So why do people hate Israel? - Page 6




 
--
 
December 2nd, 2011  
RayManKiller3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seehund
Can´t we keep the truce here at Christmas. So we can discuss this topic on a reasonable level.

....I won't bother arguing during Christmas break. I am just trying to get Seno to understand certain things. It is great he has an opinion and want to oppose what he thinks is not right, but he does it in the most biased of ways. That is what I am continuing on in vain for.

Look at every post regarding something Israeli-related; look at the posts on "Arab soldiers in the Israeli Army". With one post, he completely blew the situation up, sure we can ignore it, but then people will see one view and won't get the other.

We know Israeli was founded on terrorism (technically, so was USA), do we or Israel habor terrorists at this moment? No, so it is irrelevant.

What we need to do is focus on what is happening now, because doing a reverse is not the best idea, especially since Israel is a soveriegn nation and is recognized as one. You can't tell a soveriegn nation to begone because they "stole" land and not look at your own country simply because "there are laws that was put in place afterwards". I have already proved that a person can and may (depending on the situation) be punished under law if a law was created after his crime.

His goal is the destruction of Israel, which will lead to violent events under Arab control. If he is so against Israel, why isn't he condemning the Arab and European expulsions of Jews (as it seems he likes to talk about how Jews expels Palestinians). This happened AFTER the U.N was created. If United States went to any other country and destroyed their populace just before the U.N was created, should we not be punished? Hell, yes, but who is going to do it?

You can not have your cake and eat it too. If you are going to make a case, make sure it has not contradictory in it.

United States, while it backs Israel, does not ALWAYS take Israel's side. This situation is too complicated for a simple answer.
December 2nd, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I have provided evidence of all of my statements and you have usually provided opinions, sorry. The reason that i don't answer again is that you tried this "circular argument" earlier and I am awake to your childlike ploy of just denying answers and re asking them in a different way hoping for a different answer.
Either way i disproved your point, so what are you trying to say? there was absolutely nothing wrong with my link except in your eyes because it destroyed your rather pathetic argument that the IDF's aim was to protect (Palestinian) civilians.
You never were able to disprove my facts and the reason you do not answer my questions is because you can't, otherwise you have to admit that you are wrong.

Quote:
If your pathetic excuse was legitimate, which it is not, that would mean that you feel it is perfectly reasonable for the IDF to deliberately and randomly shoot at civilians going about their daily work? I can't help that they are not able to always hit their targets, either way it is a War Crime typical of the daily harassment of Palestinians being used to provoke a reaction so that Israel can react disproportionately further exacerbating the situation. The fact that it happens so regularly is ample evidence that this behaviour is a policy decision by the Israelis to commit these crimes.
Let me give you another story. On 25 June 2006 Hamas militants killed two IDF soldiers and captured Gilad Shalit. The militants entered Israel through a underground tunnel. Suppose the IDF killed the militants when they started to dig the tunnel in Gaza what would the explanation be? Farmers killed while cultivating land? The Palestinian population in Gaza is taken hostage by Hamas and other terrorist groups. The IDF's task is to defend Israel like any other Armed forces defends their country. Do not forget that Hamas wants to destroy Israel and you think it is because they stole the land of the Palestinians. Well, you are wrong. It's because non-muslims have a state on muslim land, it's a religious war but you are to blind to see that. And the Palestinian population is just a means to reach their goal. Have you ever used Google maps to have a look at the "destruction" of Gaza???

Quote:
Yes, yes, we all know that these groups are all rabidly anti Israel.(sarcasm) The amount of explosives shot at Israel is ludicrously miniscule when the reverse is taken into account. Not to mention the constant provocation by the IDF as seen in the videos above.
Why shooting rockets at Israel when you know that a retaliation follows and the embargo stays?
ludicrously miniscule? Between 2001 and January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched, leading to 28 deaths and several hundred injuries, as well as widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life. In total 1,092 Israelis have been killed since September 29, 2000 and 6,537 Palestinians. Any wise man would have stopped the rocket attacks exept the Palestinian leadership. They have no respect for their own population.

