Split: Who started the Arab-Israeli Conflict

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Corocotta

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This is a split from the Bulldozer thread. It was getting offtopic.

May be we shoul remember that Palestinians and Israelis used to live together until British left Palestina. Then the secret jewish army( Palmach) began the war. Yes, the jewish began the war, and this is an historical fact. There have being many discussion concerning the UN resolution wich created the Israeli state. I am talking about the preasure many countries suffer to say YES to the creation of Israel. A Dominique De La Pierre and Larry Collins book called "Oh, Jerusalem" is vey interesting, because they expalin in a very objetive way how was the creation of this state. And please, do not tell me that they had the right to that land bacause GOD wrote it down in a paper.
 
May be we shoul remember that Palestinians and Israelis used to live together until British left Palestina. Then the secret jewish army( Palmach) began the war. Yes, the jewish began the war, and this is an historical fact. There have being many discussion concerning the UN resolution wich created the Israeli state. I am talking about the preasure many countries suffer to say YES to the creation of Israel. A Dominique De La Pierre and Larry Collins book called "Oh, Jerusalem" is vey interesting, because they expalin in a very objetive way how was the creation of this state. And please, do not tell me that they had the right to that land bacause GOD wrote it down in a paper.

Nice. When you take sometime off rewriting histroy, maybe you should read some more books...

:D
 
staurofilakes said:
May be we shoul remember that Palestinians and Israelis used to live together until British left Palestina. Then the secret jewish army( Palmach) began the war. Yes, the jewish began the war, and this is an historical fact. There have being many discussion concerning the UN resolution wich created the Israeli state. I am talking about the preasure many countries suffer to say YES to the creation of Israel. A Dominique De La Pierre and Larry Collins book called "Oh, Jerusalem" is vey interesting, because they expalin in a very objetive way how was the creation of this state. And please, do not tell me that they had the right to that land bacause GOD wrote it down in a paper.

Are you kidding? Have you got any idea of what history is all about?
 
The Jewish violence actually targeted the British.
Once the British announced the pullout and the UN came in motion to create both Israel and Palestine, the Israelis took the seat and started negotiations and alliance building. The Palestinians (not yet really a nationality just yet) just resisted and boycotted the meetings.
STILL Palestine existed as far as the UN's decision on the partition.
The day Israel was formally recognized, the Arabs (and the Palestinians as they were known as Arabs living in Palestine, and not as "Palestinians" yet) came charging in.
No more Palestine.
 
That is partialy true, the violence focused the british until they left. Then Israeli and Palestian started a non convencional war, using the terror ( both of them) as a weapon. Actually the jewish blew up a palestinian hotel, I can not remember the name, but I am looking for it....

I am not rewritting history this is all well known
 
Soon after the end of World War II, there were three basic para-military Zionist organizations in Palestine, working against the Arab people, with the specific purpose of driving it out of Palestine. These were the Haganah, the Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang.

Before the British Mandate, the Jewish settlers had formed a group of mounted armed watchmen called "Hashomar" and with the advent of the British Mandate, it became the Haganah (Defense). With a membership of 60,000 Zionist Jews, the Haganah had a field army of 16,000 trained men and a unit called the Palmach, which was a full-time force, numbering about 6000.

The Irgun Zvai Leumi included between 3000 and 5000 armed terrorists, and grew out of the Haganah and its Palmach branch in 1933. The Irgun was not ready to obey the Jewish Agency which sought to dilute the terror of the Haganah in order not to lose its respectability.

In 1939, one of Irgun's commanding officers, Abraham Stern, left the parent organization and formed the Stern Gang, numbering some 200 to 300 dangerous fanatics.

August 20, 1937 - June 29, 1939. During this period, the Zionists carried out a series of attacks against Arab buses, resulting in the death of 24 persons and wounding 25 others.

November 25, 1940. S.S.Patria was blown up by Jewish terrorists in Haifa harbour, killing 268 illegal Jewish immigrants (see below).

November 6, 1944. Zionist terrorists of the Stern Gang assassinated the British Minister Resident in the Middle East, Lord Moyne, in Cairo.

