So why do people hate Israel?

[VDKMS]

Aww look VD has a friend and now he is getting brave.

Your problem is that 80% of the world have as much historical and religious claim to the region now called Israel and that includes the previous inhabitants aka the Palestinians (you know the ones that apparently don't exist in your world) as the Europeans that through Western guilt allowed into the area now called Israeli's although 70 years ago were called Polish, German, Russian and a host of other nationalities, the so called Israeli claim to a DNA link to the region is nothing more than background noise based on the fact that Ancient Canaan was probably the first place, outside of Africa, where ancient man first became "settled" another words we all came from there and it explains why the majority of the worlds population (not just Jews but Asians, Europeans more than likely Aboriginies and Polynesians as well) can trace its DNA to the region, it will be one crowded place if we all go "home" wont it.

On the bright side I see the Europeans have an interesting plan to cut all funding to both parties in this conflict in order to force them to a genuine negotiating table by essentially forcing Israel to take over responsibility for the Palestinians financially, I wonder if America can afford that?

Incidentally you once asked us to show you the ancient Palestinian capital how about you first show us the capital of Israel from 100 years ago?

You are missing a big thing here. They were called Polish, German, Russian and a host of other nationalities BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO SETTLE IN THEIR FORMER HOMELAND!. Their ancesters were expelled from their own country and not allowed to return. But they kept being Jews, just as their ancesters.

Up until Arafat told the Arabs they were now Palestinians there were none. look up all the official documents and they were called Arabs. Most of them came from other Arab and African countries in the 19th century.

DNA is about individuals and if you go far enough we're all related. This is about societies and states. Both of wich the Jews had in the past and now and the Palestinians didn't until a few decades ago with the help of Israel. Not one Arab and/or muslim country did that, not now not in the past, never! Without the help of Israel there would still not be a PA. That's a fact.

The capital of 100 years ago in that region was Constantinople (Ottoman Empire). The bible says Jerusalem was the capital of the united kingdom of Israel. But not only the bible mentions that, also the Book of Kings, the Book of Chronicles, Hidden Words and the Qur'an. This was almost 3.000 years ago. Jerusalem was also the capital of the Jewish Hasmonean Kingdom some 2.000 years ago. In the 7th century Jerusalem was briefly (15 years) in the hands of the Jews (with help from the Persians) and on 5 December 1949 Jerusalem became the capital of Israel. Jerusalem never was a capital under non Jewish rule until the "Palestinians" made their claim. They have no historical connexion to it whatsoever. The only reason is religious. Like I told you many times.

Of you, I have no doubt, and that is perfectly understandable, but my main risk would be being in your company, my B'tselem patch would keep me out of most harm except perhaps from those charming Israeli "settlers".

Ahh, B'tselem. That's the organisation that labeled Abdul Salaam Sadek Hassouneh, who killed 6 people and wounded 35 others during a bar mitzvah celebration before being killed by security forces, as a civilian casualty!

To a large degree it still is however part of me thinks it may also be one of the reasons for the forum drop off.
Seems to me that every Israeli that has taken part in this thread ran off screaming "anti-semetic" at the first sign of return fire which despite being kind of amusing for the likes of you and I probably does little for the forums popularity.

The forum drop off is because some members start insulting others when they have a different point of view.

 

[senojekips]

You are missing a big thing here. They were called Polish, German, Russian and a host of other nationalities BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO SETTLE IN THEIR FORMER HOMELAND!. Their ancesters were expelled from their own country and not allowed to return. But they kept being Jews, just as their ancesters.

The only reason Jews outside Palestine were not supposed to return, was because of their own religious dogma which denied them entering Palestine until the return of their Messiah, something that has not happened as yet to my knowledge. So far there is still no proof that the Jews were ever "exiled" in the first place, except in religious scripts which are acknowledged as not being reliable sources of fact.

The forum drop off is because some members start insulting others when they have a different point of view.

What about members who actively support the world's fourth (soon to be third) most despised State? Today's equivalents of Lord Haw Haw, Norman Baillie-Stewart etc. They would be enough to drive any members away who had the slightest moral backbone or sense of common decency.

Disgusting examples of humanity who actively support a murderous regime that has illegally occupied the land of other people driving the majority of the legitimate population into neighbouring countries, harassing, beating and murdering those who resisted. after which they steadily introduced laws that contravened both International law and the rulings of the UN, reducing those remaining legitimate occupants to the status of animals with a policy of continued and increasing oppression. A fact only compounded by insisting that the oppressed population have equal rights, regardless of the fact that there are over 30 laws actively discriminating against them?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ahhhh,... B'tselem [sarcasm](such a terrible organisation)[/sarcasm] the Internationally acclaimed Israeli human Rights organisation founded by a group of prominent Israeli lawyers, academics, Journalists and members of the Knesset. The Israelis who document human rights violations in the occupied territories, combat denial and try to create a human rights culture in Israel. Those who will one day help form the Palestinian equivalent of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre bringing Israeli War criminals to justice.

 

[VDKMS]

The only reason Jews outside Palestine were not supposed to return, was because of their own religious dogma which denied them entering Palestine until the return of their Messiah, something that has not happened as yet to my knowledge.

This is complete BS. You propably have it from this:

All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5)​

This is about Jews who are living abroad. It does not say that they are not allowed to live in their (future) homeland. Again a wrong interpretation.

So far there is still no proof that the Jews were ever "exiled" in the first place, except in religious scripts which are acknowledged as not being reliable sources of fact.

Wrong. When the Roman Hadrian destroyed Jerusalem he build a pagan city on top of it and named her Aelia (from his name Pulbius Aelius Hadrianus) Capitolina (the temple of Jupiter was on Capitolene hill in Rome). The new city was Jew free. No Jews were allowed to live there. The original population either killed or expelled. The Roman plan was to seperate the Jews from their land, that's also why they changed her name into Syria Paelestina. Every aspect of Jewish life was forbidden: no Sabbath, circumcision, public study and teaching of Torah, as well as observances of all Jewish ritual and customs. This is how they expelled the Jews. If they wanted to live like Jews they had to do it outside of their former homeland. The Byzantine Empire continued this policy. That's why you find (found) so many Jewish societies outside their homeland. Under muslim rule the jews were "allowed" to practise their religion if they paid the extra tax. They were also treated (as all non-muslims) at best as second class citiizens and they were not allowed to settle inside their former homeland. They were allowed into Jerusalem to be buried. That ancient and to Jews almost holy cemetery was completely demolished by the Jordanians and turned into a parking lot. Jews had to wait until the 19th century to be able to settle again into their homeland, at the same time that the Turks encoraged muslims to come to that region. The Tanzimat policy.