Quote:
What,... fell on your @rse again making stupid assumptions? If you wanted to know what I am you only had to ask, I'm not ashamed of my views. I am a proud and admitted anti Zionist, and you are an idiot who supports the worlds most virulent and dangerous regime that is the root cause of virtually all of the Islamic terrorism in the world today.
Yes you are a anti Zionist and no I am not an idiot.
December 2nd, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Tell me how many people have been killed either directly, or in defence of their lunatic policies, by either of these two countries in the last ten years?
Iran:In September 2010, a Twitter user called "Sarbaz01" published on Peyke-Iran website a list of 150 people killed by the Islamic regime from June 2009 to June 2010 or look at the article in the Guardian.

North Korea : The state-controlled economy of North Korea, including the food sector, has suffered from severe mismanagement in recent decades. North Korea also experienced severe floods in the mid-1990s, exacerbated by poor land management. A serious famine followed, resulting in the death of around 2,000,000 people.

They are killing their own people!

Quote:
Also it is no longer a question of "if and when Israel gets nukes", they already have them. In view of their past behaviour and total lack of morality and responsibility, this further reinforces my argument. With that in mind, how can we reasonably expect their neighbouring enemies to not want them at any cost. This is merely another example of Israel dragging the world further towards instability and possible nuclear war.
It is not proven that Israel has nukes but we can almost be sure (just as sure that Iran is working on it) that they have nukes since 1967. That's 44 years without using them.

Quote:
The use of whatever force is necessary, is not terrorism when defending your own property as the Palestinians have been. Evidence of this principle is seen in such civil laws a those which allow any person to use "such force as is necessary" to protect their lives and property. Below is more of the quote from a booklet published by Jews for Justice in Palestine so we can see what they think of it. This is why i never blame the "Jews" but the Zionist element responsible for their policies. This is not terrorism in any way shape or form.
"The use of whatever force is necessary, is not terrorism when defending your own property" : does that apply to everyone or only the Palestinians?

Quote:
Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).
Something's wrong with that documentary. The JNF currently owns 13% of land in Israel, while 79.5% is owned by the government (this land is leased on a non-discriminatory basis), and the rest, around 6.5%, is evenly divided between private Arab and Jewish owners.
The Israel Land Administration, which administers 93% of the land in Israel (including the land owned by the Jewish National Fund), refuses to lease land to non-Jewish foreign nationals. This means that I, as a Belgian citizen, cannot lease land in Israel while you can.

According to Ishmael Khaldi, an Arab citizen of Israel and the nation's first high ranking Muslim in the Israeli foreign service : I am a proud Israeli – along with many other non-Jewish Israelis such as Druze, Bahai, Bedouin, Christians and Muslims, who live in one of the most culturally diversified societies and the only true democracy in the Middle East. Like America, Israeli society is far from perfect, but let us deal honestly. By any yardstick you choose – educational opportunity, economic development, women and gay's rights, freedom of speech and assembly, legislative representation – Israel's minorities fare far better than any other country in the Middle East (LOST IN THE BLUR OF SLOGANS, Ishmael Khaldi, San Francisco Chronicle, March 2009)
--
December 2nd, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Iran:In September 2010, a Twitter user called "Sarbaz01" published on Peyke-Iran website a list of 150 people killed by the Islamic regime from June 2009 to June 2010 or look at the article in the Guardian.

North Korea : The state-controlled economy of North Korea, including the food sector, has suffered from severe mismanagement in recent decades. North Korea also experienced severe floods in the mid-1990s, exacerbated by poor land management. A serious famine followed, resulting in the death of around 2,000,000 people.