July 22, 1946. Zionist terrorists blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which housed the central offices of the civilian administration of the government of Palestine, killing or injuring more than 200 persons. The Irgun officially claimed responsibility for the incident, but subsequent evidence indicated that both the Haganah and the Jewish Agency were involved.

October 1, 1946. The British Embassy in Rome was badly damaged by bomb explosions, for which Irgun claimed responsibility.

June 1947. Letters sent to British Cabinet Ministers were found to contain bombs.

September 3, 1947. A postal bomb addressed to the British War Office exploded in the post office sorting room in London, injuring 2 persons. It was attributed to Irgun or Stern Gangs. (The Sunday Times, Sept. 24, 1972, p.8)

December 11, 1947. Six Arabs were killed and 30 wounded when bombs were thrown from Jewish trucks at Arab buses in Haifa; 12 Arabs were killed and others injured in an attack by armed Zionists on an Arab coastal village near Haifa.

December 13,1947. Zionist terrorists, believed to be members of Irgun Zvai Leumi, killed 18 Arabs and wounded nearly 60 in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Lydda areas. In Jerusalem, bombs were thrown in an Arab market-place near the Damascus Gate; in Jaffa, bombs were thrown into an Arab cafe; in the Arab village of Al Abbasya, near Lydda, 12 Arabs were killed in an attack with mortars and automatic weapons.

December 19, 1947. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blowing up two houses, in the ruins of which were found the bodies of 10 Arabs, including 5 children. Haganah admitted responsibility for the attack.

December 29, 1947. Two British constables and 11 Arabs were killed and 32 Arabs injured, at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem when Irgun members threw a bomb from a taxi.

December 30,1947. A mixed force of the Zionist Palmach and the "Carmel Brigade" attacked the village of Balad al Sheikh, killing more than 60 Arabs.

1947 -- 1948. Over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were uprooted from their homes and land, and forced to live in refugee camps on Israel's borders. They have been denied the right to return to their homes. They have been refused compensation for their homes, orchards, farms and other property stolen from them by the Israeli government. After their expulsion, the "Israeli Forces" totally obliterated (usually by bulldozing) 385 Arab villages and towns, out of a total of 475. Commonly, Israeli villages were built on the remaining rubble.

January 1, 1948. Haganah terrorists attacked a village on the slopes of Mount Carmel; 17 Arabs were killed and 33 wounded.

January 4, 1948. Haganah terrorists wearing British Army uniforms penetrated into the center of Jaffa and blew up the Serai (the old Turkish Government House) which was used as a headquarters of the Arab National Committee, killing more than 40 persons and wounding 98 others.

January 5, 1948. The Arab-owned Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up, killing 20 persons, among them Viscount de Tapia, the Spanish Consul. Haganah admitted responsibility for this crime.

January 7, 1948. Seventeen Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem, 3 of them while trying to escape. Further casualties, including the murder of a British officer near Hebron, were reported from different parts of the country.

January 16, 1948. Zionists blew up three Arab buildings. In the first, 8 children between the ages of 18 months and 12 years, died.

December 13, 1947 -- February 10, 1948. Seven incidents of bomb-tossing at innocent Arab civilians in cafes and markets, killing 138 and wounding 271 others, During this period, there were 9 attacks on Arab buses. Zionists mined passenger trains on at least 4 occasions, killing 93 persons and wounding 161 others.

February 15, 1948. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blew up several houses, killing 11 Arabs, including 4 children..

March 3, 1948. Heavy damage was done to the Arab-owned Salam building in Haifa (a 7 story block of apartments and shops) by Zionists who drove an army lorry ( truck) up to the building and escaped before the detonation of 400 Ib. of explosives; casualties numbered 11 Arabs and 3 Armenians killed and 23 injured. The Stern Gang claimed responsibility for the incident.

March 22, 1948. A housing block in Iraq Street in Haifa was blown up killing 17 and injuring 100 others. Four members of the Stern Gang drove two truck-loads of explosives into the street and abandoned the vehicles before the explosion.

