So why do people hate Israel?

[VDKMS]

Are you sure about that? If so, please explain the Bahr El-Baqar massacre committed by the IAF during 1970. Israelis claim that they thought the school was a military installment. In reality, yes it was a primary school, the school was completely destroyed with 46 children dead and about 60 wounded. Not a war crime? That's one out of many crimes done by them.

That's not a war crime, that's an accident.

This is a war crime : Kfar Etzion massacre, May 13, 1948

"When the remaining defenders surrendered, they assembled near the school where they were photographed waving white flags with their hands in the air. The Arabs opened fire and killed many on the spot. Those who remained alive were stabbed to death. Hand grenades were thrown into a cellar, killing a group of 50 who were hiding there. The building was blown up. Only four members of Kfar Etzion survived. They were taken prisoner and transferred to Transjordan. Immediately following the surrender on May 13, the kibbutz was looted and burned."​

 

[Del Boy]

VDKMS - Were the Irgun made up of British trained underground troops in Europe WW11? Determined not to allow such a situation to occur again.

 

[lolwhassup]

Are you sure about that? If so, please explain the Bahr El-Baqar massacre committed by the IAF during 1970. Israelis claim that they thought the school was a military installment. In reality, yes it was a primary school, the school was completely destroyed with 46 children dead and about 60 wounded. Not a war crime? That's one out of many crimes done by them.

Oh but when Americans do similar things, It's a war crime, When the Russians do it, It's a war crime, hell when NATO does it, it's a war crime. What makes it not a war crime when Israel does it? :bang:

 

[MontyB]

Oh but when Americans do similar things, It's a war crime, When the Russians do it, It's a war crime, hell when NATO does it, it's a war crime. What makes it not a war crime when Israel does it? :bang:

Actually there is a very fine line between "war crimes" and "accidents", if they genuinely thought they were bombing a military installation then it isn't a war crime.

Just as I am not sure throwing hand grenades into a cellar killing people hiding in there is a crime either as troops are allowed to keep themselves safe as well, had the cellar dwellers surrendered that would have been a different story but as they were hiding you can assume they hadn't.

 

[Del Boy]

Oh but when Americans do similar things, It's a war crime, When the Russians do it, It's a war crime, hell when NATO does it, it's a war crime. What makes it not a war crime when Israel does it? :bang:

And when Arabs do it??

As for the question you pose - VDKMS has answered it in detail already on this thread. Try reading it.

 

[ScarabVenom]

That's not a war crime, that's an accident.

This is a war crime : Kfar Etzion massacre, May 13, 1948

"When the remaining defenders surrendered, they assembled near the school where they were photographed waving white flags with their hands in the air. The Arabs opened fire and killed many on the spot. Those who remained alive were stabbed to death. Hand grenades were thrown into a cellar, killing a group of 50 who were hiding there. The building was blown up. Only four members of Kfar Etzion survived. They were taken prisoner and transferred to Transjordan. Immediately following the surrender on May 13, the kibbutz was looted and burned."​

So, they really thought it's a military installment? Worst case scenario, even if it's an accident, doesn't mean that we should just forgive and forget, right? Even when you not purposely kill someone, you get a sentence.

The warcrime you mentioned was done by the Jordan army. I guess you talk with the Jordanians about this one...

 

[ScarabVenom]

Oh but when Americans do similar things, It's a war crime, When the Russians do it, It's a war crime, hell when NATO does it, it's a war crime. What makes it not a war crime when Israel does it? :bang:

I called it a warcrime. I think you didn't mean to direct your post to me?

 

[ScarabVenom]

Actually there is a very fine line between "war crimes" and "accidents", if they genuinely thought they were bombing a military installation then it isn't a war crime.

Well...how would we know that they really thought it was a military installation? And still, even if it's an accident it doesn't have to be acceptable. Still whoever is responsible had to be represented to justice.

 

[ScarabVenom]

That's not a war crime, that's an accident.

This is a war crime : Kfar Etzion massacre, May 13, 1948

"When the remaining defenders surrendered, they assembled near the school where they were photographed waving white flags with their hands in the air. The Arabs opened fire and killed many on the spot. Those who remained alive were stabbed to death. Hand grenades were thrown into a cellar, killing a group of 50 who were hiding there. The building was blown up. Only four members of Kfar Etzion survived. They were taken prisoner and transferred to Transjordan. Immediately following the surrender on May 13, the kibbutz was looted and burned."​

Accident, too?