They are killing their own people!
How many of them were killed as a direct result of their military's actions against the civil population? There were 6.537 Palestinians killed by the IDF since 2000, of which only 251 were the objects of targeted killings. Source: Jews For justice In Palestine. http://www.ifamericaknew.org/stats/deaths.html And we won't even mention the 3000 US civilians killed in 9/11, nor the 5000+ more fighting wars all bought about by the US support of this rogue state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
It is not proven that Israel has nukes but we can almost be sure (just as sure that Iran is working on it) that they have nukes since 1967. That's 44 years without using them.
Don't be an idiot all of your life, they Jailed Mordechai Vanunu for disclosing state secrets about their nuclear industry. This deliberate, and oh so typical of pro zionists, "lack of honesty" is no more than we could expect of you. Any court in the world would accept that as proof positive of Israel having Nuclear weapons. Plus of course we have other admissions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In the summer of 1976, Vanunu applied for a job Negev Nuclear Research Center, an Israeli facility used to develop and manufacture nuclear weapons
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
"The use of whatever force is necessary, is not terrorism when defending your own property" : does that apply to everyone or only the Palestinians?
Everyone. This is what permits the Palestinians to resist the Israelis using such force as is necessary, as the land is not theirs and has not been for at least 1200 years. Source: http://www.ifamericaknew.org/stats/deaths.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Something's wrong with that documentary. The JNF currently owns 13% of land in Israel, while 79.5% is owned by the government (this land is leased on a non-discriminatory basis), and the rest, around 6.5%, is evenly divided between private Arab and Jewish owners.
The Israel Land Administration, which administers 93% of the land in Israel (including the land owned by the Jewish National Fund), refuses to lease land to non-Jewish foreign nationals. This means that I, as a Belgian citizen, cannot lease land in Israel while you can.

According to Ishmael Khaldi, an Arab citizen of Israel and the nation's first high ranking Muslim in the Israeli foreign service : I am a proud Israeli – along with many other non-Jewish Israelis such as Druze, Bahai, Bedouin, Christians and Muslims, who live in one of the most culturally diversified societies and the only true democracy in the Middle East. Like America, Israeli society is far from perfect, but let us deal honestly. By any yardstick you choose – educational opportunity, economic development, women and gay's rights, freedom of speech and assembly, legislative representation – Israel's minorities fare far better than any other country in the Middle East (LOST IN THE BLUR OF SLOGANS, Ishmael Khaldi, San Francisco Chronicle, March 2009)
Of course, we know everything that shows the truth is "wrong " according to the Zionist view. I'm sure that The Jews For Justice in Palestine would have been corrected by more knowledgeable Zionists than yourself, had it been wrong.

All of the above not withstanding, the fact remains, that Israel and it's policies is largely despised,.. hence the title of this thread. (I guess you never noticed,.. but no one has tried to deny the fact, just that some have tried unsuccessfully to deny the reasons why it is so.)
December 2nd, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
They are stable at this very moment. I am not seeing how you think their government is unstable, I didn't see mass forced regime changes in Israel. I don't see many civil wars in Israel, and I certainly at this moment don't see Israel using nukes without being dire need for it.
I just don't know where to start with these stupid statements. In one post you agree that Israel is based on terror, and commit terrorist acts on a daily basis, and in another you state that they are a stable country. You totally ignore the fact that they are the one country with more UN resolutions raised against them than all other countries in the world combined. On the majority of the very few occasions where the US has gently chided them, they have effectively told you to "P!ss off and mind your own business" Your lack of effective reasoning is staggering to say the least.

