So why do people hate Israel? - Page 97




 
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October 21st, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
Not a stupid question, if you hadn't asked it that had been stupid. There are people here supporting Israel and there are people here not supporting Israel. Both sides have their valid points sometimes. There are major issues addressed by Seno which I agree with sometimes and other times I disagree with him. Sometimes I agree with VDKMS, other times I don't, with saying that; I am trying to stay neutral and not support any of the actors in this conflict. I am, however, not so pleased with the discussion here. Instead of playing the blame game, I would like to discuss solutions, not the current situation. To achieve a solution, we need to think outside the box. Personally, the only way to achieve peace is for Israel to gamble and not playing the old game, which so many countries are playing. They need a two state solution, Israel has achieved a lot militarily, but they have screwed things up politically.
Personally, when it comes to the Palestine/Israel conflict. I say, both sides have committed warcrimes as both have killed innocent civilians and we all know that. The thing with Israel is that they usually like peace through military dominance. Like, when they took the Sinai from Egypt back in 1956, they said that they don't want it, they just took it to force Egypt into a peace treaty. Then, when political pressure got them out, they got pissed off and took the Sinai again in 1967, then when they had their victory they started thinking...Israel tripled in size, Arab armies are weak, we are the strongest. Then it ended up with Moshe Dayan saying something like "we do not need peace on paper as the peace we need was already achieved" then he followed by explaining how he likes peace through military might. And Golda Meir by saying "The Sinai is now Israel and it will be settled by Israelis."

In my opinion, if things stay the way they are, Israel will not last for too long. If they just live with their neighbors by the sword, well....we're going to see how long it will take for the sword to break. Especially, with their best friend America falling economically. Two state solution, I'm also skeptical about that. Because I'll tell you....the Palestinian resistance or whatever and Hamas they just want the entire strip to be Palestine, they don't want Israel on the map. And I'm sure, Israel also doesn't want Palestine on the map. If you remember back in the day during the "peace talks" or whatever, Palestine was going to be a country technically surrounded by Israel. So, they can't get their goods in without passing through Israel so it keeps Israel with the upper hand.

This conflict is really complicated. I honestly want it fixed right this moment cuz, that's too much blood so far.
October 21st, 2012  
hamidreza
 
Palestine crisis has just one solution. The aggressive Zionists back to where they have come from.
October 21st, 2012  
Yossarian
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamidreza
Palestine crisis has just one solution. The aggressive Zionists back to where they have come from.
Not an easy option, if it were so simple we wouldn't be weary of this conflict now would we?
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October 21st, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamidreza
Palestine crisis has just one solution. The aggressive Zionists back to where they have come from.
The problem is that wont work either, it may have 50 years ago but today you have Israeli's who are second and third generation they would effectively become stateless through no fault of their own.

The only option is the two state one with a view to a single state after 50-100 years of peace, the hard part is going to be getting Israel to accept the construction of a viable Palestinian state not the half dozen blocks of land they are offering but one single piece of land of a size viable for a functioning state.
October 21st, 2012  
Yossarian
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
The problem is that wont work either, it may have 50 years ago but today you have Israeli's who are second and third generation they would effectively become stateless through no fault of their own.

The only option is the two state one with a view to a single state after 50-100 years of peace, the hard part is going to be getting Israel to accept the construction of a viable Palestinian state not the half dozen blocks of land they are offering but one single piece of land of a size viable for a functioning state.
I support the two state solution as well as long as it is a building block for a eventual peaceful One State. One where Palestinians have all the rights to ownership and as citizens they have been deprived of.

And a chance to reclaim lost property over the years.

However since this most likely won't happen it seems we are on track for large conflict here or elsewhere due to this issue that will cause much more unecessary misery and many more deaths. Furthering my notion maybe there isn't as much that seperates us from the beasts of the wild than we think.
October 21st, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
I support the two state solution as well as long as it is a building block for a eventual peaceful One State. One where Palestinians have all the rights to ownership and as citizens they have been deprived of.

And a chance to reclaim lost property over the years.

However since this most likely won't happen it seems we are on track for large conflict here or elsewhere due to this issue that will cause much more unecessary misery and many more deaths. Furthering my notion maybe there isn't as much that seperates us from the beasts of the wild than we think.
I back the two state option simply because I do not believe a "South African" one state option will work (it is barely functioning in South Africa) I tend to believe that 50-100 years of peace creates the desire to maintain peace and I do not believe that the average Israeli wants the mess they have any more than the average Palestinian.

The problem is that for the plan to work Israel is going to have to become proactive in the peace process which means giving up the notion of a military victory, they will have to give ground and find a solution to Jerusalem and I don't believe that they are anywhere near prepared to do that.

So yes you are right nothing will come of the two state solution until Israel has to accept it and to do that they will have to be defeated and forced to the peace table and this is only a matter of time as Muslim nations like Egypt, Iraq, Iran and even Turkey grow stronger the likelihood of military action in the region grows as well, the only real question left is that after all this time would any of those nations stop once they gain the upper hand.

