So why do people hate Israel?

Israelis have less time to run to their shelters and get NO warning from Hamas.

How does that justify firing artillery etc. at civilians?
As I see it this is just another one of your "all Arabs are the same regardless of nationality" justifications only in this case you are equating all Gazans with Hamas and you and I both know that is not the case.

You desperately need to find a counter for the old maxim of "two wrongs don't make a right" although given that Netanpsycho started this war because he couldn't handle a unity government I am not sure Hamas are in the wrong.


Hamas give no warning at all.
Yet Hamas has a 94% kill ratio of Israeli soldiers and Israel has a 75% kill ratio of civilians.

I suspect you are going to struggle to sell your argument.

Who says he is an IDF soldier and not a "Palestinian" fabrication?
"Idan Barir served in the Israeli artillery corps", there is the guy and that is what he did go prove he is a Palestinian creation although I would suggest that your attempt at an argument is more out of desperation than fact.


In 3 UN facilities Hamas rockets were found and in at least one occasion those rockets were given back to Hamas to attack Israel which means that the UN, who should be neutral, assisted Hamas in attacking Israel. Where is the UN investigation?
First off good they didn't go to waste then, secondly we are talking a total of 60 rockets out of what an estimated 10,000 and the schools had been abandoned long before any rockets were found therefore it is just as valid to say that 60 rockets were found in 3 abandoned buildings.

But no matter what arguments you throw out here Israel has lost this war because of its inability to fight smart, Hamas could never win militarily so you gave them the next best thing a moral victory there is not a country on earth now that is not seeing growing anti-Israeli protests and from that an ever more powerful BDS movement.
 
Seems the Pentagon share the same view as the former IDF Artilleryman.


Why Israel’s bombardment of Gaza neighborhood left US officers ‘stunned’

August 27, 2014 4:00AM ET
by Mark Perry @markperrydc

The cease-fire announced Tuesday between Israel and Palestinian factions — if it holds — will end seven weeks of fighting that killed more than 2,200 Gazans and 69 Israelis. But as the rival camps seek to put their spin on the outcome, one assessment of Israel’s Gaza operation that won’t be publicized is the U.S. military’s. Though the Pentagon shies from publicly expressing judgments that might fall afoul of a decidedly pro-Israel Congress, senior U.S. military sources speaking on condition of anonymity offered scathing assessments of Israeli tactics, particularly in the Shujaiya neighborhood of Gaza City.
One of the more curious moments in Israel’s Operation Protective Edge came on July 20, when a live microphone at Fox News caught U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry commenting sarcastically on Israel’s military action. “It’s a hell of a pinpoint operation,” Kerry said. “It’s a hell of a pinpoint operation.”

Rain of high-explosive shells
Kerry’s comment followed the heaviest bombardment of the war to that point, as Israeli artillery rained thousands of high-explosive shells on Shujaiya, a residential area on the eastern edge of Gaza City. A high-ranking U.S. military officer said that the source of Kerry’s apparent consternation was almost certainly a Pentagon summary report assessing the Israeli barrage on which he had been briefed by an aide moments earlier.
According to this senior U.S. officer, who had access to the July 21 Pentagon summary of the previous 24 hours of Israeli operations, the internal report showed that 11 Israeli artillery battalions — a minimum of 258 artillery pieces, according to the officer’s estimate — pumped at least 7,000 high explosive shells into the Gaza neighborhood, which included a barrage of some 4,800 shells during a seven-hour period at the height of the operation. Senior U.S. officers were stunned by the report.
Twice daily throughout the Israel Defense Forces’ operation, a select group of senior U.S. military and intelligence officers at the Pentagon received lengthy written summaries of Israeli military action in Gaza. The reports — compiled from information gleaned from open sources, Israeli military officers with whom U.S. officials speak and satellite images — offered a detailed assessment of Israel’s battlefield tactics and the performance of its weaponry, a considerable portion of it supplied by the United States.
Although these reports shy from offering political judgments on the operation, a number of senior U.S. military officers who spoke about the contents of those daily reports were highly critical of some of the IDF’s tactics, particularly in the Israeli ground invasion of Shujaiya. An official spokesman at the Pentagon declined to comment on the contents of this article.
On July 16, the IDF dropped leaflets into Shujaiya, warning residents of an imminent Israeli attack and urging them to evacuate the area.The next day, after a short artillery preparation, three IDF units, led by the Golani Brigade, began a ground assault into the neighborhood to destroy Hamas bunkers and break up Hamas formations.

