So why do people hate Israel? - Page 98




 
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October 22nd, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
And both sides are fighting for the ENTIRE land. So, make the entire land for both of them and both populations combined are not too many anyways.
If I gave and all your possessions to some other person who never owned it, would you want only a small worthless part of it returned in exchange for you giving up all claim to the remainder, or would you want all of what was yours returned to you?

What everyone so very conveniently ignores is the fact that the Zionists have absolutely no legitimate claim whatsoever to the land, other than perhaps that 6% or so, purchased prior to 1948, no more than you or I do to the land owned by our forefathers in foreign lands.

The major consideration in any proposed settlement must be that it must be seen to be "just". The victim must not be penalised
October 22nd, 2012  
hamidreza
 
I think any solution for Palestine's crisis should cover Palestinians refugees’ rights; otherwise it will be a defeated solution. More than 60% of Jordan’s people are Palestinian and there are many other Palestinians refugees in other countries. They will never forget their motherland.
I think the Palestinian refugees should come back to Palestine (I mean Israel) and decide about their country and about Jewish settlers in a free elections. They should decide if the Jews are allowed live in Palestine or not.
You might say it is impossible because Israelis will never let Palestinians to back because they are stronger than them or Arabs and they are always supported by US and west. OK, if they think this condition will remain forever, they have got their best decision.
But about the second or third generations, first why you don’t say anything about the second or third Palestinian generations who are living in roving, in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt or other places? Second, the second or third Israeli generations have motherland and it is where their parents, grandparents, grand-grandparents … were born and emigrated to Palestine. If they accept they are living on a land where doesn’t belong to them, they won’t have any problem to leave (at least with moral side). And third nobody wants to force them to leave Palestine by gun or fire or threat, the same as they did and are doing about Palestinians.
You might say my opinion is just illusion but I think any other solution will never basically solve the crisis. It just decreases the crisis for a short time but in a suitable opportunity it will increase again.
October 22nd, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
I agree that no solution would be perfect short of turning the clock back to 1933 shooting Hitler and stopping immigration to Palestine.

However given that we have not invented time travel yet I believe the two state one is the only one feasible, there is no way you are going to convince Israelis to go home and as I have said some of them are home, there is no way the two people are just going to shrug and let by gones be by gones and live happily together so all that is left is a compromise with a view to some form of reunification a long way down the track when memories fade it will not be perfect for anyone but that is just the sad reality of the situation.
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October 22nd, 2012  
Yossarian
 
 
Well I see no problem with saying in a religious and social sense of that being true.

The land can always be called Israel as a place, at least for the Jews. However this does not mean the Country it resides in has be an official state called Israel.

More or less an regional title. Not an official country.

Israeli leaders today show little regard towards the fact that the U.S. will be facing serious internal problems and will not stay so heavily involved in propping up relations in this region on their behalf.

At this point it will be their responsibility if they wish to have a place to live there to come together and resolve the injustices of the decades of theft from Palestine.

I agree on a two state solution, but only as a temporary step towards a unified Palestine/Israel.

An official state where Palestinians have their total rights that have been denied to them, rights to property, to vote for their own elected leaders, rights to important things such as attainable education, to worship and govern without any interference.

This state does not have to be called Israel, or even Palestine ( If the Palestinians wish it so).

But Israel needs to start thinking today about what their children will have to face in a Middle East free of Western influence.

Or else they themselves may find themselves in the exact same situation Palestine is in now. With no American aid to come to the rescue.

This issue does not have to have a end where one group is whipped out, this is not nor should be the answer.

However more mature methods such as Israel accepting what responsibility means and what peaceful transition means would greatly aid to the path of a one state.

Israel today is living the dream, but like all dreams they have a tendency to come to an end.



If I were an Israel politician today, I'd be doing everything in my power to stop the breaking up of Palestine, and building strong bonds with the nations neighboring Israel with large populations of Palestinian refugees.

And be focusing on the necessary reunification of the country, even if it means a new flag and national title. Working to build a country where three of the world major religions can coexist, and Arabs and Jews can live in a country side by side, but all having equal rights and equal goals as a nation.

Jewish, Muslim, Christian by faith but all together bound by country.

I honestly cannot see any other way Israel can survive if they choose other wise by the mid point of the 21st century.

For they will not call all the shots forever.
October 22nd, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
VDKMS posted an idea which I like. To make Israel and Palestine dependent on each other economically, quite similar as the original idea behind the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC)
That can be possible when Palestine becomes a state. Making Palestine a state is the issue now.
October 22nd, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
The world is slowly, but ever so surely waking up to the fact that the UN decision allowing the Jews to form the state of Israel on someone else's land was a mistake of gargantuan proportions. A mistake that has the possibility of killing far more people than the Holocaust ever did.
October 22nd, 2012  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
That can be possible when Palestine becomes a state. Making Palestine a state is the issue now.
It can be achieved prior an establishment of a Palestinian state on a micro economic level
October 22nd, 2012  
Yossarian
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
The world is slowly, but ever so surely waking up to the fact that the UN decision allowing the Jews to form the state of Israel on someone else's land was a mistake of gargantuan proportions. A mistake that has the possibility of killing far more people than the Holocaust ever did.
Indeed.

