barbarossa perharps at a later date with a better regrouped and prepared Soviet Union, not only the generals but perhaps even the likes of Hitler might not have have agreed with Barbarossa.

Of course if we switched the leaders and put Hitler in the place of Stalin as leader of the Soviet Union (but he is not an Austrian/ sees himself as German but he does have the same pro risks personality), I think he would have attacked Germany eventually, but I don't see Stalin doing so. But I would like to hear some other opinions.
 
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In 1941 there was no chance Stalin would attack, the Red Army was a mess and in the process of rebuilding after a disaterous 20 years however 1943 I suspect he would have attacked.

By then the Red Army would had its new armour in bulk numbers and it would have had the Deep Battle concept perfected so I think 1943 is the year Stalin would have made his move.
 
MontyB said:
In 1941 there was no chance Stalin would attack, the Red Army was a mess and in the process of rebuilding after a disaterous 20 years however 1943 I suspect he would have attacked.

By then the Red Army would had its new armour in bulk numbers and it would have had the Deep Battle concept perfected so I think 1943 is the year Stalin would have made his move.
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Why would he need to start a highly costly war though when by 1943 Germany will be a lesser threat for the stronger Red Army?
 
That there was an intent on Stalin's part to attack the Germans, and that plans had been exercised to this effect. I'm sure that's true, however, what nation wouldn't have formulated offensive plans as an option. Still, that plans exist and are exercised is no clear indication of Soviet intentions. I believe it was probable that to Stalin, a war between Hitler and the Entente countries would turn into another WWI bloodbath which would bleed both sides white and leave them vulnerable to a Soviet incursion and I believe Stalin could find other rationalizations for preparing a move on Europe.
 
Der Alte said:
That there was an intent on Stalin's part to attack the Germans, and that plans had been exercised to this effect. I'm sure that's true, however, what nation wouldn't have formulated offensive plans as an option. Still, that plans exist and are exercised is no clear indication of Soviet intentions. I believe it was probable that to Stalin, a war between Hitler and the Entente countries would turn into another WWI bloodbath which would bleed both sides white and leave them vulnerable to a Soviet incursion and I believe Stalin could find other rationalizations for preparing a move on Europe.
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Yes I find this plausible of Stalin taking advantage of weakened Germany that would be an 'easier' target to strike against. However if that did not happen, then I while obviously not being able to be anything but unsure due to lack of conclusive data, I believe that Stalin would not have attacked a Germany that was not 'sufficiently weakened'. So if the Americans enter the war against Germany, Stalin might eventually enter the war and benefit from it conquering a whole lot of territory against Germany, based on what the Americans can do against the Germans.

But even if he does not interfere, Stalin will probably see Germany and British/others weakening theirselves in a war a win/win.
 
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mr Joker said:
Why would he need to start a highly costly war though when by 1943 Germany will be a lesser threat for the stronger Red Army?
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One book you may want to look into is: Stalins Falle: Er wollte den Krieg ("Stalin's Trap: He Wanted War"), by Adolf von Thadden.

It outlines the thoughts behind Stalins objectives however I will warn you that von Thadden is considered "right wing" or "nationalist" by many.
 
I think Stalin didn’t carry out this attack. Getting war against Hitler in his home is different to war in cold large Russia, in Stalingrad or Moscow, and without the US help, the victory was impossible. And I don’t see any motivation for the US to help the SU to give the whole Europe to them. If the SU attacked to Germany, It would have been better for the US to watch this war instead of entering to it. Two weakened rival is much better than one very strong rival.
I think Stalin would have preferred to live in peace with a very strong army and watched the Britain-Germany, the US-Japan and the others wars and waited for a suitable opportunity instead of entering to a useless war. This opportunity could be created by the US war against Germany.
 
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I think that Stalin learnt a lot on his attack on Sweden and he would have felt that taking on Germany some time in the next ten years would not be an option. As for planning attacks on Germany well yes there would always be there as a training excesses for Officers......Lets face it America was planning to invade Canada in the 1930's and even built military installations to carry out this attack and went under the code name Operation Pink
 
LeEnfield said:
Lets face it America was planning to invade Canada in the 1930's and even built military installations to carry out this attack and went under the code name Operation Pink
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lol I never heard of that. Learn something new every day.