Historian Gabby Bron wrote in the Yediot Ahronot in Israel that he witnessed Israeli troops executing Egyptian prisoners on the morning of June 8, 1967, in the Sinai town of El Arish. Bron reported that he saw about 150 Egyptian POWs being held at the El Arish airport where they were sitting on the ground, densely crowded together with their hands held on the back of their necks. Every few minutes, Bron writes, Israeli soldiers would escort an Egyptian POW from the group to a hearing conducted by two men in Israeli army uniforms. Then the man would be taken away, given a spade, and forced to dig his own grave. "I watched as (one) man dug a hole for about 15 minutes,?Bron wrote. afterwards, the (Israeli military) policeman told him to throw the shovel away, and then one of them leveled an Uzi at him and shot two short bursts, each of three or four bullets.? Bron says he witnessed about ten such executions, until the grave was filled. Then an Israeli Colonel threatened him with a revolver, forcing him to leave the area.

 

[MontyB]

Well...how would we know that they really thought it was a military installation? And still, even if it's an accident it doesn't have to be acceptable. Still whoever is responsible had to be represented to justice.

There is a famous case of the Luftwaffe bombing a school in 1943 and how reprehensible the action was but a few years ago one of the survivors wrote a book because he had discovered that until a few months earlier the building had been used by the war department and had only recently been returned to use as a school.

Just as there are numerous reports of allied troops clearing cellars in towns they are capturing with grenades only to find that some were inhabited by civilians, I imagine that these instances are simply put down as "fortunes of war" incidents.


Some times not everything is as clear cut as reports indicate.

 

[ScarabVenom]

There is a famous case of the Luftwaffe bombing a school in 1943 and how reprehensible the action was but a few years ago one of the survivors wrote a book because he had discovered that until a few months earlier the building had been used by the war department and had only recently been returned to use as a school.

Just as there are numerous reports of allied troops clearing cellars in towns they are capturing with grenades only to find that some were inhabited by civilians, I imagine that these instances are simply put down as "fortunes of war" incidents.


Some times not everything is as clear cut as reports indicate.

Hmm...but I find it less likely for Egypt to use a school as a military installment considering that the school is in Sharqiya which is kinda away from the battlefield and closer to Cairo.

Secondly, no matter what the reason or excuse is, if the pilot sees children or civilians in a building he/she is going to bomb, he/she should stop. Civilians are killed in war by accident and that's true. But, in also in many cases civilians could be saved yet, the offender chooses to kill them. And that act should be condemned.

And in this case, Egypt accused the IDF of bombing the school, IDF admits claiming that they thought it was a military installment. But actually it wasn't and thus they should be blamed. If it wasn't for the IDF, I'd blame their intelligence that provided wrong information that lead to the bombing of a primary school that had children inside it.

 

[VDKMS]

Accident, too?

Historian Gabby Bron wrote in the Yediot Ahronot in Israel that he witnessed Israeli troops executing Egyptian prisoners on the morning of June 8, 1967, in the Sinai town of El Arish. Bron reported that he saw about 150 Egyptian POWs being held at the El Arish airport where they were sitting on the ground, densely crowded together with their hands held on the back of their necks. Every few minutes, Bron writes, Israeli soldiers would escort an Egyptian POW from the group to a hearing conducted by two men in Israeli army uniforms. Then the man would be taken away, given a spade, and forced to dig his own grave. "I watched as (one) man dug a hole for about 15 minutes,?Bron wrote. afterwards, the (Israeli military) policeman told him to throw the shovel away, and then one of them leveled an Uzi at him and shot two short bursts, each of three or four bullets.? Bron says he witnessed about ten such executions, until the grave was filled. Then an Israeli Colonel threatened him with a revolver, forcing him to leave the area.

That doesn't make sense. Why should the Israeli Colonel threatened him with a revolver, forcing him to leave the area after the killing?

The truth is that this massacre charge was first reported – and then thoroughly debunked – more than 10 years ago.

Consider, first, the statement of Gabi Bron, who today covers the Knesset for Yediot Aharonot, Israel's largest daily. In the book, Bamford says Bron witnessed a massacre of 150 Egyptian prisoners at El Arish, citing a press clipping in which Bron is quoted as follows: "The Egyptian prisoners of war were ordered to dig pits and then army police shot them to death." But the Bron statement refers not to a mass killing of Egyptians but to an isolated incident: the execution of five Palestinian guerrillas who had posed as Egyptian soldiers after killing Israelis. Bamford would have learned this if, instead of relying on a clip, he had actually spoken to Bron, who is easily reachable. "The one hundred and fifty POWs were not shot, and there were no mass murders," Bron told me when I called. "In fact, we helped prisoners, gave them water, and in most cases just sent them in the direction of the [Suez] Canal."​

from "Unfriendly Fire"

 

[MontyB]

That doesn't make sense. Why should the Israeli Colonel threatened him with a revolver, forcing him to leave the area after the killing?

The truth is that this massacre charge was first reported – and then thoroughly debunked – more than 10 years ago.