According to you the Philistines and the Israelis were not enemies because it is described in the Bible?

Or what about this:

The Bible gives specific details about the captivity of Judah by the armies of Babylon early in the 6th century B.C. (II Kings 24-25). Scholars have said it's all just another Jewish myth.

However, between 1935 and 1938, important discoveries were made 30 miles southwest of Jerusalem at a site thought to be ancient Lachish. Lachish was one of the cities recorded in the Bible as being besieged by the king of Babylon at the same time as the siege of Jerusalem (Jeremiah 34:7).

Twenty-one pottery fragments inscribed in the ancient Hebrew script were unearthed in the latest pre-exilic levels of the site. Called the Lachish Ostraca, they were written during the very time of the Babylonian siege.

Some of them are exchanges between the city's military commander and an outlying observation post, vividly picturing the final days of Judah's desperate struggle against Babylon!

Since the 1930s, there has been more unearthing of Babylonian historical texts describing the conquest of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar. The historical fact of the Babylonian captivity is firmly established.​

What about members who actively support the world's fourth (soon to be third) most despised State? Today's equivalents of Lord Haw Haw, Norman Baillie-Stewart etc. They would be enough to drive any members away who had the slightest moral backbone or sense of common decency.

Opinions, here are some facts:

As of 2012, Israel ranks 16th among 187 nations on the UN's Human Development Index, which places it in the category of "Very Highly Developed".

In September 2010, Israel was invited to join the OECD.[29] Israel has also signed free trade agreements with the European Union, the United States, the European Free Trade Association, Turkey, Mexico, Canada, Jordan, Egypt, and on 18 December 2007, became the first non-Latin-American country to sign a free trade agreement with the Mercosur trade bloc.

Israel exports were $62.5 billion in 2011 (seems lots of buyers don't care about your argument)

Or listen to what Warren Buffett has to say: Israel is “Most Promising Investment Hub” Outside of U.S. (anyone interested in investing in North Korea???)

Disgusting examples of humanity who actively support a murderous regime that has illegally occupied the land of other people driving the majority of the legitimate population into neighbouring countries, harassing, beating and murdering those who resisted. after which they steadily introduced laws that contravened both International law and the rulings of the UN, reducing those remaining legitimate occupants to the status of animals with a policy of continued and increasing oppression. A fact only compounded by insisting that the oppressed population have equal rights, regardless of the fact that there are over 30 laws actively discriminating against them?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ahhhh,... B'tselem [sarcasm](such a terrible organisation)[/sarcasm] the Internationally acclaimed Israeli human Rights organisation founded by a group of prominent Israeli lawyers, academics, Journalists and members of the Knesset. The Israelis who document human rights violations in the occupied territories, combat denial and try to create a human rights culture in Israel. Those who will one day help form the Palestinian equivalent of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre bringing Israeli War criminals to justice.

On what facts do you base your opinion on? Please give them.
It is not their land? Give me your facts based on international documents.
Give me your facts based on international rule of law that Israel is not allowed to retaliate or is prohibited from arresting terrorists.
Show me the Israeli laws, with references, that contravene international law.
"over 30 laws actively discriminating against them"??? List them. Give me the facts.
What about this:
Salim Joubran is an Israeli Arab judge on the Supreme Court of Israel. Discrimination?
Hussain Fares, and Arab, is a Major General in the IDF. Dicsrimination?
Jamal Hakroush, a Muslim Arab, is a deputy Inspector-General in the Israeli Police. Discrimination?
Arabs can be elected into the Knesset. They hold 10% of the seats. Discrimination?
Ra'adi Sfori, an Arab, is a Jewish National Fund director. Discrimination?
There are two official languages in Israel: Hebrew and Arabic. Discrimination?

If a man wants to drown his dog he first accuses it of having rabies.

 

[senojekips]

As usual your answer is based on religious scripts, none of which are regarded as reliable sources of fact.

Yes, sadly Judaism is only a religion, based on the myths and the desires of bronze aged man. A "one size fits all" explanation to explain away that for which they had no answers,... and even worse, Zionism, is based selectively on hand picked radical views from within those myths based on the reasoning of a Russian nut case who actually promoted anti Semitism to further his cause. (The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl. Vol. 1, edited by Raphael Patai, translated by Harry Zohn, page 83-84)

Founding myths shaken.
Is the Bible a historical text? Writing during the early half of the 19th century, the first modern Jewish historians, such as Isaak Markus Jost (1793-1860) and Leopold Zunz (1794-1886), did not think so. They regarded the Old Testament as a theological work reflecting the beliefs of Jewish religious communities after the destruction of the first temple. It was not until the second half of the century that Heinrich Graetz (1817-91) and others developed a “national” vision of the Bible and transformed Abraham’s journey to Canaan, the flight from Egypt and the united kingdom of David and Solomon into an authentic national past. By constant repetition, Zionist historians have subsequently turned these Biblical “truths” into the basis of national education.

But during the 1980s an earthquake shook these founding myths. The discoveries made by the “new archaeology” discredited a great exodus in the 13th century BC. Moses could not have led the Hebrews out of Egypt into the Promised Land, for the good reason that the latter was Egyptian territory at the time. And there is no trace of either a slave revolt against the pharaonic empire or of a sudden conquest of Canaan by outsiders.

Nor is there any trace or memory of the magnificent kingdom of David and Solomon. Recent discoveries point to the existence, at the time, of two small kingdoms: Israel, the more powerful, and Judah, the future Judea. The general population of Judah did not go into 6th century BC exile: only its political and intellectual elite were forced to settle in Babylon. This decisive encounter with Persian religion gave birth to Jewish monotheism.

Then there is the question of the exile of 70 AD.
There has been no real research into this turning point in Jewish history, the cause of the diaspora. And for a simple reason: the Romans never exiled any nation from anywhere on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean. Apart from enslaved prisoners, the population of Judea continued to live on their lands, even after the destruction of the second temple. Some converted to Christianity in the 4th century, while the majority embraced Islam during the 7th century Arab conquest.
Most Zionist thinkers were aware of this: Yitzhak Ben Zvi, later president of Israel, and David Ben Gurion, its first prime minister, accepted it as late as 1929, the year of the great Palestinian revolt. Both stated on several occasions that the peasants of Palestine were the descendants of the inhabitants of ancient Judea (2).

