So why do people hate Israel?

[ScarabVenom]

Correct, and the Israelis have always known that, it's just that they chose to ignore the obvious in the hope that it would go away, and it hasn't, it's just getting worse with much of the world now held to ransom with global terror as the Palestinians only effective weapon.

The land as a new Palestinian state, their homes, or sites where they were, and control of that land.

Of course, this is the case in all countries, they get to decide who stays. Your country does it, my country does it and the new Palestinian state should also have the right to control who lives in their country. It's not their fault that most of the Israelis have treated them like animals in their own land and soured the possibility of any smooth transition.

All of your posts seem to indicate that you do, as you seem very reluctant to see justice done in an honest attempt to resolve the issues here.

Any new Palestinian state would go bankrupt just with the expense of running trials and building prisons to accommodate the criminals, plus many of them are now long dead and there's no hope of justice being done to them.


The Israelis always planned to steal the land and drive out the legitimate owners, as has been shown here many times, organisations like Hamas, Black September, and Al Quaeda only arose and were accepted by the people as a result of the fact that they were the only groups willing to fight for what the Palestinian people actually wanted.

Had the Israelis even treated the Palestinians with some degree of respect and made the slightest effort to understand their point of view, none of these organisations would have ever seen the light of day. But instead they decided upon the path of ethnic cleansing and humiliation of a proud people who had a legitimate claim,... and it not only back fired on them, but it has dragged the world into a needless on going series of wars and the constant fear of global terrorism.

It's time to face the facts,... it's not going to get any better until justice is seen to be done.

Not really, you keep saying that I don't want justice while you just want a 1 armed justice. Why do the trials have to be done by Palestinians? The trials can be done by the UN since Israelis broke international law, rules of engagement...etc. Many of them are long dead, true. But, some of them are still alive and if the ones alive got trialed and punished, if someone else thought of doing like them, he/she will think a multiple times. They will know that if they commit a crime, their destiny will be like the ones who did the same before.

"The Israelis always planned to steal the land and drive out the legitimate owners, as has been shown here many times, organisations like Hamas, Black September, and Al Quaeda only arose and were accepted by the people as a result of the fact that they were the only groups willing to fight for what the Palestinian people actually wanted. "

Agreed. Although I don't know about Al Qaeda.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

Hopefully, this gets reached by outsiders. Something like the UN. They recognize Palestinians as the real land owners, assign multinational forces to protect the rights of the Palestinians.

Yes, I like the concept of that. What many do is to try to solve all problems at the same time. But there is a problem, outsiders can only push them in the right direction, not solve the problem. One approach would be to first solve urgent problems (Gaza, the humanitarian disaster, I know a guy sitting there, water is huge problem, they cannot drink the water without filters, these filters are a scarcity, electricity is another problem so I have only sporadic contacts with him) The idea which may work is to change the Israelis attitude toward Hamas, if they are removed from the terrorist list and recognized as the legitimate government/authority in Gaza. To solve the humanitarian problem in Gaza is first on the agenda, but the solution must include the Israelis.

 

[senojekips]

Not really, you keep saying that I don't want justice while you just want a 1 armed justice.

How can it not be "one armed" there is a criminal and a victim. You can't charge the victim for attempting to defend himself against his assailant.

Why do the trials have to be done by Palestinians?

Please quote where i said that or even anything that could be vaguely construed as having said that.

The trials can be done by the UN since Israelis broke international law, rules of engagement...etc. Many of them are long dead, true. But, some of them are still alive and if the ones alive got trialed and punished, if someone else thought of doing like them, he/she will think a multiple times. They will know that if they commit a crime, their destiny will be like the ones who did the same before.

No way, the UN should be completely ineligible, as they would have a serious conflict of interest being the organisation who were mainly responsible for the problem in the first place, but I would say that the International Courts of Justice could rule on it.

"The Israelis always planned to steal the land and drive out the legitimate owners, as has been shown here many times, organisations like Hamas, Black September, and Al Quaeda only arose and were accepted by the people as a result of the fact that they were the only groups willing to fight for what the Palestinian people actually wanted. "

Agreed. Although I don't know about Al Qaeda.

Al Quaeda is an extremist Islamic organisation who came about to try and defend Muslim interests, against a very pro Israeli Western alliance.

These groups (all of them) are extremists and only really appeal to a minority of Muslims, however the remainder find themselves with no alternative so they put up with them just to get the job done. I don't agree with their actions either, but it does not preclude me from being able to see why they do what they do. If I were in the Palestinian's position, I'd support their actions in a heartbeat.