....

 
....
‘Take off the gloves’

The incursion went well at first, with Golani soldiers meeting little resistance. But by late on Saturday afternoon, July 19, forward elements of the brigade were running head on into well-organized Hamas units, and some IDF formations were pinned down in vicious fighting in Shujaiya’s streets and alleys. What had been envisaged as a limited ground operation was not going as planned, with Hamas units emerging from tunnels and bunkers in attempts to exploit IDF weaknesses. The Hamas units were well prepared and trained, with their formations hidden so well that Israeli soldiers were rarely able to pinpoint their locations.
“The ground assault was poorly handled into eastern Gaza City,” an Israel civilian adviser to the IDF’s chief of staff said at the time. “The Hamas fighters showed an unexpected tenacity and were far more effective against our armored units than we’d anticipated.”
By late Saturday night and into Sunday morning, the fight had devolved into a series of vicious small unit clashes, with IDF squads facing off against Hamas squads, sniper units and teams carrying lethal anti-tank rockets. In one eight-hour period starting early on July 20, the IDF suffered 13 dead, seven of them in an armored personnel carrier that caught fire after a Hamas sapper team detonated an anti-tank mine beneath it. When the IDF moved to retrieve the bodies and the stricken APC, Hamas fighters targeted the rescue vehicles and engaged in gun battles with IDF combat teams as the rescue convoy retreated.
In the early hours of that Sunday morning, with IDF casualties mounting, senior officers directed IDF tank commanders to “take off the gloves” and “to open fire at anything that moves,” according to reports in the Israeli press.
The three Israeli units assaulting Shujaiya were never in danger of being defeated, but the losses the IDF suffered in the four-day house-to-house battle embarrassed IDF commanders. By the afternoon of July 19, even before Israel had suffered most of its casualties, the scale of resistance prompted Israeli battlefield commanders to blanket Shujaiya with high-explosive artillery rounds, rockets fired from helicopters and bombs dropped by F-16s. The decision was confirmed at the highest levels of the IDF.
By Sunday night, Palestinian officials were denouncing the bombardment of Shujaiya as a massacre, and international pressure mounted on the Israeli government to explain the heavy casualty toll being inflicted on Gaza civilians. The IDF told the press that Shujaiya had been a “fortress for Hamas terrorists” and reiterated that while Israel had “warned civilians” to evacuate, “Hamas ordered them to stay. Hamas put them in the line of fire.”

‘The only possible reason for doing that is to kill a lot of people in as short a period of time as possible … It’s not mowing the lawn. It’s removing the topsoil.’
a senior U.S. military officer