As for Stalin, there were plans, but I don't think it would have been successful. The only reason the Soviets survived WW2 was the Russian winter, starting a fight with Germany on home soil would not have gone well.
 
LeEnfield said:
I think that Stalin learnt a lot on his attack on Sweden and he would have felt that taking on Germany some time in the next ten years would not be an option.
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err it was finland that the ussr invaded.

i personaly dont think that Stalin would have attacked hitler at all. ironicly hitler was the only man Stalin thought he could trust. shows what happens when dictators put their trust in others...:2guns:
 
I don't know my belief remains that the Soviet Union would have attacked Germany in or around 1943 and as far as I can tell this was the view of many German leaders as well, however I accept there is very little hard evidence to back this up outside fragments of Stalin's speeches.

One such speech which came to light after the break up of the Soviet union was made in early May 1941 in which Stalin is reported to have said...

it was time to prepare for war against Germany, a conflict that would begin soon. He cited the tremendous buildup of Soviet military power, both in quantity and quality, during the last few years. The recent German "occupation" of Bulgaria, and the transfer of German troops to Finland, he went on, are "grounds for war against Germany.
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The problem with this particular speech is that it has been written off initially as German Propaganda and then after the war as "apologist writing" as no actual copy of the text was available until 1992 when apparently it was discovered in Russian archives.
 
About the Rezunite (Rezun=Suvurov) of an imminent Soviet attack in the summer of 1941
1) There was no reason why Stalin should attack in 1941 (there were a lot of reasons for the opposite
2)There is no proof of Stalin planninf such attack(the opposite has been proved)
3)There is no proof that the Red Army was capable of attacking (all the sources are proving the opposite:I could give dozens)
 
Personally I don't agree, I think both Stalin and Hitler were the last great empire builders and few if any empires have fixed borders (Yes I know Hadrian tried this) and neither of them were the type to sit and watch the grass grow.

1) I accept that there was never to be an attack in 1941, the Red Army was simply in no condition to attack anyone in 1941 however 1943-44 it would have been a different story.

2) I agree the evidence for a Russian attack is very sparse at best however sparse and non-existent are very different stories.

3) In 1941 true as I have pointed out the Red Army was a mess in 1941 but that was not the case 2 years later.

Personally I think the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was little more than a paper of convenience for both parties.
 
The content of Stalin's speech in the Kremlin to graduates of a military academy,about a war with Germany,has been (and still is) much disputed .
IMHO,the traditional interpretation (=Stalin talking about an imminent war with Germany,which would be started by the SU)is nonsens .
Nobody will make me do believe that Stalin would babble publicly(to hundreds of people,who were drinking a lot of wodka)about the most guarded state secret :the same day,the whole of Moscow would know,and the day after,the German embassy .
 
MontyB said:
Personally I don't agree, I think both Stalin and Hitler were the last great empire builders and few if any empires have fixed borders (Yes I know Hadrian tried this) and neither of them were the type to sit and watch the grass grow.

1) I accept that there was never to be an attack in 1941, the Red Army was simply in no condition to attack anyone in 1941 however 1943-44 it would have been a different story.

2) I agree the evidence for a Russian attack is very sparse at best however sparse and non-existent are very different stories.

3) In 1941 true as I have pointed out the Red Army was a mess in 1941 but that was not the case 2 years later.

Personally I think the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was little more than a paper of convenience for both parties.
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As the Red Army was not capable in 1941 to attack(point 3),this is debunking all "evidences" for a Russian attack .
2 was excluded by 3 .
What would happen in 1943,is a What If scenario ,btw:the German army also would be stronger in 1943,not having suffered more than 2 millio losses .
 
I agree it is disputed don't get me wrong here I am talking more from personal belief here than fact but I believe that war was the logical outcome between two aggressive and expansion driven nations holding a shared border.
 
When Stalin received information that Hitler was about to attack Russia just what did he do, NOTHING in case the information was false and by moving any troops or aircraft or by putting them on alert would upset Hitler and cause him to attack Russia. Now is the actions of a man who thought his forces capable of attacking Germany and winning
 
No but they could just as easily been the actions of a man buying time to rebuild his forces first.
 
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