You need to read Tony Judt's*report "The country that wouldn't grow Up", but I know that you wouldn't do that, as it would be too confronting and might make you think a little bit.http://www.niej.org.br/en/arquivos/t...-up-tony-judt/
Quote:
*A Jew descended from Lithuanian rabbis, Judt was sent by his parents to a summer camp in Israel when he was a teenager and became so devoted to the Jewish homeland that he spoke at a Zionist conference in Paris and served as a translator and driver for the Israel Defense Forces during and after the 1967 Six-Day War.
But he soured on his adopted country, later concluding "that most Israelis were not transplanted latter-day agrarian socialists but young, prejudiced urban Jews who differed from their European or American counterparts chiefly in their macho, swaggering self-confidence, and access to armed weapons," he wrote in 2010.
In a 1983 article for The New York Review of Books, Judt labeled Israel a "belligerently intolerant, faith-driven ethno state."
While most liberals supported a two-state solution, separate lands for the Jews and the Palestinians, Judt called for the two sides to be joined under a single government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
I still don't see how slitting children's throats and blowing up buses is necessary or acceptable to resist occupation. Also, terrorism is not defined for its reason, but its action. It is terrorism no matter why they are doing it. For you to keep ignoring this, I do not understand. I am pretty sure you are in the minority with that.
I know that you don't understand, you don't have to tell me. I do it because it is a fact, and you don't understand, because you don't have a foreign nation terrorising you and your family, pushing you out of your home and country. In Australia we have a fitting description for people with your attitude. "Fcuk you Jack, I'm alright". In other words you don't care what happens to others, so long as it does not affect your personal freedoms. No consideration for the 5000 odd US service persons who have died in wars bought about by the US support of Israel's illegal acts.

You blubber on about kids having their throats cut (I think that there were four of them) but totally ignore simple details like the 6000 odd innocent Palestinian women and children killed by Israel since 2000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
If USA did that, people would try to say we are igniting a conflict. Arming both sides and letting the duke it out? You know how many ignorant Europeans like to say that about USA during WW2 in which USA, sold weapons to the warring countries?
So you feel that supplying economic and almost unlimited military aid to an oppressive regime for 60 years is not igniting a conflict? If you are not igniting it you are certainly responsible for where it is at the moment and also maintaining it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
....I won't bother arguing during Christmas break. I am just trying to get Seno to understand certain things. It is great he has an opinion and want to oppose what he thinks is not right, but he does it in the most biased of ways. That is what I am continuing on in vain for.
Stop and think what you just said. "he does it in the most biased of ways" How exactly do you present facts supporting your argument in an unbiased way? They are the facts, of course they are biased they only support one side of the argument. It's your job to try and support the opposing argument, not mine. I am not going to distort the truth just to make it more palatable for you. Yes, it's hard, but that is what happens when you support a regime who is determied to steal the land of another people, and use terrorist acts to keep it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
We know Israeli was founded on terrorism (technically, so was USA), do we or Israel habor terrorists at this moment? No, so it is irrelevant.
No it's not. Israel has been committing terrorist act on a daily basis for 60+ years, they don't harbour terrorists, they are the terrorists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
What we need to do is focus on what is happening now, because doing a reverse is not the best idea, especially since Israel is a soveriegn nation and is recognized as one. You can't tell a soveriegn nation to begone because they "stole" land and not look at your own country simply because "there are laws that was put in place afterwards". I have already proved that a person can and may (depending on the situation) be punished under law if a law was created after his crime.
Please read all of the thread. It has already ben shown that being a sovereign nation has no bearing on legality or illegality of Israel's actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
His goal is the destruction of Israel,
Don't tell lies they are too easy to disprove. No where on this site or anywhere else have I ever promoted the destruction of Israel, I merely say that if the Zionists want a country of their own (which they have no right to do) they can't take land belonging to others to do it. The whole idea is no more than a religious pipe dream.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
United States, while it backs Israel, does not ALWAYS take Israel's side. This situation is too complicated for a simple answer.
Never, has the US ever offered more than a token resistance to Israel's crimes.

If Israel were Muslim, they would have been invaded by the US years ago.
December 3rd, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seehund
It will be a very long answer.
Forgive me that I use so much space - but I can´t make it much shorter.
Wow! Please give me a few weeks to give some answers

I have a question though. I don't think that you left out words or sentences so that the quotes become anti, did you? I think your quotes are from other writings, right?