Debunked you say, then explain this...

http://www.nytimes.com/keyword/cairoGraves and Questions in the Sinai





Published: September 22, 1995



Israel and Egypt must not try to finesse the discovery of two mass graves in the Sinai. Cairo says they contain the remains of Egyptian prisoners of war and unarmed civilians executed by Israel during the 1967 war. Whatever happened in the desert nearly 30 years ago, even if no longer prosecutable under Israeli law, should be investigated by Israel and a public accounting should be made.
Allegations of unprovoked killings first appeared last month when a retired Israeli General, Arieh Biroh, admitted he had killed Egyptian prisoners in the 1956 conflict with Egypt. Then the current Israeli Housing Minister, Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, was accused of participating in the execution of civilians and prisoners of war in 1967. Mr. Ben-Eliezer denied the charge and the matter was not pursued by the Government. Cairo, too, initially shrank from looking into the allegations, fearing it might offend both Israel and the United States.
Now, after discovery of the mass graves, Egypt's President, Hosni Mubarak, has asked Israel to investigate and punish those responsible. Some political parties in Egypt have demanded suspension of diplomatic ties with Israel. The Egyptian Ambassador to Tel Aviv, Mohammed Bassiouni, has been criticized for failing to pursue the issue.

Mr. Bassiouni, who eventually demanded an explanation from Israel, has wisely said the incident would not affect the peace treaty between the two countries. But Israel should not take Mr. Bassiouni's restraint as a signal it can let the matter drop. An Israeli offer of compensation to the families of the victims is laudable, but not sufficient. Both Egyptians and Israelis deserve a full explanation.
In many countries where military misconduct has occurred, it has become common practice to appoint commissions to discover the truth of such incidents. Only a full inquiry and public airing of the facts can heal old wounds like these. In this case, witnesses are prepared to offer their accounts of what happened and bodies can be recovered from the graves for examination by forensic experts.
Israel should not delay. Its relationship with Cairo, and its own sense of honor, are too valuable to squander, whether or not the statute of limitations has expired.
Describing the allegations as a "Pandora's Box," Mr. Ben-Eliezer said, "The less we talk about this, the better." He could not be more wrong.

I find it hard to believe that finding mass graves, offers of compensation and witnesses all exist for something that never happened.

 

[senojekips]

Debunked you say, then explain this...



I find it hard to believe that finding mass graves, offers of compensation and witnesses all exist for something that never happened.

What he actually meant was, that it was debunked by Israeli standards.

Shut eyes tightly. Jam fingers in ears and yell, "Nyah yah, nyah yah" at the top of your voice until people put you on "Ignore"

 

[ScarabVenom]

That doesn't make sense. Why should the Israeli Colonel threatened him with a revolver, forcing him to leave the area after the killing?

The truth is that this massacre charge was first reported – and then thoroughly debunked – more than 10 years ago.

Consider, first, the statement of Gabi Bron, who today covers the Knesset for Yediot Aharonot, Israel's largest daily. In the book, Bamford says Bron witnessed a massacre of 150 Egyptian prisoners at El Arish, citing a press clipping in which Bron is quoted as follows: "The Egyptian prisoners of war were ordered to dig pits and then army police shot them to death." But the Bron statement refers not to a mass killing of Egyptians but to an isolated incident: the execution of five Palestinian guerrillas who had posed as Egyptian soldiers after killing Israelis. Bamford would have learned this if, instead of relying on a clip, he had actually spoken to Bron, who is easily reachable. "The one hundred and fifty POWs were not shot, and there were no mass murders," Bron told me when I called. "In fact, we helped prisoners, gave them water, and in most cases just sent them in the direction of the [Suez] Canal."​

from "Unfriendly Fire"

I knew you would come up with some sort of defense. They were not shot? And there were no mass murders? Oh, wow! Then I guess this photo is fake too, eh?

 

[senojekips]

Israeli reporter admits suppressing images of ‘piles of bodies of civilians’ when Israel went ‘crazy’ in Gaza

by Philip Weiss on January 20, 2013

A staggering, doom-laden interview published by Haaretz with an Israeli television journalist suggests that the full truth of what happened in Gaza 4 years ago was suppressed not only when the United States and its author stomped the Goldstone Report-- which alleged deliberate targeting of civilians-- but suppressed by Israelis too. Shlomi Eldar was Gaza correspondent for Channel 10 news. Here is what he saw and could not live with but put in "an envelope" and has never published, awaiting a commission of inquiry that never has come:

Read more:... http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/reporter-suppressing-civilians.html

 

[BritinBritain]

U.N. rights inquiry says Israel must remove settlers

GENEVA (Reuters) - U.N. human rights investigators called on Israel on Thursday to halt settlement expansion and withdraw all half a million Jewish settlers from the occupied West Bank, saying that its practices could be subject to prosecution as possible war crimes.