As I have said before time is not on Israels side, they are backed by a waning superpower, being out populated and faced by a hostile region over flowing with resources that the world is growing ever more desperate to get, I wouldn't like to be the bully with nothing to offer in that region.
October 22nd, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamidreza
Palestine crisis has just one solution. The aggressive Zionists back to where they have come from.
I'd vote for becoming 1 country for both of them. With very strict laws of racism and in the government 50% would be Palestinians and 50% Israelis. And no matter what none of them can control over the 50%.

I would say ridiculous people would fight over the name being Israel or Palestine. But, well...I'd say that this solution is the best we can achieve. Because I'll tell you something, no matter what, the Zionists won't leave and same for the Arabs. And both sides are fighting for the ENTIRE land. So, make the entire land for both of them and both populations combined are not too many anyways.
October 22nd, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
The problem is that wont work either, it may have 50 years ago but today you have Israeli's who are second and third generation they would effectively become stateless through no fault of their own.

The only option is the two state one with a view to a single state after 50-100 years of peace, the hard part is going to be getting Israel to accept the construction of a viable Palestinian state not the half dozen blocks of land they are offering but one single piece of land of a size viable for a functioning state.
Well...I think he got specific. He said "the AGGRESSIVE zionists" so, yeah...get rid of those aggressive zionists or the so right-wings and I can see a chance of peace.

And also it wouldn't be humane to just kick all Israelis out cuz as you said they're not to be blamed.

Two state solution, it has to be more than just that. I mean, you will make 2 states those 2 states can still be in a state of war. And now the conflict got bigger, instead of 2 groups fighting now you got 2 states. And countries that dislike Israelis will support the Arab state and send them weapons or whatever and Israel-supporters will keep supporting Israel and do the same thing and then it will be the same conflict but bigger. I think that wouldn't solve the problem, both parts of the conflict must learn to live with each others first before anything. And definitely getting rid of the so right-wings can help. Get rid of that who teaches the Israeli to hate Palestinians and get rid of that who teaches the Palestinian to hate Israelis and same for those who commit terrorist acts.
October 22nd, 2012  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Well...I think he got specific. He said "the AGGRESSIVE zionists" so, yeah...get rid of those aggressive zionists or the so right-wings and I can see a chance of peace.

And also it wouldn't be humane to just kick all Israelis out cuz as you said they're not to be blamed.

Two state solution, it has to be more than just that. I mean, you will make 2 states those 2 states can still be in a state of war. And now the conflict got bigger, instead of 2 groups fighting now you got 2 states. And countries that dislike Israelis will support the Arab state and send them weapons or whatever and Israel-supporters will keep supporting Israel and do the same thing and then it will be the same conflict but bigger. I think that wouldn't solve the problem, both parts of the conflict must learn to live with each others first before anything. And definitely getting rid of the so right-wings can help. Get rid of that who teaches the Israeli to hate Palestinians and get rid of that who teaches the Palestinian to hate Israelis and same for those who commit terrorist acts.
VDKMS posted an idea which I like. To make Israel and Palestine dependent on each other economically, quite similar as the original idea behind the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC)
October 22nd, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Well...I think he got specific. He said "the AGGRESSIVE zionists" so, yeah...get rid of those aggressive zionists or the so right-wings and I can see a chance of peace.

And also it wouldn't be humane to just kick all Israelis out cuz as you said they're not to be blamed.

Two state solution, it has to be more than just that. I mean, you will make 2 states those 2 states can still be in a state of war. And now the conflict got bigger, instead of 2 groups fighting now you got 2 states. And countries that dislike Israelis will support the Arab state and send them weapons or whatever and Israel-supporters will keep supporting Israel and do the same thing and then it will be the same conflict but bigger. I think that wouldn't solve the problem, both parts of the conflict must learn to live with each others first before anything. And definitely getting rid of the so right-wings can help. Get rid of that who teaches the Israeli to hate Palestinians and get rid of that who teaches the Palestinian to hate Israelis and same for those who commit terrorist acts.
But the problem right now is that the Palestinians have nothing to lose so they keep on fighting and the Israelis want more so they keep on fighting.

Therefore before you can achieve anything you have to:
A) Give the Palestinians something to lose if they don't stop fighting aka a state.

B) Remove the Israeli ability to take more by giving them internationally recognised borders and making it clear that they will get no more.

Once you provide separation and security for both sides then you get peace and lets be honest here the only way you are going to get rid of the radical Palestinians and Zionists in this process is to wait for them to die out 1-2 generations (50-100 years) then and only then can you look at merging the two states with any chance of success.


Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
VDKMS posted an idea which I like. To make Israel and Palestine dependent on each other economically, quite similar as the original idea behind the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC)

But this will never work until you put Palestinians on the same footing as Israeli's.
 


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