 

[senojekips]

How many conflict resolutions have you participated in? The Palestinians are not uneducated, but you are.

I really don't know which is your greater skill, your unfathomable ignorance or your startling arrogance, but you use them both very well.

Obviously you have never participated in any successful problem resolution issues as you don't have the vaguest idea of the requirements to successful and lasting resolutions.

For 17 years* of my working life I was a Seaman's Union Delegate, this unpaid elected position entailed one long series of negotiations and resolutions after another. I might add that during this time I was held in high regard by both management and unionists alike for my honesty and getting to the core of the problem rather than "diplomatically" circling about it. Most of our problems were sorted with 10 minutes between the Skipper and myself without resort to time consuming "meetings" and noisy unproductive talk fests. The first lesson you need to learn is that absolute honesty without malice, will earn you more respect and bring about more lasting resolutions, than pussy footing around the issue to save face and perhaps hurting someone's feelings.

*This lasted until the last 6 years when I was asked to become the Ship owners personal representative onboard. The first such position to be created in our company, so I don't think there were any hard feelings even though we had had some very forthright discussions in the past.

So much for my alleged "lack of experience".

 

[ScarabVenom]

Yes, I like the concept of that. What many do is to try to solve all problems at the same time. But there is a problem, outsiders can only push them in the right direction, not solve the problem. One approach would be to first solve urgent problems (Gaza, the humanitarian disaster, I know a guy sitting there, water is huge problem, they cannot drink the water without filters, these filters are a scarcity, electricity is another problem so I have only sporadic contacts with him) The idea which may work is to change the Israelis attitude toward Hamas, if they are removed from the terrorist list and recognized as the legitimate government/authority in Gaza. To solve the humanitarian problem in Gaza is first on the agenda, but the solution must include the Israelis.

Okay, push them in the right direction. And then using a multinational force and push the IDF out of occupied territories and recognize the Palestinian authority as the government of Palestine. The Israelis are not to be signed in an agreement, just do the solution whether they like it or not and if necessary using force. Israelis don't keep agreements anyways. They have a peace treaty with Egypt and look how many Egyptian civilians and soldiers have been killed by them. They're not to be trusted.

 

[ScarabVenom]

How can it not be "one armed" there is a criminal and a victim. You can't charge the victim for attempting to defend himself against his assailant.

Please quote where i said that or even anything that could be vaguely construed as having said that.

No way, the UN should be completely ineligible, as they would have a serious conflict of interest being the organisation who were mainly responsible for the problem in the first place, but I would say that the International Courts of Justice could rule on it.

Al Quaeda is an extremist Islamic organisation who came about to try and defend Muslim interests, against a very pro Israeli Western alliance.

These groups (all of them) are extremists and only really appeal to a minority of Muslims, however the remainder find themselves with no alternative so they put up with them just to get the job done. I don't agree with their actions either, but it does not preclude me from being able to see why they do what they do. If I were in the Palestinian's position, I'd support their actions in a heartbeat.

Exactly, but also you want the ones who are not to blame to suffer just because they belonged to the criminal somehow.

You said something that was like Palestine will go bankrupt if they do all those trials.

We can agree on the International Courts of Justice.

 

[senojekips]

Exactly, but also you want the ones who are not to blame to suffer just because they belonged to the criminal somehow.

If you look about you you will see that the families of criminals suffer anywhere they happen to be, and they are certainly not allowed to benefit from the crimes of their associates, partners or parents.

Next you'll be saying that we shouldn't imprison criminals because it's not fair on their wives and children who have done nothing wrong. Don't blame justice, blame the criminals for putting them in this position.

 

[ScarabVenom]

If you look about you you will see that the families of criminals suffer anywhere they happen to be, and they are certainly not allowed to benefit from the crimes of their associates, partners or parents.

Next you'll be saying that we shouldn't imprison criminals because it's not fair on their wives and children who have done nothing wrong. Don't blame justice, blame the criminals for putting them in this position.

That can be true in some cases. But, that doesn't mean that because they will suffer we should make them suffer more.

No, I wasn't going to say that neither did I.

 

[senojekips]

That can be true in some cases. But, that doesn't mean that because they will suffer we should make them suffer more.

No, I wasn't going to say that neither did I.