"In A.D. 70, and again in 135, the Roman Empire brutally put down Jewish revolts in Judea, destroying Jerusalem, killing hundreds of thousands of Jews and sending hundreds of thousands more into slavery and exile." Charles Krauthammer, Washington Post, May 5, 2006 "Well, now: We were expelled from the land and taken into captivity in the year 70 of the Common Era." Leonard Fein, The Jewish Daily Forward, May 11, 2007–07–23 "After Bar Kochba…Jewish emigration, a more or less permanent feature of ancient Palestinian demography, now assumed alarming proportions." Salo Baron, A Social and Religious History of the Jews (New York/Philadelphia, 1952), vol. 2, pp. 122-3.

Despite their ideological differences, what unites columnists like Charles Krauthammer and Leonard Fein, and what distinguishes them from Salo Baron,the greatest historian of the Jews in the twentieth century, is inter alia their acceptance of the myth that the Jews were forcibly expelled from the Land of Israel, and taken into captivity by the Romans. To this day, most lay people, Jews and non-Jews, accept the myth of the exile,.... whereas no historian, Jew or non-Jew, takes it seriously.

Even less so, now that the genealogical evidence of the world's most recently released, largest and longest running investigation into the matter has clearly shown that European Ashkenazi Jews have no connection with Palestine whatsoever but are in fact the descendants of Khazar apostates with some slight admixture of Mesopotamian bloodlines. Another nail in the coffin of the exile myth. In fact it could be successfully argued that there are more nails than coffin.

The other matters have all been proven here ad nauseam.
The fact of Israeli tokenism and it's intent is also well documented and recognised Internationally. Even Israel's discriminatory Laws are denied by them.

 

[MontyB]

For me this is the crux of the argument...

Then there is the question of the exile of 70 AD.
There has been no real research into this turning point in Jewish history, the cause of the diaspora. And for a simple reason: the Romans never exiled any nation from anywhere on the eastern seaboard of the Mediterranean. Apart from enslaved prisoners, the population of Judea continued to live on their lands, even after the destruction of the second temple. Some converted to Christianity in the 4th century, while the majority embraced Islam during the 7th century Arab conquest.
Most Zionist thinkers were aware of this: Yitzhak Ben Zvi, later president of Israel, and David Ben Gurion, its first prime minister, accepted it as late as 1929, the year of the great Palestinian revolt. Both stated on several occasions that the peasants of Palestine were the descendants of the inhabitants of ancient Judea

The majority of the inhabitants of what was Palestine are the original inhabitants of the land they may have started as Canaanites and became Jewish, Christian and Muslim depending on which empire ruled the lands at the time.
I have been convinced of this for quite some time now and it became somewhat more entrenched as DNA evidence began to indicate little more than a passing connection to the region that is present in around 80% of the worlds population more than likely explainable by mans exodus from Africa itself rather than Egypt.

Back that up with the fact that the "Great Israelite Kingdoms" archaeologically speaking never existed the whole Israeli national identity is little more than a fabrication based on wishful thinking and outright lies repeated often enough.

However there is one thing I do know, nothing we say here will change anything and the counter arguments will be something along the lines of the "ancient aliens" method of justification "something must have done it therefore aliens probably did it and if aliens did that then they must have done this as well" it is a self justifying argument that never proves its initial statement but relies on the assumption that if something refers to that initial argument then the argument must be factual.

It is funny you should mention that book though as I have just been given a copy of it, now I will have to make time to look at it.

 

[Yossarian]

In a far away land there is a wall...

On one side the have nots, on the other the privileged, and as of now the privileged are killing them.

That sums up about 95% of this topic. As well as our greater human condition on planet Earth.

 

[VDKMS]

As usual your answer is based on religious scripts, none of which are regarded as reliable sources of fact.

No, my answer is based on facts wihich you disregard, as always, because you cannot counter them so you start on something else you found on some other anti-semite, anti-zion, anti-Israel website.
Why didn't you just give your facts to my questions? Because you don't have them! They don't exist.

Religion is all crap? Jihadism has to do with religion and it is very well alive given factual eveidence of daily horrific attacks all over the world against all kinds of people. Jews, Christians, Hindus and Muslims alike.

Yes, sadly Judaism is only a religion, based on the myths and the desires of bronze aged man. A "one size fits all" explanation to explain away that for which they had no answers,... and even worse, Zionism, is based selectively on hand picked radical views from within those myths based on the reasoning of a Russian nut case who actually promoted anti Semitism to further his cause. (The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl. Vol. 1, edited by Raphael Patai, translated by Harry Zohn, page 83-84)

Is that a quote from the diaries???
here's page 83 -84, read it.
Page 83

Page 84

Even less so, now that the genealogical evidence of the world's most recently released, largest and longest running investigation into the matter has clearly shown that European Ashkenazi Jews have no connection with Palestine whatsoever but are in fact the descendants of Khazar apostates with some slight admixture of Mesopotamian bloodlines. Another nail in the coffin of the exile myth. In fact it could be successfully argued that there are more nails than coffin.

Again a lot of words without any links to facts. You did not read that report. did you? It is about the maternal lineage. From mother to mother. This means that when a man from the ME has a child with a woman from europe the maternal DNA points to Europe and not the ME.
The report also says:

...with the MSY results interpreted plausibly to suggest an overwhelming majority of Near Eastern ancestry on the Ashkenazi male line of descent...​

The other matters have all been proven here ad nauseam.
The fact of Israeli tokenism and it's intent is also well documented and recognised Internationally. Even Israel's discriminatory Laws are denied by them.

All been proven? You say that time and again without ever giving proof! It is not because it is written on a anti-Israel web page that it becomes fact.

What about this: Archaeologists Excavate Legendary City of Dan

...Translated, it proclaims his military victory and destruction of at least some parts of the Kingdom of Israel, and the killing of two kings of Israel. Notably, it contains the phrase "House of David" ["......and I killed [Ahaz]iahu son of [Jehoram kin]g of the House of David"], a phrase rarely, if at all, seen in any extra-biblical context. Today, many Levantine archaeologists and scholars agree that it refers to a royal dynasty of David and that the Tel Dan Stele therefore represents tangible evidence that there was indeed a "kingdom", or royal dynasty, of David.​

For me this is the crux of the argument...


The majority of the inhabitants of what was Palestine are the original inhabitants of the land they may have started as Canaanites and became Jewish, Christian and Muslim depending on which empire ruled the lands at the time.

on Al-Hekma TV, Hamas Minister of the Interior and of National Security Fathi Hammad blurted out the truth:

.."Palestinian” people are a fabrication, an invention..​

I've posted this TV clip twice, so you should know or you are affraid of the truth and didn't watch it?