In the 20th century many new countries were formed , list here, only two of them involved larger muslim and non-muslim populations. These two countries still have problems with groups attacking them.
Does that not ring a bell?
December 3rd, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seehund
It will be a very long answer.
Forgive me that I use so much space - but I can´t make it much shorter.
OK part 1

Quote:
We meet the transfer idea with Theodor Herzl, who in his diary on 12 June 1895 wrote: "We must try to send the poor population across the frontier ... Both the process of expropriating the land and move the poor must be carried out discreetly and cautiously.” Later on it developed into a proper transfer policy.
Is that quote from Qumsiyeh?
This is the more complete version of Herzl’s diary entrie (the omissions from the statement of Qumsiyeh are in bold) :
info : Herzl's diary entry makes no mention of either Arabs or Palestine.

When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly. Let the owners of immovable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back.

It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire old world a wonderful example. ...

Estate owners who are attached to their soil ... will be offered a complete transplantation–to any place they wish, like our own people. ...If this offer is not accepted either, no harm will be done. ... we shall simply leave them there ....

Quote:
In Nahman Syrkin's pamphlet from 1898, entitled "Die jüdische Frage und der sozialistische Juden Staat".. He wrote that Palestine is "sparsely populated, Jews today represent 10% and the land must be cleared for the Jews."
I found the pamphlet from 1898 but not the text you quote. Can you give me the link please?

Quote:
Similarly, from early 1900-century, numerous examples that the transfer was one of contemporary significant issues. Arthur Ruppin, another prominent Zionist Socialist, made in a memorandum to the Zionist Organization Executive, May 1911, a concrete proposal which consisted in "a limited population transfer" of Arab peasants to the Syrian districts of Aleppo and Homs.
again something was left out.
In a memorandum to the Zionist Executive, Arthur Ruppin, the director of Zionist settlement in Palestine , proposed a limited population transfer by purchasing land near Aleppo and Homs in Syria to resettle dispossessed Arabs.

Nothing is wrong with purchasing land, and you can only purchase land when someone else is willing to sell it.

Quote:
One of the strongest proponents of "The Transfer Solution" was, however, the British Jewish writer Israel Zangwill. During a meeting with British Zionists in 1905 he said that "either we must be prepared by the sword to drive out the Arab tribes, who owns the land, just as our ancestors did it or contend with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Muslims through centuries been accustomed to despise us. "
Again I can't find the text. But the quote begins with "either" so something else must have been left out. Zangwill left the Zionist movement after the Seventh Zionist Congress in 1905 where it was decided to reject the Uganda Program, which he advocated. He then formed a new movement , the Jewish Territorial Organization. This organization investigated sites for the establishment of a Jewish nation in Canada, Argentina, Australia, and Africa. It was dissolved in 1925. So Palestine was not targeted as "The Transfer Solution" according to Zangwill.

Quote:
In 1920 he published the book: The Voice of Jerusalem, in which he wrote: "We can not allow the Arabs to block such a valuable piece of historical reconstruction (restoring Israel) ... Therefore, we most kindly persuade them to emigrate. After all, they have all Arabia with its millions of square miles ... There are no particular reason for the Arabs to cling to these few kilometers. Let them "pack their tents together" and "move" as they have for habit: let them exemplify it now. "
You'll find the book "The Voice of Jerusalem" here :
I can't find that quote, it's not in that book. And why should an Englishman in 1920 use the word "kilometers" instead of "miles"?

part 2 to be followed
December 3rd, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
How many of them were killed as a direct result of their military's actions against the civil population? There were 6.537 Palestinians killed by the IDF since 2000, of which only 251 were the objects of targeted killings. Source: Jews For justice In Palestine. http://www.ifamericaknew.org/stats/deaths.html And we won't even mention the 3000 US civilians killed in 9/11, nor the 5000+ more fighting wars all bought about by the US support of this rogue state.
Your link sucks, it's pure anti-Israel. Look here, and take a close look at "War of the Camps"

And linking 9/11 to Israel is absurd.