As I pointed out,... We, are not making them suffer, it is the criminal elements of their families who are responsible for any suffering. Like all criminals, their family members committed their crimes willingly and knowingly, thinking that they would never be made to pay for it and therefore their families and descendants would never be made to suffer as a result. As I said in my last post, "Don't blame justice, blame the criminals for putting them in this position".

No you didn't actually say it,.. but what you have said about the suffering of criminals families means exactly the same thing.

 

[ScarabVenom]

As I pointed out,... We, are not making them suffer, it is the criminal elements of their families who are responsible for any suffering. Like all criminals, their family members committed their crimes willingly and knowingly, thinking that they would never be made to pay for it and therefore their families and descendants would never be made to suffer as a result. As I said in my last post, "Don't blame justice, blame the criminals for putting them in this position".

No you didn't actually say it,.. but what you have said about the suffering of criminals families means exactly the same thing.

Well...kicking them out of where they were born isn't suffering? What did they do? As we said before, it's the Palestinian land. If the "Israelis" are willing to live according to the Palestinian law...sure. If they don't like it, they leave. At least we have to give them a choice.

I'll make it simple,

It was a rainy day and you found an old man homeless man on the street. You felt sympathy for him, you took him inside your house. And you told him, in my house this and that doesn't happen. He's in your house he has to stay by your rules. If he followed your rules as the owner, fine. If he starting ignoring what you said to him, then you kick him out. You've been a good man for providing him shelter in this troublesome period, he in return, bit the hand that fed him. So, you kick him out...but history will judge that you have been a nice man from the beginning. While, if you didn't feel like taking him inside your home from the first place, well...it's your right to leave him outside and not let him in but you know, we're all humans it would be better if you helped him. But, you're not to be blamed if you refused.

The Israelis stay in the Palestinian state by the Palestinian law. If they accept the Palestinian law since it's a Palestinian state...sure. If they don't, they have to leave. But still, if the Palestinians don't want the Israelis inside their land from the first place, well...no-one can blame the Palestinians although, it would have been better to care for the civilians. But, again...if Palestinians refused, they can't be blamed. Do you get my point now?

 

[senojekips]

Well...kicking them out of where they were born isn't suffering? What did they do? As we said before, it's the Palestinian land. If the "Israelis" are willing to live according to the Palestinian law...sure. If they don't like it, they leave. At least we have to give them a choice.

--snip---

You don't need to make anything simple, you just need to read what I said.

If they are being kicked out, it is not our fault or that of the Palestinians, it is the fault of the criminals that committed the crime in the first place. Plus, if you read every comment I have ever made on this forum, nowhere will you ever find that I have said the Israelis must be kicked out, but I did say that the Palestinians must be given back their land and possessions. If you know a way to do that without the Israelis having to give up what was stolen please let me know. Your plan just further punishes the Palestinians, it doesn't solve anything as the loss of their land and their possessions is what is the cause of the problem.

If you steal a car and give it to your son or he inherits it from you, when the crime is uncovered, the vehicle is given back to the the person from whom it was stolen, even though your son never stole it he is not allowed to keep the car or even a part of the car.

 

[ScarabVenom]

You don't need to make anything simple, you just need to read what I said.

If they are being kicked out, it is not our fault or that of the Palestinians, it is the fault of the criminals that committed the crime in the first place. Plus, if you read every comment I have ever made on this forum, nowhere will you ever find that I have said the Israelis must be kicked out, but I did say that the Palestinians must be given back their land and possessions. If you know a way to do that without the Israelis having to give up what was stolen please let me know. Your plan just further punishes the Palestinians, it doesn't solve anything as the loss of their land and their possessions is what is the cause of the problem.

If you steal a car and give it to your son or he inherits it from you, when the crime is uncovered, the vehicle is given back to the the person from whom it was stolen, even though your son never stole it he is not allowed to keep the car or even a part of the car.

Okay, it's the fault of the CRIMINALS. Why do you want to blame the non-criminal because of the criminal? If they're to be kicked out, it would be because the Palestinians don't want them to live with them. Other than that, I don't see any valid reason to kick them out for. The Palestinians must be given back their land and possessions, we didn't disagree on that. The best way would be that the Israelis remain in their homes, but they pay the Palestinians some money annually or monthly or whatever. Or they can provide the Palestinians with something in return. If both parties accept then well, fair trade.

The Israelis WILL NOT be OWNING. It's all property of the Palestinians with the Israelis living in it WITH THE CONSENT of the Palestinians.