Almost all "Palestinians" have Arabic names who point to where they came from. You seem to forgot the "Palestinian link" to the Philistines. At last you recognise that if that was true they would have names like Apollodoros or Paraebates (ancient Greek names). Don't you find it odd that "Palestinians" have last names like al-Masri (the Egyptian,), al-Djazair (the Algerian), el-Mughrabi (the Moroccan), al-Yamani (the Yemenite) and even al-Afghani?

I have been convinced of this for quite some time now and it became somewhat more entrenched as DNA evidence began to indicate little more than a passing connection to the region that is present in around 80% of the worlds population more than likely explainable by mans exodus from Africa itself rather than Egypt.

DNA is about individuals, we are discussing societies. Jewish and "Palestinian" societies. If you insist: Jewish paternal DNA points to where you do not want it to point.

Back that up with the fact that the "Great Israelite Kingdoms" archaeologically speaking never existed the whole Israeli national identity is little more than a fabrication based on wishful thinking and outright lies repeated often enough.

Again, your archaeological knowledge is poor. In case you didn't read my reply to Seno, here it is again:

...Translated, it proclaims his military victory and destruction of at least some parts of the Kingdom of Israel, and the killing of two kings of Israel. Notably, it contains the phrase "House of David" ["......and I killed [Ahaz]iahu son of [Jehoram kin]g of the House of David"], a phrase rarely, if at all, seen in any extra-biblical context. Today, many Levantine archaeologists and scholars agree that it refers to a royal dynasty of David and that the Tel Dan Stele therefore represents tangible evidence that there was indeed a "kingdom", or royal dynasty, of David.​

However there is one thing I do know, nothing we say here will change anything and the counter arguments will be something along the lines of the "ancient aliens" method of justification "something must have done it therefore aliens probably did it and if aliens did that then they must have done this as well" it is a self justifying argument that never proves its initial statement but relies on the assumption that if something refers to that initial argument then the argument must be factual.

As long as you disregard the facts I give, nothing you say here will change anything. But if you believe that you are right then please answer these questions with the facts you have.

Give me the name of a former Palestinian state, who was the ruler (King, President whatever) and what it's capital was, like:
The Hasmonean dynasty was a former Jewish state ruled by Antigonus II Mattathias (40–37 BCE) and its capital was Jerusalem.

Some other facts:

The British Governor of the Sinai (1922-36) reported in the Palestine Royal Commission Report: “This illegal immigration was not only going on from the Sinai, but also from Transjordan and Syria.”​

The British Hope-Simpson Commission recommended, in 1930, “Prevention of illicit immigration” to stop the illegal Arab immigration from neighboring Arab countries.​

The governor of the Syrian district of Hauran, Tewfik Bey El Hurani, admitted in 1934 that in a single period of only a few months over 30,000 Syrians from Houran had moved to Palestine.​

British Prime Minister Winston Churchill noted the Arab influx. Churchill, a veteran of the early years of the British mandate in the Holy Land, noted in 1939 that “far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population.”​

It is funny you should mention that book though as I have just been given a copy of it, now I will have to make time to look at it.

Oh, I have one for you too : From time immemorial

from a reader:

Joan Peters, a professional writer and researchers, received a grant from an Arab Foundation to write a history of the ancient roots of the Arab population in historic Palestine. The problem was that, when she actually began doing her research, she found that most of the common beliefs about the long history of that population are just inaccurate. In fact, she found that the majority of the current population descended from waves of migration beginning in the 19th century and peaking in the early 20th.​

Just like I have said time and again.

-------------------------

Here we have two people, one from New Zealand and one from Australia, who do not have any link whatsoever, not religiously nor archaeologically nor DNA wise, to the country they live in but they do feel they have the authority to deny Jews who do have a religiously and archaeologically and DNA (surely paternal) link to the country they now live in.

 

[senojekips]

You idiot. The source quoted was in relationship to Hertzl's promotion of Anti semitism to further his cause, You would fall on your arse a lot less if you read what I said instead of what you would have liked me to have said.

Zionism, is based selectively on hand picked radical views from within those myths based on the reasoning of a Russian nut case who actually promoted anti Semitism to further his cause. (The Complete Diaries of Theodor Herzl. Vol. 1, edited by Raphael Patai, translated by Harry Zohn, page 83-84)

You know Eran Elhaik's Report has been favorably peer reviewed and given the stamp of approval of the Oxford University and published by them. Google: "The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses"

the Tel Dan Stele therefore represents tangible evidence that there was indeed a "kingdom", or royal dynasty, of David.

What a lot of crap. The translation of the Tel Dan stele is at best, highly suspect, being the only written mention of the possible existence of a “House of David”, or “House of the beloved” or “House of the uncle”, ever found in over 160 years of searching. That would be like some archeologist finding one mention of my name, (or something that might possibly resemble it), in 2000 years time, and immediately coming to the conclusion I was the "Ruler of a mighty Empire"

During a fraction of the same time period, historians were quickly able to discover and name all the pharaohs that ruled Egypt their families and many of their court officials and lesser dignitaries, all the names of Persian kings, many monuments, that there are inscriptions demonstrating the existence of even the small city states,.... but there is not so much as one proven mention of the House of David, not within Palestine nor far more importantly, anywhere else, outside of highly questionable religious teachings, if such a kingdom ever existed, it surely must have been the world's best kept secret.

If King David was as great as he is portrayed in the Bible why is there such little evidence to prove his existence? Other empires with such accomplishments have left behind a lot of archaeological evidence. Conclusions drawn from this lack of evidence differ widely, from P.R. Davies (1994 p. 54-55) who states, “King David is about as historical as King Arthur”,... to scholars who argue that David may have some basis in historical reality.

That's hardly the sort of evidence upon which to base so many religious assumptions. It would not stand scrutiny in any court in the civilised world.

This has led a growing number of archaeologists to conclude David and Solomon never existed, and that Jerusalem was not the thriving capital of the Israelites. The question is an important one to Christendom, Islam and Judaism. The possible conclusions that can be drawn from the lack of historic evidence are: David did not exist - he was a religious legend; David existed as perhaps a tribal leader, whose achievements were exaggerated or glorified at a later date; or King David existed as portrayed in the Bible but evidence to support that claim is not yet available. The last option being the most unlikely bearing in mind the enormous amount of time and money spent looking.

 

[MontyB]

You idiot. The source quoted was in relationship to Hertzl's promotion of Anti semitism to further his cause, You would fall on your arse a lot less if you read what I said instead of what you would have liked me to have said.


You quoted exactly the source I quoted thereby verifying my quote.

You know the Report has been favorably peer reviewed and given the stamp of approval of the Oxford University and published by them. Google: "The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses"


What a lot of crap. The translation of the Tel Dan stele is a subject of great debate. The reference to the “House of David”, apparently, could also be translated to “House of the beloved” or “House of the uncle”.