Kerry’s hot-microphone comments reflect the shock among U.S. observers at the scale and lethality of the Israeli bombardment.
“Eleven battalions of IDF artillery is equivalent to the artillery we deploy to support two divisions of U.S. infantry,” a senior Pentagon officer with access to the daily briefings said. “That’s a massive amount of firepower, and it’s absolutely deadly.” Another officer, a retired artillery commander who served in Iraq, said the Pentagon’s assessment might well have underestimated the firepower the IDF brought to bear on Shujaiya. “This is the equivalent of the artillery we deploy to support a full corps,” he said. “It’s just a huge number of weapons.”
Artillery pieces used during the operation included a mix of Soltam M71 guns and U.S.-manufactured Paladin M109s (a 155-mm howitzer), each of which can fire three shells per minute. “The only possible reason for doing that is to kill a lot of people in as short a period of time as possible,” said the senior U.S. military officer. “It’s not mowing the lawn,” he added, referring to a popular IDF term for periodic military operations against Hamas in Gaza. “It’s removing the topsoil.”
“Holy bejeezus,” exclaimed retired Lt. Gen. Robert Gard when told the numbers of artillery pieces and rounds fired during the July 21 action. “That rate of fire over that period of time is astonishing. If the figures are even half right, Israel’s response was absolutely disproportionate.” A West Point graduate who is a veteran of two wars and is the chairman of the Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation in Washington, D.C., he added that even if Israeli artillery units fired guided munitions, it would have made little difference.
Even the most sophisticated munitions have a circular area of probability, Gard explained, with a certain percentage of shells landing dozens or even hundreds of feet from intended targets. Highly trained artillery commanders know this and compensate for their misses by firing more shells. So if even 10 percent of the shells fired at combatants in Shujaiya landed close to but did not hit their targets — a higher than average rate of accuracy — that would have meant at least 700 lethal shells landing among the civilian population of Shujaiya during the night of July 20 into June 21. And the kill radius of even the most precisely targeted 155-mm shell is 164 feet. Put another way, as Gard said, “precision weapons aren’t all that precise.”
Senior U.S. officers who are familiar with the battle and Israeli artillery operations, which are modeled on U.S. doctrine, assessed that, given that rate of artillery fire into Shujaiya, IDF commanders were not precisely targeting Palestinian military formations as much as laying down an indiscriminate barrage aimed at cratering the neighborhood. The cratering operation was designed to collapse the Hamas tunnels discovered when IDF ground units came under fire in the neighborhood. Initially, said the senior Pentagon officer, Israel’s artillery used “suppressing fire to protect their forward units but then poured in everything they had, in a kind of walking barrage. Suppressing fire is perfectly defensible. A walking barrage isn’t.”
That the Israelis explained the civilian casualty toll by saying the neighborhood’s noncombatant population had been ordered to stay in their homes and were used as human shields by Hamas reinforced the belief among some senior U.S. officers that artillery fire into Shujaiya was indiscriminate.
“Listen, we know what it’s like to kill civilians in war,” said the senior U.S. officer. “Hell, we even put it on the front pages. We call it collateral damage.

We absolutely try to minimize it, because we know it turns people against you. Killing civilians is a sure prescription for defeat. But that’s not what the IDF did in Shujaiya on July 21. Human shields? C’mon, just own up to it.”

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/26/israel-bombing-stunsusofficers.html
 
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israel didn't steal any land, they bought it. i lived there, that's what they taught us in school. they literally bought it, the richer jews.
 
And if you went to school in Japan you would discover that they really didn't lose the war and committed no atrocities.

When dealing with a nation that has manufactured its own 3000 year old history in the last 70 years and clings to the fairy tale despite archeological, DNA and logical history stating the opposite I am not sure I would bother too much with what they teach in its schools.
 
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This last go between Israel and Hamas demonstrates that Israel has big problems right in their own back yard , tunnel war is a no win for Israel .
 
This last go between Israel and Hamas demonstrates that Israel has big problems right in their own back yard , tunnel war is a no win for Israel .

Yet they seem incapable of grasping that a "just" peace with the Palestinians will give them security.
 
I'm of two minds about Israel , I'm tired of hearing about the holocaust 6 million Jews were murdered but so were 45 million other people , we hear nothing about them ? , the Jews need a Homeland they could have picked a better place perhaps but ISRAEL does give America a friend in the middle east .
 
European Holocaust

I'm of two minds about Israel , I'm tired of hearing about the holocaust 6 million Jews were murdered but so were 45 million other people , we hear nothing about them ? , the Jews need a Homeland they could have picked a better place perhaps but ISRAEL does give America a friend in the middle east .

Without getting into the Israeli conflict. If your interested in the total European Holocaust
World War 1 to World War 2 Forum
Victims of the Nazi's Genocide total viewpoint?
 