 

[senojekips]

Okay, it's the fault of the CRIMINALS. Why do you want to blame the non-criminal because of the criminal? .

I don't blame them, any blame falls on the heads of the criminals, that's the whole point. Don't ask me, ask the criminals why they put their families in this position.

As I pointed out earlier, this is the normal way all First world countries deal with these things, it is a basic precept of Common Law. We don't say, "Oh we can't punish criminals because their families will suffer.

Conversely, you are saying that the victims (Palestinians) should get no justice because it would upset the families of the criminals. No,... the criminal's families suffer because of the fact that the criminals stole the land, not because the victims are legally and morally entitled to have their land and possessions returned to them.

If the criminals never wanted this to happen they should not have committed the crimes.

The Israelis WILL NOT be OWNING. It's all property of the Palestinians with the Israelis living in it WITH THE CONSENT of the Palestinians.

What on earth are you thinking about,... that's the exact reason why the Palestinians want the land back, so they can go back and live there, they don't want to stay in the refugee camps so the Israelis can remain on their land, they want to go back to their land where the Israelis are now living, so that they can farm the land, how are they going to do that if the Israelis are living there building their "settlements" and roads over the Palestinian's grazing land and fruit orchards.

There was no "spare land" 100 years ago (although the Zionists insisted that there was), and no room for a second population, that is the reason why the Zionists had to steal the land from it's rightful owners in the first place.

 

[MontyB]

I don't blame them, any blame falls on the heads of the criminals, that's the whole point. Don't ask me, ask the criminals why they put their families in this position.

As I pointed out earlier, this is the normal way all First world countries deal with these things, it is a basic precept of Common Law. We don't say, "Oh we can't punish criminals because their families will suffer.

Actually we do in many respects, more often than not a sentence will be reduced or adapted to suit a families situation, instead of just applying maximum sentences people will be given "suspended" or "Home" sentences (obviously not for major cases like murder though) rather than have a family destroyed.

As far as this discussion goes however I think you are missing the biggest point being made here, who would enforce or even undertake the expulsion of Jews from Israel and where would many of them go?
The answer is no one therefore what you are asking for will never happen.

So given that reality indicates that you can't exterminate the Jews or the Palestinians and you cant deport either of them you are left with one option a compromise and part of compromise is that in the end neither win but both gain enough to make them change direction.

Is this unfortunate for Palestinians wanting to go home yes it is but at some point you have to decide what can realistically be achieved and that must surely be a two state solution and personally I think it is not unreasonable to base the Palestinian state on the 1967 borders with some land traded to provide a more contiguous state.

 

[ScarabVenom]

I don't blame them, any blame falls on the heads of the criminals, that's the whole point. Don't ask me, ask the criminals why they put their families in this position.

As I pointed out earlier, this is the normal way all First world countries deal with these things, it is a basic precept of Common Law. We don't say, "Oh we can't punish criminals because their families will suffer.

Conversely, you are saying that the victims (Palestinians) should get no justice because it would upset the families of the criminals. No,... the criminal's families suffer because of the fact that the criminals stole the land, not because the victims are legally and morally entitled to have their land and possessions returned to them.

If the criminals never wanted this to happen they should not have committed the crimes.



What on earth are you thinking about,... that's the exact reason why the Palestinians want the land back, so they can go back and live there, they don't want to stay in the refugee camps so the Israelis can remain on their land, they want to go back to their land where the Israelis are now living, so that they can farm the land, how are they going to do that if the Israelis are living there building their "settlements" and roads over the Palestinian's grazing land and fruit orchards.

There was no "spare land" 100 years ago (although the Zionists insisted that there was), and no room for a second population, that is the reason why the Zionists had to steal the land from it's rightful owners in the first place.

Well.."Ask the criminals why they put them in this position" So, let's grab every serial killer and blame their families for the deaths. You're talking as if the family has 1 big brain and all the bodies are connected, which is not true. Every man got his own brain, so, the one who committed the crime gets punished the family have nothing to do with it.

"Oh, we can't punish criminals cuz their families will suffer."

Well, that's not what I was trying to deliver. Punish the criminal, I don't disagree, I do totally agree. Don't put the families or any relatives into it. The fault of 1 man doesn't make the sky black.

Well..the Palestinians want, how did you know. If what you're saying is true, what I said gives them the choice of kicking the Israelis out and they keep their possessions. What I said doesn't keep the Israelis by force. If what you're saying is true, they do can get their possessions.