Secondly, as shaky as it is, after over 150 years of dedicated archeological searching this possible mention is the onlyreference found to this mythological "House of David" or "House of the uncle" or whatever.
During a fraction of the same time frame historians were quickly able to discover and name all the pharaohs that ruled Egypt, all the names of Persian kings, many monuments, that there are inscriptions demonstrating the existence of even the small city states,.... but there is not so much as one proven mention of the House of David.

The funny thing is that you will get similar answers from many Israeli archeologists, I have just got through some work by Dr. Sharon Zuckerman who seems convinced that the Israelite invasion of Canaan never happened (primarily due to the cities of Canaan not being destroyed but rather falling into disuse over hundreds of years) and in fact has argued that the Exodus was not hundreds of thousands of people fleeing Egypt but rather a few dozen Canaanite slaves escaping Egypt meeting up with the remains of Canaanite villages and passing on their story.

It seems many of the myths surrounding the bible, torah and most likely the Qur'an are little more than fables written down hundreds of years after the fact and not eye witness accounts that seem to have been romanticised by European archeologists of the Victorian age and early 1900s who were more intent upon proving religious dogma by bending the facts to suit the answer rather than finding an answer to suit the facts.

The simple reality is that the longer people look at the "historical holy land" the less proof is found to back any of it, I would suggest that currently there is more archeological proof that King Arthur existed than King David.

I really wonder what would be left if we removed all the things that could not be proven other than a blood soaked sandpit that is.

 

[VDKMS]

You idiot. The source quoted was in relationship to Hertzl's promotion of Anti semitism to further his cause, You would fall on your arse a lot less if you read what I said instead of what you would have liked me to have said.

The reason why I posted the pictures of those papers is because you let it appear to come from that scource hence the link. People not familiar with that would have believed your imaginary description.

You know Eran Elhaik's Report has been favorably peer reviewed and given the stamp of approval of the Oxford University and published by them. Google: "The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses"

You must be kidding! Again the typical "Palestinian" and Nazi strategy. Bring up the lie first as big as you can and the truth must do a lot of catch up.

In the face of overwhelming evidence from dozens of studies over twenty years from geneticists and historians around the world, Elhaik is aggressively stumping on behalf of his belief that most Jews trace their seminal ancestry not to the Middle East but to the Caucuses and Eastern Europe.

The young Jewish researcher challenged the so-called “Rhineland hypothesis”—the broadly accepted genetic and historic evidence that about 80 percent of Jewish Ashkenazi males trace their ancestry to a core population of approximately 20,000 Eastern European Jews who originated in the Middle East. Elhaik wrote that the Khazars converted to Judaism in the eighth century, although historians believe and genetic evidence confirms that only a fraction of the population converted, including almost certainly royalty and some members of the aristocracy.​

you want more evidence that Eran Elhaik is wrong and not beloved by geneticists and historians? Read here.

You are still grasping at straws.

What a lot of crap. The translation of the Tel Dan stele is at best, highly suspect, being the only written mention of the possible existence of a “House of David”, or “House of the beloved” or “House of the uncle”, ever found in over 160 years of searching. That would be like some archeologist finding one mention of my name, (or something that might possibly resemble it), in 2000 years time, and immediately coming to the conclusion I was the "Ruler of a mighty Empire"

Let us for a moment assume you are right that it is the only written mention of the possible existence of a “House of David”, or “House of the beloved” or “House of the uncle”, ever found in over 160 years of searching. That's still a lot more convincing than the 0, null, zero, nada mention of the possible existence of a former "Palestinian" state or society.

During a fraction of the same time period, historians were quickly able to discover and name all the pharaohs that ruled Egypt their families and many of their court officials and lesser dignitaries, all the names of Persian kings, many monuments, that there are inscriptions demonstrating the existence of even the small city states,.... but there is not so much as one proven mention of the House of David, not within Palestine nor far more importantly, anywhere else, outside of highly questionable religious teachings, if such a kingdom ever existed, it surely must have been the world's best kept secret.

Ignoring evidence is one of your favorites when it comes to Israel.

Here is the translation of the stele's text:

1. [… …] and cut [… ]
2. And my father went up [against him when] he fought at […]
3. […] my father lay down, he went to his [ancestors] (viz. became sick and died). And the king of I[s-]
4. rael entered previously in my father's land. [And] Hadad made me king.
5. And Hadad went in front of me, [and] I departed from [the] seven […-]
6. s of my kingdom, and I slew [seve]nty kin[gs], who harnessed
thou[sands of cha-]
7. riots and thousands of horsemen (or: horses). [I killed Jeho]ram son of [Ahab]
8. king of Israel, and killed [Ahaz]iahu son of [Jehoram kin-]
9. g of the House of David. And I set [their towns into ruins and turned]
their land into [desolation… ]
11. other [… and Jehu ru-]
12. led over Is[rael... and I laid]
13. siege upon [… ]​

That's hardly the sort of evidence upon which to base so many religious assumptions. It would not stand scrutiny in any court in the civilised world.

When you go to court with an original written document mentioning Israel and David, you win the case hands down.

The funny thing is that you will get similar answers from many Israeli archeologists, I have just got through some work by Dr. Sharon Zuckerman who seems convinced that the Israelite invasion of Canaan never happened (primarily due to the cities of Canaan not being destroyed but rather falling into disuse over hundreds of years) and in fact has argued that the Exodus was not hundreds of thousands of people fleeing Egypt but rather a few dozen Canaanite slaves escaping Egypt meeting up with the remains of Canaanite villages and passing on their story.

It seems many of the myths surrounding the bible, torah and most likely the Qur'an are little more than fables written down hundreds of years after the fact and not eye witness accounts that seem to have been romanticised by European archeologists of the Victorian age and early 1900s who were more intent upon proving religious dogma by bending the facts to suit the answer rather than finding an answer to suit the facts.

The simple reality is that the longer people look at the "historical holy land" the less proof is found to back any of it, I would suggest that currently there is more archeological proof that King Arthur existed than King David.

I really wonder what would be left if we removed all the things that could not be proven other than a blood soaked sandpit that is.

Why don't you give some facts about the history of your beloved "Palestine"? Former kings of an ancient Palestine Empire who spoke Arabic and worshipped Allah? Any artifacts about a long forgotten Palestinian ruler? Any mention in ancient Syrian or Egyptian documents? Or let us just go back only 2000 years ago. Lots of Roman writers talked about the Jews and their homeland but no mention about "Palestinians". How come?

Because they didn't exist until a few decades ago.

You want evidence of "Palestinians"? Start digging in the cemeteries of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Morroco or Yemen.