March 31, 1948. The Cairo-Haifa Express was mined, for the second time in a month, by an electronically-detonated land mine near Benyamina, killing 40 persons and wounding 60 others.

April 9, 1948. A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, supported by the Palmach forces, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children. Older men and young women were captured and paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then shot in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul.

April 16, 1948. Zionists attacked the former British army camp at Tel Litvinsky, killing 90 Arabs there.

April 19, 1948. Fourteen Arabs were killed in a house in Tiberias, which was blown up by Zionist terrorists.

May 3, 1948. A book bomb addressed to a British Army officer, who had been stationed in Palestine exploded, killing his brother, Rex Farran.

May11, 1948. A letter bomb addressed to Sir Evelyn Barker, former Commanding Officer in Palestine, was detected in the nick of time by his wife.

April 25, 1948 -- May 13, 1948. Wholesale looting of Jaffa was carried out following armed attacks by Irgun and Haganah terrorists. They stripped and carried away everything they could, destroying what they could not take with them.
 
Well, I will research and ansawer all of this by sunday(this is the weekend,after all, and i am sick).

But just to start, I want to ask about why you posted the same occasions 3 times? Did you think people wont read it all and think there is a lot? Or did you copy paste 3 tmes on mistake? Either way, i suggest you edit it so that each occasion will appear once.
 
Okey sherman, hope you get better soon. As you can see i did not invent history, all this staff is related in many books such as "Oh,Jerusalem", a book of larry collins wich relates the history of the creation of Israel.

I would also like to say that I am not justifing the horrible attacks of Hamas, Hezbola, etc.
 
staurofilakes said:
I hope that all this information is enough....

Could you please include the source where you've copied this from?
thanks..
 
Watch out, Redleg. First the US, now Israel, after your post above I'm betting Norway's next on Stereoflakes hit parade.
 
If we are laying blame I would be more inclined to say its the UN's fault with Britain not far behind.
 
MontyB said:
If we are laying blame I would be more inclined to say its the UN's fault with Britain not far behind.

i'd say that their intentions were good, but you can't just create a new counrty out of thin air, somebody will be displaced and that somebody is going to get angry.....but then again, what was the alternative???
 
But thats the point, you just cant give away someone elses land to appease some dodgy 2000+ year old biblical claim from a bunch of disaffected europeans.

The answer was for the British/UN to hung around in control until such time as an equitable resolution could be found, after all until the end of the second world war Arabs and Jews had lived in Palestine in relative harmony.
 
MontyB said:
If we are laying blame I would be more inclined to say its the UN's fault with Britain not far behind.

I am gonna go the opposite, mainly Britain's fault (much like the problems in Africa) with the UN in a very, very close second. The main problem was that the UN did not consult the Arabs, if they had asked I am willing to bet the Arabs would have agreed, but as it is, the West did not ask, just told them to suck it up. Well the Arabs tried to destroy Israel, less than 48 hours after Israel declared independence they were simultaneously attacked by six Arab nations. Israel has always fascinated me, against the odds they have managed to pull through and utterly destroy their enemies, well that is probably going a little to far, but look at Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and the West Bank in comparison, most of these nations are now poor, third world countries and Lebanon used to be the backing center of the Middle East. This is not the fault of either the Jews or the Palestines, this is not really anybodies fault, it is just unfortunate how things turned out.
 
alright, lets start. I will beguin with staurofilakes post and than later on reach the rest of you.

Alright. staurofilakes, your post was full of incidents in which Jews carried out attcks on arabs. At first I meant to ansawer each incident in its own, But i decided to do cataghories instead. Non the less, let me start with your first paragraph:

Soon after the end of World War II, there were three basic para-military Zionist organizations in Palestine, working against the Arab people, with the specific purpose of driving it out of Palestine. These were the Haganah, the Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang.

Before the British Mandate, the Jewish settlers had formed a group of mounted armed watchmen called "Hashomar" and with the advent of the British Mandate, it became the Haganah (Defense). With a membership of 60,000 Zionist Jews, the Haganah had a field army of 16,000 trained men and a unit called the Palmach, which was a full-time force, numbering about 6000.