I'm of two minds about Israel , I'm tired of hearing about the holocaust 6 million Jews were murdered but so were 45 million other people , we hear nothing about them ? , the Jews need a Homeland they could have picked a better place perhaps but ISRAEL does give America a friend in the middle east .

I am not sure I would consider Israel a friend given that it has attacked your ships, purchased your politicians, sold your technology to the Chinese and is considered your greatest threat in terms of spying.

As the old saying goes with friends like that who needs enemies.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/175404


http://www.newsweek.com/israel-flagged-top-spy-threat-us-new-snowdennsa-document-262991

As for the holocaust I agree I think it is wrong that we choose to sell the holocaust as the murder of 6 million Jews while we forget the 7 million others who died in the concentration camps or at the hands of death squads and the 10s of millions more who died in the conflict as a whole, and every one seems to have forgotten the Chinese losses completely.
 
I used the word friend in the liberal sense , I and many others have never forgiven the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty , the political maneuvering of Israel is not much more than what's done in the rest of the world .
 
I am not sure I would consider Israel a friend given that it has attacked your ships, purchased your politicians, sold your technology to the Chinese and is considered your greatest threat in terms of spying.

As the old saying goes with friends like that who needs enemies.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/175404


http://www.newsweek.com/israel-flagged-top-spy-threat-us-new-snowdennsa-document-262991

As for the holocaust I agree I think it is wrong that we choose to sell the holocaust as the murder of 6 million Jews while we forget the 7 million others who died in the concentration camps or at the hands of death squads and the 10s of millions more who died in the conflict as a whole, and every one seems to have forgotten the Chinese losses completely.

I think that people tend to gravitate to the European murders in particular that of the Jews in WW2 as the previous post details. However mention is made of the est. 10 million killed - murdered by the Japanese of which the greater % was Chinese, although plenty of Philippines, Burmese, Malays, POW's and other were killed as well. Their brutality was barbaric.
 
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I used the word friend in the liberal sense , I and many others have never forgiven the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty , the political maneuvering of Israel is not much more than what's done in the rest of the world .

Yes but had any other country on earth done these things you would have been bombing them by now, it is only the fact that AIPAC is running your country by proxy that has prevented this happening.
 
Japan was brutal but then pay back came their way big time .

The firebombing campaign against Japan, directed by Lemay in 1945, killed more than 500,000 noncombatants. This doesn't include the > 100,000 killed immediately by the atomic bombs. Note many died later of radiation.

A similar number of Germans died as a result of allied bombing during WW2 est. >400,000 to > 600,000.
 
Yes but had any other country on earth done these things you would have been bombing them by now, it is only the fact that AIPAC is running your country by proxy that has prevented this happening.

I often wonder what would have happened if the USS Liberty had been a Soviet or Chinese Ship, you think there would have been such a "mistake" made?

Heck even another NATO country like France, UK, or some other power AIPAC doesn't have its hooks into would have tolerated a "mistake" like that.
 
And if you went to school in Japan you would discover that they really didn't lose the war and committed no atrocities.

When dealing with a nation that has manufactured its own 3000 year old history in the last 70 years and clings to the fairy tale despite archeological, DNA and logical history stating the opposite I am not sure I would bother too much with what they teach in its schools.

Why do you keep telling those lies? It is beyond doubt that there was a Jewish kingdom (Samaria) 3000 years ago and it is certainly beyond any doubt that there was one 2000 years ago, Hasmonean and Herodian kingdoms of Israel, during the Roman empire. Most DNA research confirm that the Jews did in fact originate from that region but you only believe that one that that tells another story, allthough that research also admitted that the paternal DNA links the Jews to the ME.
I've given you those facts time and again, yet you only believe what you want to believe and ignore the facts.

Yet they seem incapable of grasping that a "just" peace with the Palestinians will give them security.

How can you make peace with someone who wants your destruction? Read the covenant of Hamas!

A two state solution? Hell, the "Palestinians" are teaching their children that Israel doesn't even exist. The geographical map of that region only mentions "Palestine". I think that makes it very clear what the "Palestinians" want.