 

[senojekips]

The reason why I posted the pictures of those papers is because you let it appear to come from that scource hence the link. People not familiar with that would have believed your imaginary description.

You think that everyone is judged as you are, a blatant liar, and must continually prove what they say. Unfortunately for you all the previous "evidence" provided by Jewish sources in the past is fast crumbling to dust, rapidly being shown to be little more than wishful thinking compiled by a succession of religious scribes. Which brings up the interesting prospect,.... that there is no evidence to say that even your much revered Tel Dan stele is not part of their religious ramblings. Being a singular highly suspect item, it is totally without any supporting evidence other than the fact that it might agree with the writings of the above mentioned religious scribes. As previously shown, religious writings are not acceptable as fact by anyone other than the followers of that religion and even many of them would have serious doubts.

Eran Elhaik's work is hated by those whom his work has proven to be a string of lies probably based on a predetermined outcome. Like I said, by the time a work is peer reviewed by an academic giant like the Oxford university and put to press there is little doubt as to it's academic credibility.

This type of behaviour is absolutely typical of the Zionazi lobby, who has an entire Government department, and organised support groups, solely to provide Hasbara and attempt to discredit the work of those who publish anything that shows Israel or it's people in an unfavourable light. No other state in the world has found the need to do this, did you ever wonder why?

Prime Minister Netanyahu has launched for the first time a Hasbara Ministry, headed by a government minister (the current Hasbara minister is Yuli Edelstein). The Hasbara Ministry includes a situation room, which operates in five languages; it has a new-media team that can reach, according to the office’s web page, 100,000 volunteers on social media networks, as well as many bloggers.

When you go to court with an original written document mentioning Israel and David, you win the case hands down.

And when you go to court with only one (1) possible singular fragment of evidence, (supposedly documenting the existence of a great Kingdom), the majority of which is missing and the meaning of much of it merely surmised, you Don't have a leg to stand on, as demonstrated by the remainder of my quote on the subject.

Read the bit about similar discoveries made in a far shorter time frame regarding the great abundance of available evidence found regarding far older cultures, yet we only have one vaguely possible reference to your alleged empire. ONE,.. (1). Naaahhhh,... It's more like (very) wishful thinking.

It's really odd, that we have far more verifiable archeological evidence relating to the 40,000 year old culture of nomadic Australian Aboriginals who have no written language, than you do to a supposed "great and powerful culture" only a few thousand years old.

 

[MontyB]

You think everyone is judged as you are, a liar and must continually prove what they say. Unfortunately for you all the previous "evidence" provided by Jewish sources in the past is crumbling to dust, rapidly being shown to be little more than wishful thinking compiled by a succession of religious scribes. Which brings up the interesting thought, there is no evidence to say that even your revered Tel Dan stele is not part of their imaginary works.

Other than the guy who 'discovered' Jesus tomb I have generally found Israeli archeology to be fairly honest, certainly it seems everyone that finds a ruin thinks they are digging up Davids palace but eventually they come to the reality that it is more than likely a canaanite barn and report it as such.

And when you go to court with only one (1) possible singular fragment of evidence, (supposedly documenting the existence of a great Kingdom), the majority of which is missing and the meaning of much of it merely surmised, you Don't have a leg to stand on, as demonstrated by the remainder of my quote on the subject.

Read the bit about similar discoveries made in a far shorter time frame regarding the great abundance of available evidence found regarding far older cultures, yet we only have one vaguely possible reference to your alleged empire. ONE,.. (1). Naaahhhh,... It's more like wishful thinking.

The problem with the David myth is many fold but the primary issues for me are:
1. There is no physical evidence of existence, for example Egyptians, Romans, Assyrians and Greeks were all meticulous scribes yet none of the mention him at all.

2. We know tons of information about the most obscure kingdoms and leaders throughout history even ones that had no written language yet nothing exists of the foundation for the three greatest religions in history, seems suspicious to me.

3. The whole basis of religion from genesis to exodus has absolutely no archeological support why should anything that developed from these stories be taken as fact if they cant even prove the root of the stories.

personally I think it is time people faced the truth of the matter and accepted that if a David or Joshua type character did exist in the past it is more likely they were village cheftains and not leaders of empires whos exploits were blown out of proportion by a mixture of Chinese whispers and wishful thinking much in the same way Homer did with the Trojan wars.

 

[senojekips]

Straight from the mouth of a Holocaust survivor.

Admittedly he did miss the more important words, Lying, manipulative, whining and Murdering.

 

[VDKMS]

You think that everyone is judged as you are, a blatant liar, and must continually prove what they say. Unfortunately for you all the previous "evidence" provided by Jewish sources in the past is fast crumbling to dust, rapidly being shown to be little more than wishful thinking compiled by a succession of religious scribes. Which brings up the interesting prospect,.... that there is no evidence to say that even your much revered Tel Dan stele is not part of their religious ramblings. Being a singular highly suspect item, it is totally without any supporting evidence other than the fact that it might agree with the writings of the above mentioned religious scribes. As previously shown, religious writings are not acceptable as fact by anyone other than the followers of that religion and even many of them would have serious doubts.

Eran Elhaik's work is hated by those whom his work has proven to be a string of lies probably based on a predetermined outcome. Like I said, by the time a work is peer reviewed by an academic giant like the Oxford university and put to press there is little doubt as to it's academic credibility.

This type of behaviour is absolutely typical of the Zionazi lobby, who has an entire Government department, and organised support groups, solely to provide Hasbara and attempt to discredit the work of those who publish anything that shows Israel or it's people in an unfavourable light. No other state in the world has found the need to do this, did you ever wonder why? And when you go to court with only one (1) possible singular fragment of evidence, (supposedly documenting the existence of a great Kingdom), the majority of which is missing and the meaning of much of it merely surmised, you Don't have a leg to stand on, as demonstrated by the remainder of my quote on the subject.

Read the bit about similar discoveries made in a far shorter time frame regarding the great abundance of available evidence found regarding far older cultures, yet we only have one vaguely possible reference to your alleged empire. ONE,.. (1). Naaahhhh,... It's more like (very) wishful thinking.

It's really odd, that we have far more verifiable archeological evidence relating to the 40,000 year old culture of nomadic Australian Aboriginals who have no written language, than you do to a supposed "great and powerful culture" only a few thousand years old.