That is partly incorrect. Non of these organizations ever set out to drive the arabs out of Palestine. These organizations were focused on three main things:

1- Defending the ewsih population against Arab attacks- the Arab attacks on the Jews in Palestine started in the early 1920'. In 1919 the first major Skermish oocured in Tel Hai, when Arabs attacked a small Jewsih village and killed 8 men and women in a firefight. In 1920 Arab unrest continued to grow, and so the members of Hashomer( A small organizationj for protecting the Jewish population, the name meanning "The Guard"), and ex-members of the Jewish Regiments(who fought with the British against the Germans in WWI) to build a new organization. Hagana(Defense) was formed, meant purly for defense. It consisted mostly of farmers that at times of trouble took arms to protect them selves. Hagana never attacked any arab village with the purpose of taking it, before the the Internal war of 1947-1948.

2- Illigal immigration. After WWII the British maintained their policy of restricted immigration. This meant that houndreds of thousends of Jews who wanted to return to their homeland wre literally traped on europe(which in their eyes was a massive slaughterhouse). Haggana smuggled these people in.

3-Irgun and Stern Gang did set out to "Bomb the brits out". They thought the the only wy to make the British leave is by force. However, they acted mostly againstm ilitary targets.

So, no one set out to drive the arabs away from Palestine.


You continued to specify a long list of Jewsih attacks on arabs. I have a few problems with that list:
*It includes oly the events themselves and not the backround.
*While you set out to proove that the Jews started the violence, you failed in two ways. firstly, your list beguins in the 30s, while Arab violence started in the 20s. In 1921 and 1929 there were very harsh Arab riots, in which dozens of Jews were killed and many more uprooted. Whole communeties were gforced to fle their homes. Secondly, many of the incidents are attacks on either British targets(unrelated to the Israel-Arab conflict) or attacks on proper military targets. You even specified the explosion of the SS Patria, which was not even an act of terror... The Hagana dident just blow up the ship out of a frenzy. The British were about to send the Ship to Cyprus where the Jews were to be sent to prison camps. The Hagana meant to delay thsi, but an error in the amountof explosives caused a tragedy.
*Some of the things on that list are during the internal war in Palestine, when the Arab and Jewish populations were at each others throat. When you say "attacked a village", you fail to mention that Arab villagers launched their young men to attack Jews on a daily basis. Hence villages were military objectives.


Now, many of the things you mentiond were done by Irgun and the Stern Gang. This were not, as ou presentedit , offshoots of Hagana. Hagana had a Socialist agenda, while these were hardcore Capitalists. They hated Hagana and hagana hated them. Most of the Jewish population supported Hagana. Hagana pleeded with these organizations to stop their attacks on civilian targets, and when they refused Hagana turned many of them over to the British(in a period known as "Sezon"). The general publc did not agree with their attacks, infact some Jews were killed in a few of their more agressive operations. Even these people, who I agree were bordering between freedom fightin and terrorisem, usually warned the British before attacks. Even in the King David tragedy they called the British and told them a bomb was placed in the building. But the British ignored their warning.

As to your claimes about the uprooting of the Arab population...Well, the Arabs did run away. And Israel was not displeased by that. But they were not forced to leave. The only source that ever asked them to leave were the Arab armies who told the Arabs in palestine to get out of the way for a few weeks. They said that once they killed all the Jews, they will let the Arab-Palestinians back in. As to them being forced to live in refugeecamps, these camps were in Arab countrys. These countrys did not allow the Palestinians to intgrate into their society, because they feared instebilty. They prefered to keep the Palestinians as refugees and blame Israel.

As to your claims about Jaffa...Well, I cant say if its true or not. It might be.. But it was never Israeli policy and people caught with loot were treated harshly.
 
I do not know who began the violence, i don´t really care. With my post I was just trying to say that the palestinias heven´t been the only terrorist in Palestina. Until Israel was a State they also practiced the terrorism. I think that the problem was to create Israel and do not give a solution to palestinian problem.
 
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