I am new to this forum and would like advice on the design of a new APC-like vehicle for use in Iraq in urban combat and convoy escort.

The advantage in IRAQ has always been with the insurgents for one simple reason: Rocket Proplelled Grenades. That is because even heavy tanks are at risk from them never mind Humvees and Strykers. The question that haunts me is this: Is it possible to design an armored vehicle that will hold 6 to 12 men and that is capable of taking multiple direct hits with RPGs from all sides without losing any crew? Note that this vehicle does not have to operate anywhere but on the steets and highways of Iraq in the present.

I think several designs are possible so let me describe one concept

Consider a conventional, US style over-the-road tractor unit like a Mack or Freightliner with automatic transmission (Eaton). The cost of such a vehicle is only about $100K new so it is cheap by military standards. Adapt a standard trailer for that tractor and on that trailer place what is essentially a mobile "pill box" - a special hardened survival capule that has the best armor that technology can provide quickly. Make the tractor remotely controlled (easy to do). Add a very powerful offensive weapons capability (machine guns, grenade launcher, flame throwers and so on). The key requirement is that this crew capsule must survive any number of hits by RPGs, mines and roadside bombs and not only survive but survive to retaliate immediately with massive effect.

The problem I am told, is that armor that will meet this requirement is not available. (read: Give up, it is too difficult) But the more I investigate, the more it appears that adequate armor is available - especially if weight is not a major limitation which is not in this case. To start with, a couple of tons of "slats" armor as used on the Stryker, will render most incoming RPGs ineffective. The remaining armor on the capsule surface could be Chobham or some other advanced type, thick enough to eliminate virtually all risk to the crew. Lets say that the total armor weighs in at 50 tons. Will that do the job? I think so. (Oh yes, and partition the interior just in case, like the Bradley). Seems to me that netralizing the RPG would completely demoralize the enemy.

Note that the tractor and the trailer are considered doiposable items in this concept. If they are damaged by a mine or RPG, just get another set out of inventory - like the LIberty ships of WW2, make them faster than the enemy can destroy them. While the crew are waiting for a replacement tractor, they can defend themselves well and stay safe especially wth cover from other similar vehicles.

I think that is now very obvious that we need an almost nvulnerable vehicle in Iraq both for forays into urban areas (main streets) and also for convoy escort where surviving a first strike by the enemy is a mandatory requirement.

So, in the specific case of Iraq, is this the right type of vehicle for urban war and convoy protection? If not, what is?

Well, for RPGs, you dont need massive armour. What you need is some sort of cage around the vhiecle to keep the RPG from reaching the haul. Then the holow/shaped charge will shoot its streem of hot air to far away to damage the carrier seriously....Also, if you have somthing against cages, reactive armour will deflect an RPG jet away by countring it...Or you could just have 40 ton APCs made from old tanks, since RPG rouds almost never penetrate tanks.Oh, also, you could have a 40 ton APC with reactive armour, and a cage!!!! Here a couple of relevent discussions from this forum:

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum...opic.php?t=555

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum...?t=742&start=0

Sherman105
Yes, the slats I referred to are my post are the same concept as the cage you refer to. I would use them, of course, as I said. Thanks for the links. I had already read one of the theads in this forum. Two questions:

1. What would happen to the Isreali APC if it were hit by an RPG from a rooftop? Would the roof of the vehicle hold up to a direct hit? I was under the impression that it would not. And as you know, an RPG round can penetrate up to 18 inches ( 45mm) of steel.

2. Can the crew fight from inside these vehicles? Present strategy seems to be for the men to get out of the vehicles to fight on foot. My intention would be to keep them inside and fight - with heavier weapons.

Originally Posted by sherman105

Well, for RPGs, you dont need massive armour. What you need is some sort of cage around the vhiecle to keep the RPG from reaching the haul. Then the holow/shaped charge will shoot its streem of hot air to far away to damage the carrier seriously....Also, if you have somthing against cages, reactive armour will deflect an RPG jet away by countring it...Or you could just have 40 ton APCs made from old tanks, since RPG rouds almost never penetrate tanks.Oh, also, you could have a 40 ton APC with reactive armour, and a cage!!!! Here a couple of relevent discussions from this forum

Sherman105 LMAO that would be wild to see a 40 ton APC with reactive armour and a cage like the stryker vechile.

Well, the IMI developed special SMG/MMG turets that are activated from inside the AFV, so there is no need for the crew to lave the APC to fight....The turrets have night vision and all the things they need.

The AVF sound like an excellent vehicle for conventional street fighting and a lot more secure than a Stryker. But it is no use for convoy escort. It is 300 miles from from Kuwait to Baghdad and a reliable rubber tired vehicle is required. Plus, the crew needs more room for extended stays. I love the remote control turrets, though, which would be ideal for escort duty.

To take a city and hold it - as they need to do in Iraq - will take more than rapid deployment forces. It will take semi-permanent defensible positions commanding key streets and intersections. A purpose-built "rolling pill-box" will beat the general-purpose AVF for this function any day. Just think of a container truck - except the container is a super-armored fire platform. No odd shapes to protect as on a tank or APV. Commanding height. More firepower. Room to move around. Low cost. Got to be better! By the way, the purpose of these things is to draw out and kill the enemy - after surviving his ambush.

I think this are 2 diffrent AFVs. The first will be for the roads and second for the Streets. I think the Stryker is just fine for the roads if you add the RC turrets and "Cage" armour(maybe even reactive). Noe for the strrets, I think the heavies is the best you can get, i heard of many of them getting shot on by RPG, never heard of one knocked out....About the height how is this?

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapo...Nagmachon.html

Originally Posted by sherman105

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapo...Nagmachon.html

That was one ugly motherf**er....
But I'm sure it's effective..

I have seen the NagmaSho't many times in Lebanon, but I'm not sure if I have seen that one...

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/israe...-recovery.html

I remember that the most sophisticated of these ugly beasts were equiped for E.W, jamming or saturating all known frequencies, from remote control toys to cell phones, to detonate or prevent detonation of expolsive devices.

I am still surprised at the lack of reaction of our military: we should have something by know to open roads in front of convoys and stop the roadside bomb slaughter...