 

[senojekips]

Well.."Ask the criminals why they put them in this position" So, let's grab every serial killer and blame their families for the deaths. You're talking as if the family has 1 big brain and all the bodies are connected, which is not true. Every man got his own brain, so, the one who committed the crime gets punished the family have nothing to do with it.

"Oh, we can't punish criminals cuz their families will suffer."

Well, that's not what I was trying to deliver. Punish the criminal, I don't disagree, I do totally agree. Don't put the families or any relatives into it. The fault of 1 man doesn't make the sky black.

Well..the Palestinians want, how did you know. If what you're saying is true, what I said gives them the choice of kicking the Israelis out and they keep their possessions. What I said doesn't keep the Israelis by force. If what you're saying is true, they do can get their possessions.

I don't know if you can't read, don't read, or are just being obtuse, but what I have said is the standard practice in every first world country on earth. When a criminal is punished his family is not exempt from any side effects of that punishment, and any profit or possessions gained as a result of a crime are forfeit to their rightful owners. Like it or not, that is the law as it stands.

If you try to burn down someone else's house and the fire gets away and kills your children, you can't blame the house owner.

You obviously have not read what I said about "Kicking out" the Israelis in Post #1031, I think that it's time you started to read what I'm actually saying, instead of what you think I'm saying. It is quite clear that you are not reading what I say, so there is no purpose in me answering you again.

As far as this discussion goes however I think you are missing the biggest point being made here, who would enforce or even undertake the expulsion of Jews from Israel and where would many of them go?
The answer is no one therefore what you are asking for will never happen.

If the Palestinians had their land returned to them, and they had the UN support they deserve, I think that the Israelis would leave of their own free will. It would get rather cosy for the Israelis once they had been disarmed by the legitimate government and the Palestinians were allowed to return to their homes, supported by that government.

Never say never,... I remember a time when that was said of South Africa too. All it will take is for enough people to demand that their politicians get a bit of moral backbone and demand that the right thing is done.

If the UN were to have taken your attitude about what could have been realistically achieved in 1947 Israel would never have got where it is now. The only reason they have achieved what they have, is that the Zionists lied (what else)?, and always fully intended to ethnically cleanse Palestine of it's legitimate owners. Y'know what they say,... "One good turn deserves another".

 

[MontyB]

I am sorry I do not agree and using South Africa as an example of what can be achieved is not a good one given the exodus of white South Africans that has taken place and the continuing corruption of successive South African governments would indicate the the country is well on the way to becoming a standard African failed state.

I am still convinced that the only chance for peace and for an eventual single state is the formation of two states inter-dependent on each other.

 

[senojekips]

I am sorry I do not agree and using South Africa as an example of what can be achieved is not a good one given the exodus of white South Africans that has taken place and the continuing corruption of successive South African governments would indicate the the country is well on the way to becoming a standard African failed state.

I am still convinced that the only chance for peace and for an eventual single state is the formation of two states inter-dependent on each other.

But you entirely ignore that it was the moral thing to do and that being their country they can do with it what they wish, and they chose to do it that way.

And you also answered your own previous question regarding what would happen with the present Israelis living there now.

 

[MontyB]

Morality is not something either side in this argument can use in their defense.
As for an exodus of Israelis well no offense to the South African community but we have enough now all wandering around with hideous accents and knives (god only knows why South Africans seem to think they need to carry knives) I really don't want 5 million Israelis added to that mix.

In my opinion the simplest answer, the answer with the most likelihood of success and the answer that has the least likelihood of coming back to bite us on the butt in the future is the 2 State option with enough interdependency to encourage a one state solution further down the track and to be perfectly honest I think even the Palestinians see this as well but as usual no one can get Israel to the table in good faith.

 

[BritinBritain]

There is a lot of misconception in South Africa of who owns what. The ANC claims of whites on "black land" is bullsh!te. In area's like the Cape there were no Zulu or Khosa tribes until after whites had landed and settled.

In my opinion the so called "rainbow nation" has been a complete and utter failure, farmers are being murdered daily. Some have said that the farm murders have been orchestrated by the ANC to drive white farmers from their farms. Its got to the point now that where South Africa use to export food, its crossed the line where South Africa has been forced to import food.

I have to agree with Monty on this one.

The reason why South Africans carry knives, they are still in the "self protection" mindset of South Africa.