A three-member U.N. panel said private companies should stop working in the settlements if their work adversely affected the human rights of Palestinians, and urged member states to ensure companies respected human rights.

"Israel must cease settlement activities and provide adequate, prompt and effective remedy to the victims of violations of human rights," Christine Chanet, a French judge who led the U.N. inquiry, told a news conference.

The settlements contravened the Fourth Geneva Convention forbidding the transfer of civilian populations into occupied territory and could amount to war crimes that fall under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court (ICC), the United Nations report said. "To transfer its own population into an occupied territory is prohibited because it is an obstacle to the exercise of the right to self-determination," Chanet said.

In December, the Palestinians accused Israel in a letter to the United Nations of planning to commit what it said were further war crimes by expanding Jewish settlements after the Palestinians won de facto U.N. recognition of statehood, and said Israel must be held accountable.

Israel has not cooperated with the probe set up by the Human Rights Council last March to examine the impact of settlements in the territory, including East Jerusalem. Israel says the forum has an inherent bias against it and defends its settlement policy by citing historical and Biblical links to the West Bank.

Israel's foreign ministry swiftly rejected the report as "counterproductive and unfortunate". The Palestine Liberation Organisation welcomed its "principled and candid" findings.

"The only way to resolve all pending issues between Israel and the Palestinians, including the settlements issue, is through direct negotiations without pre-conditions. Counterproductive measures - such as the report before us, will only hamper efforts to find a sustainable solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict," Israel's Yigal Palmor said.

"The Human Rights Council has sadly distinguished itself by its systematically one-sided and biased approach towards Israel. This latest report is yet another unfortunate reminder of that."

But Hanan Ashrawi, a top PLO official told Reuters: "This is incredible. We are extremely heartened by this principled and candid assessment of Israeli violations...This report clearly states the Israel is not just violating the 4th Geneva Convention, but places Israel in liability to the Rome Statute under the jurisdiction of the ICC."

The independent U.N. investigators interviewed more than 50 people who came to Jordan in November to testify about confiscated land, damage to their livelihoods including olive trees, and violence by Jewish settlers, according to the report.
"The mission believes that the motivation behind this violence and the intimidation against the Palestinians as well as their properties is to drive the local populations away from their lands and allow the settlements to expand," it said.

"CREEPING ANNEXATION"
About 250 settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, have been established since 1967 and they hold an estimated 520,000 settlers, according to the U.N. report. The settlements impede Palestinian access to water and farm lands.

The settlements were "leading to a creeping annexation that prevents the establishment of a contiguous and viable Palestinian state and undermines the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination," it said.
Chanet said: "To maintain such a system of segregation you need strict police and army control. It means a lot of checkpoints, violation of freedom of movement, no access to natural resources, demolition of houses and sometimes even destroying the trees."

After the General Assembly upgraded the Palestinians status at the world body, Israel said it would build 3,000 more settler homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem - areas Palestinians wanted for a future state, along with the Gaza Strip.

The U.N. human rights inquiry said that the International Criminal Court had jurisdiction over the deportation or transfer by the occupying power of its own population into the territory.

Chanet, asked whether the violations constituted war crimes that could be tried at the Hague-based court, said: "These offences are falling into the provision of article 8 of the ICC statutes. Article 8 of the ICC statute is in the chapter of war crimes, that is the answer."

(Reporting by Stephanie Nebehay in Geneva; additional reporting by Ori Lewis and Noah Browning in Jerusalem; Editing by Jon Boyle)

 

[ethan508]

People shouldnt hate isreal. They did nothing.

 

[BritinBritain]

People shouldnt hate isreal. They did nothing.

Really? I strongly suggest that you do a bit of research.

 

[senojekips]

People shouldnt hate isreal. They did nothing.

They stole and occupied the land belonging to another people.

The formation of Israel as a country has never been ratified, (Resolution 181) was only ever a recommendation. Even if the UN had mistakenly ratified this recommendation, it would have been illegal under International Law which states very clearly that:

"2. Occupation Must Never Lead To Sovereignty over Occupied or Conquered Lands of the Enemy People or Nation."
Source: http://www.israellawresourcecenter.org/

The Zionists drove out the last legally mandated administation (The British) by terrorism, and once they were gone, they flooded into Palestine from Europe and drove the native population into the neighbouring countries where most of them remain to this day in direct contravention of a dozen different International laws and conventions.

2. FORBIDDING CIVILIANS THE RIGHT TO RETURN TO THEIR HOMES FOLLOWING THE END OF ARMED CONFLICT: Israeli government enacts laws, and employs its military to keep aproximately 750,000 Palestinian Arab civilians from returning to their homes following the end of fighting both in 1948 and in the occupied territories in 1967. Israel then violates UN resolutions ordering them to respect Palestinian's right to return to their homes (laws & principles violated, international response).