Where's your evidence of a former "Palestinian" state? You always avoid that and jump to a period where there are only a few pieces of evidence that a former Jewish state did exist. But you also avoid the overwhelming evidence of a Jewish state during Roman times. Up until the 20th century there was no talk of founding a Palestinian state. Look up the UN records of the Palestine mandate, they only talk about Jews and Arabs, no word of Palestinians. Stronger, the Arabs living in the mandate didn't even want a new country but wanted to be part of Syria and later (because Syria was in the French mandate) Transjordan. The one who did the most work to found a Palestinian state was Arafat. Like most "Palestinians" Arafat was an immigrant who lied to the whole world where he was born.

Hebrew language :

Historically, it is regarded as the language of the Hebrews/Israelites and their ancestors. The earliest examples of written Hebrew date from the 10th century BCE.​

I now wait for your facts to prove that your beloved "Palestinians" have an older historical society than the Jews. Happy searching!

Other than the guy who 'discovered' Jesus tomb I have generally found Israeli archeology to be fairly honest, certainly it seems everyone that finds a ruin thinks they are digging up Davids palace but eventually they come to the reality that it is more than likely a canaanite barn and report it as such.



The problem with the David myth is many fold but the primary issues for me are:
1. There is no physical evidence of existence, for example Egyptians, Romans, Assyrians and Greeks were all meticulous scribes yet none of the mention him at all.

2. We know tons of information about the most obscure kingdoms and leaders throughout history even ones that had no written language yet nothing exists of the foundation for the three greatest religions in history, seems suspicious to me.

3. The whole basis of religion from genesis to exodus has absolutely no archeological support why should anything that developed from these stories be taken as fact if they cant even prove the root of the stories.

personally I think it is time people faced the truth of the matter and accepted that if a David or Joshua type character did exist in the past it is more likely they were village cheftains and not leaders of empires whos exploits were blown out of proportion by a mixture of Chinese whispers and wishful thinking much in the same way Homer did with the Trojan wars.

That's nicely formulated. Now, correct me if I'm wrong. This also implies that Muhammad’s claims to Jerusalem is a Myth. Right? This also implies that the Palestinian claim to Jerusalem is invalid. Right?
And there are lot's of evidence that Jerusalem was/is a jewish city. Right?

 

[senojekips]

Where's your evidence of a former "Palestinian" state?

You never answered my post, instead jumping to an entirely different subject, which as usual has been dealt with on several earlier occasions.

There is no need to provide evidence of an earlier Palestinian State as it has no bearing on this matter. If you are after answers regarding this subject I suggest that you re-read all of the earlier material already discussed regarding this deliberate repetition.

 

[MontyB]

That's nicely formulated. Now, correct me if I'm wrong. This also implies that Muhammad’s claims to Jerusalem is a Myth. Right? This also implies that the Palestinian claim to Jerusalem is invalid. Right?
And there are lot's of evidence that Jerusalem was/is a jewish city. Right?

So I take it from your reply that you can not disprove what I said?
Now on to Mohammads claims that he flew to Jerusalem in a night, nope don't believe that either (see when it comes to religion I am an equal opportunities hater) but the lunacy of his story doesn't make Jewish fairy tales anymore real does it.

So we are left with the same argument we started with, given that both you and I agree that those now calling themselves Palestinians were originally descendants of Canaanites as were the Jews (I assume we both agree on this as you posted the DNA evidence that proved it) we have to determine who has a priority in terms of legitimacy:

1) The descendants of the original population who stayed in the region and over time changed religions and now call themselves Palestinians.
or
2) The descendants of the original population who left the region for 2000 years mostly voluntarily as there is no tangible proof (archeological or physical) of the Romans marching off an entire population from anywhere and who now feel like they should be able to go back and evict population 1.

For the record I back group 1.

 

[senojekips]

---snip---
For the record I back group 1.

Yep, I reckon you have made a sensible choice.

 

[MontyB]

Yep, I reckon you have made a sensible choice.

I really wanted to get into some of this though but the upshot is the “Jewish people” were not building Jerusalem 3000 years ago, i.e. 1000 BCE. First of all, it is not clear when exactly Judaism as a religion centered on the worship of the one God took firm form. It appears to have been a late development since no evidence of worship of anything but ordinary Canaanite deities has been found in archeological sites through 1000 BCE.

There was no invasion of geographical Palestine from Egypt by former slaves in the 1200s BCE. The pyramids had been built much earlier and had not used slave labor. The chronicle of the events of the reign of Ramses II on the wall in Luxor does not know about any major slave revolts or flights by same into the Sinai peninsula. Egyptian sources never heard of Moses or the 10 plagues & etc. Jews and Judaism emerged from a certain social class of Canaanites over a period of centuries inside Palestine.

Archeology does not show the existence of a Jewish kingdom or kingdoms in the so-called First Temple Period, it is not clear when exactly the Jewish people would have ruled Jerusalem except for the Hasmonean Kingdom.

The Assyrians conquered Jerusalem in 722. The Babylonians took it in 597 and ruled it until they were themselves conquered in 539 BCE by the Achaemenids of ancient Iran, who ruled Jerusalem until Alexander the Great took the Levant in the 330s BCE. Alexander’s descendants, the Ptolemies ruled Jerusalem until 198 when Alexander’s other descendants, the Seleucids, took the city. With the Maccabean Revolt in 168 BCE, the Jewish Hasmonean kingdom did rule Jerusalem until 37 BCE, though Antigonus II Mattathias, the last Hasmonean, only took over Jerusalem with the help of the Parthian dynasty in 40 BCE. Herod ruled 37 BCE until the Romans conquered what they called Palestine in 6 CE (CE= ‘Common Era’ or what Christians call AD).

The Romans and then the Eastern Roman Empire of Byzantium ruled Jerusalem from 6 CE until 614 CE when the Iranian Sasanian Empire Conquered it, ruling until 629 CE when the Byzantines took it back.

The Muslims conquered Jerusalem in 638 and ruled it until 1099 when the Crusaders conquered it. The Crusaders killed or expelled Jews and Muslims from the city. The Muslims under Saladin took it back in 1187 CE and allowed Jews to return, and Muslims ruled it until the end of World War I, or altogether for about 1200 years.

So basically if you accept that it wasnt Jews that built Jerusalem given that Jerusalem has been in existence about 3000 years longer than Judaism has I think this is a fairly obvious claim you have:
- Jewish rule of Jerusalem about 160-170 years
- Muslim rule for about 1200 years.
- Egyptian rule for and unknown period but certainly at least several hundred years.
- Greek/Byzantine rule for about 400 years.
- Roman rule for around 450 years.
- Iranian rule for about 220 years.
- Iraq for an unknown period due to Assyrian and Babylonian invasions.

I am also reading a couple of papers which claim Jerusalem was not inhabited between 1000 and 900 BCE which would indicate that Jerusalem can not be the city of David but I havent finished those yet.