Quote:
Don't be an idiot all of your life, they Jailed Mordechai Vanunu for disclosing state secrets about their nuclear industry. This deliberate, and oh so typical of pro zionists, "lack of honesty" is no more than we could expect of you. Any court in the world would accept that as proof positive of Israel having Nuclear weapons. Plus of course we have other admissions.
You must have special spectacles because you always read things that are not there. Please read what I wrote! And about Mordechai Vanunu , did you know that in July 2004 he claimed in the London-based Al-Hayat newspaper that the State of Israel was complicit in the assassination of John F. Kennedy? Maybe you can ad this to your list of "because of Israel".

Quote:
Everyone. This is what permits the Palestinians to resist the Israelis using such force as is necessary, as the land is not theirs and has not been for at least 1200 years. Source: http://www.ifamericaknew.org/stats/deaths.html
"EVERYONE" : at last your first admission. So Israel is allowed to use whatever force is necessary to defend their own property.


Quote:
Of course, we know everything that shows the truth is "wrong " according to the Zionist view. I'm sure that The Jews For Justice in Palestine would have been corrected by more knowledgeable Zionists than yourself, had it been wrong.
Wishful thinking.

Quote:
All of the above not withstanding, the fact remains, that Israel and it's policies is largely despised,.. hence the title of this thread. (I guess you never noticed,.. but no one has tried to deny the fact, just that some have tried unsuccessfully to deny the reasons why it is so.)
Yes there are people who hate Israel and there are people who love it. There are people who hate Palestinians and there are people who love Palestinians. And I could go on and on and ....
December 3rd, 2011  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Your link sucks, it's pure anti-Israel. Look here, and take a close look at "War of the Camps"

And linking 9/11 to Israel is absurd.
It's a great little link. eh? and written by Jews no less. Yes, there atre many jews who will not be fooled by this dream of a state based on terror.
Of course it's anti Israel, that is the whole point, anti israel and pro- Jewish. If it were not for the US support of Israel, there never would have been any Al Quaeda, no Hamas, no Global Islamic terrorism. Your problem is that you just don't want to admit the truth.

What "Real" Jews Think


Quote:
You must have special spectacles because you always read things that are not there. Please read what I wrote! And about Mordechai Vanunu , did you know that in July 2004 he claimed in the London-based Al-Hayat newspaper that the State of Israel was complicit in the assassination of John F. Kennedy? Maybe you can ad this to your list of "because of Israel".
Where exactly did I say that,... sorry FAIL! I notice that you did completely ignore what I did say though.

Quote:
"EVERYONE" : at last your first admission. So Israel is allowed to use whatever force is necessary to defend their own property.
"BECAUSE" it's not their property, they are only the occupiers.

Quote:
Wishful thinking.
And you know it's the truth. They are in the business of correcting the lies, not disseminating them as Israel is.

Quote:
Yes there are people who hate Israel and there are people who love it. There are people who hate Palestinians and there are people who love Palestinians. And I could go on and on and ....
But you don't because you know I am right.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~

Another little Zionist gem, another admission of criminal intent.
“The Arabs will have to go, but one needs an opportune moment for making it happen, such as war” (Ben Gurion)
December 3rd, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
...You totally ignore the fact that they are the one country with more UN resolutions raised against them than all other countries in the world combined....
from 25 jan 1946 to 29 nov 2011 there have been 2021 UN resorlutions of which 224 are against Israel. You messed up again.

Here you can find all the UN resolutions.
BTW the link is from the UN itself.
 


Similar Topics
Israel rightfully own the West Bank .
Israel strikes Beirut suburb, tightens blockade
A conversation with Iranian dissident (MUST READ)
Palestinians
American racism