After the Ottoman empire defeat it was split into several countries, just like in Europe where new nations were born. The muslim Arabs wanted it all. Those two tiny countries (Lebanon for the Christians and Israel for the Jews) was unacceptable.

The Holocaust? Are you trying to rewrite history? Did you forget or ignore what the Nazis were talking about at the Wannsee Conference? It was about the "Endlösung der Judenfrage". No special conferences were made to eliminate Gypsies, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses or the disabled. Two thirds of all Jews in Europe died in concentration camps. Two thirds!

I often wonder what would have happened if the USS Liberty had been a Soviet or Chinese Ship, you think there would have been such a "mistake" made?

Heck even another NATO country like France, UK, or some other power AIPAC doesn't have its hooks into would have tolerated a "mistake" like that.

Soviet pilots were flying Egyptian aircraft during that war and some of them were shot down.

May I also remind you that when Britain and France invaded Egypt to saveguard the Suez canal they were very glad with the help of the Israelis! France even send their warplanes to defend Israel in case of a counter attack.
 
Commentators in the Middle East have pointed out that the United States in particular and the West in general have created the terrorist problem by their policies, particularly support of Israel. I have no doubt that this is true. U.S. President Harry Truman was told by his advisors that if he wanted to win the 1948 Presidential election that he had better recognize Israel. He did so and won the election, against all odds. The U.S. has continued to support Israel ever since. The various terror groups have as their demands the abandonment of Israel and possibly even so radical a step as acceptance of Islam as the official U.S. state religion. Absolutely none of that is going to happen. If anything, support for Israel will harden. Each act of terror is one more nail in the coffin of these savages. It will take a while, but it will happen.
 
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The terrorist problem is not created by the United States in particular and the West in general, nor Israel. The problem is that Israel just happend to control the templemount, something the Islamists desperately wants because , to them, it's on Muslim territory. All peace negotiations between the Israelies and the "Palestinians" failed because the latter wanted control of the Templemount. The settlements are only a political problem created by the "Palestinians". Arafat once said that he could not explain to the Muslims that he accepted Jewish control of the Templemount. He said Muslims, not "Palestinians".
 
Why do you keep telling those lies? It is beyond doubt that there was a Jewish kingdom (Samaria) 3000 years ago and it is certainly beyond any doubt that there was one 2000 years ago, Hasmonean and Herodian kingdoms of Israel, during the Roman empire. Most DNA research confirm that the Jews did in fact originate from that region but you only believe that one that that tells another story, allthough that research also admitted that the paternal DNA links the Jews to the ME.
I've given you those facts time and again, yet you only believe what you want to believe and ignore the facts.



How can you make peace with someone who wants your destruction? Read the covenant of Hamas!

A two state solution? Hell, the "Palestinians" are teaching their children that Israel doesn't even exist. The geographical map of that region only mentions "Palestine". I think that makes it very clear what the "Palestinians" want.

After the Ottoman empire defeat it was split into several countries, just like in Europe where new nations were born. The muslim Arabs wanted it all. Those two tiny countries (Lebanon for the Christians and Israel for the Jews) was unacceptable.

The Holocaust? Are you trying to rewrite history? Did you forget or ignore what the Nazis were talking about at the Wannsee Conference? It was about the "Endlösung der Judenfrage". No special conferences were made to eliminate Gypsies, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses or the disabled. Two thirds of all Jews in Europe died in concentration camps. Two thirds!



Soviet pilots were flying Egyptian aircraft during that war and some of them were shot down.

May I also remind you that when Britain and France invaded Egypt to saveguard the Suez canal they were very glad with the help of the Israelis! France even send their warplanes to defend Israel in case of a counter attack.

Except that Suez was in 1956 and the USS liberty was 1967. In 1956 the French were supplying arms to Israel but in 1967 relations between France and Israel had disintegrated and they never would have tolerated a deliberate attack on a warship.
 
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