But lets face it who needs archeology, research, peer review or fact when you can just make up a history.

 

[MontyB]

Yep, I reckon you have made a sensible choice.

I really wanted to get into some of this though but the upshot is the “Jewish people” were not building Jerusalem 3000 years ago, i.e. 1000 BCE. It is not clear when exactly Judaism as a religion centered on the worship of the one God took firm form. It appears to have been a late development since no evidence of worship of anything but ordinary Canaanite deities has been found in archeological sites through 1000 BCE.

There was no invasion of geographical Palestine from Egypt by former slaves in the 1200s BCE. The pyramids had been built much earlier and had not used slave labor. The chronicle of the events of the reign of Ramses II on the wall in Luxor does not know about any major slave revolts or flights by same into the Sinai peninsula. Egyptian sources never heard of Moses or the 10 plagues & etc. Jews and Judaism emerged from a certain social class of Canaanites over a period of centuries inside Palestine.

Archeology does not show the existence of a Jewish kingdom or kingdoms in the so-called First Temple Period, it is not clear when exactly the Jewish people would have ruled Jerusalem except for the Hasmonean Kingdom.

The Assyrians conquered Jerusalem in 722. The Babylonians took it in 597 and ruled it until they were themselves conquered in 539 BCE by the Achaemenids of ancient Iran, who ruled Jerusalem until Alexander the Great took the Levant in the 330s BCE. Alexander’s descendants, the Ptolemies ruled Jerusalem until 198 when Alexander’s other descendants, the Seleucids, took the city. With the Maccabean Revolt in 168 BCE, the Jewish Hasmonean kingdom did rule Jerusalem until 37 BCE, though Antigonus II Mattathias, the last Hasmonean, only took over Jerusalem with the help of the Parthian dynasty in 40 BCE. Herod ruled 37 BCE until the Romans conquered what they called Palestine in 6 CE (CE= ‘Common Era’ or what Christians call AD).

The Romans and then the Eastern Roman Empire of Byzantium ruled Jerusalem from 6 CE until 614 CE when the Iranian Sasanian Empire Conquered it, ruling until 629 CE when the Byzantines took it back.

The Muslims conquered Jerusalem in 638 and ruled it until 1099 when the Crusaders conquered it. The Crusaders killed or expelled Jews and Muslims from the city. The Muslims under Saladin took it back in 1187 CE and allowed Jews to return, and Muslims ruled it until the end of World War I, or altogether for about 1200 years.

So basically if you accept that it wasnt Jews that built Jerusalem given that Jerusalem has been in existence about 3000 years longer than Judaism has I think this is a fairly obvious claim you have:
- Jewish rule of Jerusalem about 160-170 years
- Muslim rule for about 1200 years.
- Egyptian rule for and unknown period but certainly at least several hundred years.
- Greek/Byzantine rule for about 400 years.
- Roman rule for around 450 years.
- Iranian rule for about 220 years.
- Iraq for an unknown period due to Assyrian and Babylonian invasions.

I am also reading a couple of papers which claim Jerusalem was not inhabited between 1000 and 900 BCE which would indicate that Jerusalem can not be the city of David but I havent finished those yet.

But lets face it who needs archeology, research, peer review or fact when you can just make up a history.

 

[MontyB]

Yep, I reckon you have made a sensible choice.

I really wanted to get into some of this though but the upshot is the “Jewish people” were not building Jerusalem 3000 years ago, i.e. 1000 BCE. It is not clear when exactly Judaism as a religion centered on the worship of the one God took firm form. It appears to have been a late development since no evidence of worship of anything but ordinary Canaanite deities has been found in archeological sites through 1000 BCE.

There was no invasion of geographical Palestine from Egypt by former slaves in the 1200s BCE. The pyramids had been built much earlier and had not used slave labor. The chronicle of the events of the reign of Ramses II on the wall in Luxor does not know about any major slave revolts or flights by same into the Sinai peninsula. Egyptian sources never heard of Moses or the 10 plagues & etc. Jews and Judaism emerged from a certain social class of Canaanites over a period of centuries inside Palestine.

Archeology does not show the existence of a Jewish kingdom or kingdoms in the so-called First Temple Period, it is not clear when exactly the Jewish people would have ruled Jerusalem except for the Hasmonean Kingdom.

The Assyrians conquered Jerusalem in 722. The Babylonians took it in 597 and ruled it until they were themselves conquered in 539 BCE by the Achaemenids of ancient Iran, who ruled Jerusalem until Alexander the Great took the Levant in the 330s BCE. Alexander’s descendants, the Ptolemies ruled Jerusalem until 198 when Alexander’s other descendants, the Seleucids, took the city. With the Maccabean Revolt in 168 BCE, the Jewish Hasmonean kingdom did rule Jerusalem until 37 BCE, though Antigonus II Mattathias, the last Hasmonean, only took over Jerusalem with the help of the Parthian dynasty in 40 BCE. Herod ruled 37 BCE until the Romans conquered what they called Palestine in 6 CE (CE= ‘Common Era’ or what Christians call AD).

The Romans and then the Eastern Roman Empire of Byzantium ruled Jerusalem from 6 CE until 614 CE when the Iranian Sasanian Empire Conquered it, ruling until 629 CE when the Byzantines took it back.

The Muslims conquered Jerusalem in 638 and ruled it until 1099 when the Crusaders conquered it. The Crusaders killed or expelled Jews and Muslims from the city. The Muslims under Saladin took it back in 1187 CE and allowed Jews to return, and Muslims ruled it until the end of World War I, or altogether for about 1200 years.

So basically if you accept that it wasnt Jews that built Jerusalem given that Jerusalem has been in existence about 3000 years longer than Judaism has I think this is a fairly obvious claim you have:
- Jewish rule of Jerusalem about 160-170 years
- Muslim rule for about 1200 years.
- Egyptian rule for and unknown period but certainly at least several hundred years.
- Greek/Byzantine rule for about 400 years.
- Roman rule for around 450 years.
- Iranian rule for about 220 years.
- Iraq for an unknown period due to Assyrian and Babylonian invasions.

I am also reading a couple of papers which claim Jerusalem was not inhabited between 1000 and 900 BCE which would indicate that Jerusalem can not be the city of David but I havent finished those yet.

But lets face it who needs archeology, research, peer review or fact when you can just make up a history, still I guess I should be thanking VD for keeping this topic alive as I have learned a lot about the region thanks to the fun in countering his arguments unfortunately nothing of what I have read seems to support his argument.

Oh and for the record it would also seem that the regions of Israel and Judea were regions of Palestine comprising about one third of the land mass Israel covers currently.