Israel today needs to consider it's place in the world of tomorrow. Regional powers are emerging, and when they do rise any armed conflict there will possibly be by that time without threat of Western intervention.

Meaning any war on Israel's behalf in it's current state will result in far more misery and death than admitting the gravity of their position facing the results of their actions.

For their future they should be making peace now instead of losing it all through war later. Or even worse for future Israel's face being exiled from their current homes just as they have done to the Palestinians, creating more strain and stress on already refugee laden countries in the region.

We are at a crossroads, a junction capitalized by a fading West and rising powers in the Region, names like Turkey, and possibly Egypt will become the mediators of the Eastern Mediterranean. Not the U.S., or NATO.

Israel today faces the notion of pushing towards a return of lands, as well as turn over of government to Palestinian residents there, and should focus on the construction of infrastructure in the currently Isolated areas to grant them the facilities and tools needed to form a new unified state. Such as schools, hospitals and other socially important centers. Not roadblocks, minefields and illegal settlements.

Or face the very firm fact that Israel's neighbors will in time, especially with lack of foreign involvement become ever more so Isolated and less likely to negotiate on the terms of the Palestine issue.

But that's the tragedy of humanity isn't ? As a species we can sometimes foresee a looming problem yet still voluntarily refuse to take action to prevent it.
October 22nd, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
But the problem right now is that the Palestinians have nothing to lose so they keep on fighting and the Israelis want more so they keep on fighting.

Therefore before you can achieve anything you have to:
A) Give the Palestinians something to lose if they don't stop fighting aka a state.

B) Remove the Israeli ability to take more by giving them internationally recognised borders and making it clear that they will get no more.

Once you provide separation and security for both sides then you get peace and lets be honest here the only way you are going to get rid of the radical Palestinians and Zionists in this process is to wait for them to die out 1-2 generations (50-100 years) then and only then can you look at merging the two states with any chance of success.





But this will never work until you put Palestinians on the same footing as Israeli's.
Palestinians want the land to become Palestine with no Israel so even if you give them a state they won't stop. But that doesn't mean they want Jews dead and all this crap the media says. I guess they would want Palestine ruled by Palestinians and Jews can live in it. Israelis won't accept this, once they had their Jewish state they won't let it go. On the other hand, Israel also have the same intention on taking the whole land. The difference is, one is playing it smart the other one is not.

If the Palestinians got a state, I don't think they would stop fighting. It's possible that maybe they will stop, we're only guessing right now. But, I doubt it.

Your second point, I give you a praise. It really disturbed me when an Israeli Prime Minister - I believe it was Menachim Begin- said "the borders of Israel are where it's soldiers stand." well, that's not going to work so, yes...stop them from occupying more land.

I'd vote for being ambitious. Instead of separating both sides, just eliminate that what makes them dislike each others. One of them would be the radicals, and I don't think the only way to finish this job is to wait until they die out. No, because poison breeds poison. They will say this crap to their children and their children will say it to their children and so on. I'd say instead of making the media keep delivering crap, start talking about a chance of happier life between both sides. And those who spread hate, the government issues very strict policy and laws regarding racism and whoever spreads racism serves a sentence or something. At the very least, this will decrease the amount of racism.

And the hate between them will fade eventually when the next generations start their lives already with each others so, it won't be weird.
October 22nd, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
If I gave and all your possessions to some other person who never owned it, would you want only a small worthless part of it returned in exchange for you giving up all claim to the remainder, or would you want all of what was yours returned to you?

What everyone so very conveniently ignores is the fact that the Zionists have absolutely no legitimate claim whatsoever to the land, other than perhaps that 6% or so, purchased prior to 1948, no more than you or I do to the land owned by our forefathers in foreign lands.

The major consideration in any proposed settlement must be that it must be seen to be "just". The victim must not be penalised
I'm not blaming Palestinians, did I sound as if I am? I'm not a fan of Israel personally so I doubt 1 day I'd be defending them. I'd want all what is mine returned to me, that's to answer your question. I'll tell you something, even if the Zionists own the land still they don't have the right to treat others like this, that's in the worst case scenario.

I don't blame the Palestinians especially when they saw European Jews coming to the ME claiming it's their promised land and all of that.

Right now, kicking Palestinians out is wrong. And kicking Israelis out is also wrong. The solution would be eliminate the hate and differences between both people and make them 1 big population. Then whether it becomes state of Palestine or state of Israel, we can talk about that.
 


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