So why do people hate Israel?

[VDKMS]

The fact that I did not quote everything in no way changed the facts.

You did argue that owning and occupying (having) were one and the same.
After I proved you wrong you did apologise for your mistake. (Israel Rightfully own the west Bank #241)
You did later deny that you had stated that "owning" and "occupying" were one and the same. (That was the first time I put you on Ignore for blatant lying)

Your doing it again, aren't you? Giving the impression that I said owning and occupying (having) were one and the same. It was about owning and ownership. Not about owning and occupation.
And were do you find the word occupation in that post#241 ????

All of this has been posted with copies of both yours and my posts quoted from the relevant posts, yet you now try to shift the goal posts and state that you were talking of another post. How can this be so when I copied and posted the posts in question. Don't even bother answering, because I'm not going to reply.

And your copies come from two different treads. That's why I put the links so the reader can easely verify it.

And that was the post I was referring to when I accused you of lying, but obviously you have problems remembering, as you lie in so many posts.

accused but never proven.

Now, as for your personal (total absence of) character, having had a Moderator delete or change one of my posts without consulting me. You are not worthy of my time and henceforth will not be answered. I will deny what you say and show you for the shallow spineless Zionazi that you are.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The film clip above is a typical Israeli denial, having no "proof" that the boy was not wounded or killed.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rbOupl01Vo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rbOupl01Vo[/ame]

What is truly interesting, is that regardless of everything else, "If the terrified boy who we see cowering behind his father was not hit, why is he shown lying on the ground where he is clearly exposed to Israeli fire, if he was not at least wounded he would have remained behind the drum and his father, trying to make himself as small a target as possible. The second concern being that Palestinians like everyone else in Israeli occupied territory must carry Identity papers, so the Israelis would have records of his location, yet they can't produce the boy, something they could surely do if he were still alive.

A French ballistic expert testified that the bullets could not come from the Israeli side. The scene with the boy was also cut. I don¡t know if your German was good enough to understand it but the judge demanded the release of the full film and there we see that at the end the "dead boy" moves to look at the camera.

@Froggy

A Palestinian poll found out that 95% of the Palestinians just want to have a good life and that the difference between Israel and Palestine should be handled at the UN.
5% of the population are fanatics that ruin the lives of all the others.

The fact of the matter is that the Palestinians are not fighting over a religious matter, as Palestinians of all religions want the Israelis out of their land. The fighting is over the Zionist occupation of land that had been lived on continuously by the native population almost since time immemorial.
The term "Palestinians" includes all those who had lived in the area continuously including Muslims Christians and Jews.

I will admit that the Mullahs and the rabbis have attempted to hijack the whole thing in an effort to involve those of their particular following into the fight.

That's crap. Who started the Palestinian riots? A Muslim cleric! Why? Because non Muslims are not allowed to govern Muslim land. They attacked Jews paraying at the wall and native Palestinian Jews in Jerusalem who lived there for as long, if not longer, than their Palestinian counterparts. If it would have been a dispute about landgrab they would have assaulted the immigrant Jews who were buying land from the Palestinians.

Christians are leaving the Palestinian territories to live in Israel!

40 years ago Nablus had 3.000 Christians, now they have 700.

In september 2006 seven churches in the West Bank and Gaza were ransacked.

In June 2007, Muslim extremists attacked and destroyed the Rosary Sisters School and the Latin Church in Gaza City. The intruders burned copies of the Bible.

The term Palestinian was mostly used by the Jews and Christians. The ones we call now Palestinians called themselves Syrians. The others were Arabs.

Under the British Mandate all people living there became officially Palestinian citizens.

Keep on dreaming.

 

[MontyB]

I have decided to take a section from another thread to perhaps illustrate the problem in the region:

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/638373-post.html

On the 7th of October when Egyptian victory was at it's mightiest, Sadat told Henry Kissinger; the American Prime Minister the following...

[FONT=&quot]"He told of his lonely decision making that led to the war, of his conclusion that there would never be a serious negotiation so long as Israel was able to equate security with military predominance. Now that he had vindicated Egyptian honor, Sadat told me, he had two objectives: to "regain my territory" (the 1967 boundary in the Sinai) and to make peace." - Years of Upheaval. Author, Henry Kissinger.
[/FONT]

And this is the key to peace in the middle east.
It has always interested me how as Israel got closer and closer to losing a war with Egypt they became more and more interested in peace with Egypt.

I think however it now knows that it has very little chance of acquiring land from neighbouring countries consequently it has focused on the gradual destruction of the Palestinians through the building of settlements until there permanence makes a Palestinian state of any relevance impossible.

The problem Israel now faces in this field is that for as much as it has looked all doleful and expressed its wishes for peace fewer and fewer people believe this wish is anything more than lip service to allow the continued building of settlements without international pressure.

The simple reality is that until Israel has to make peace through fear of imminent destruction it will not make peace.

 

[Yossarian]

I have decided to take a section from another thread to perhaps illustrate the problem in the region:

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/638373-post.html



And this is the key to peace in the middle east.
It has always interested me how as Israel got closer and closer to losing a war with Egypt they became more and more interested in peace with Egypt.

I think however it now knows that it has very little chance of acquiring land from neighbouring countries consequently it has focused on the gradual destruction of the Palestinians through the building of settlements until there permanence makes a Palestinian state of any relevance impossible.

The problem Israel now faces in this field is that for as much as it has looked all doleful and expressed its wishes for peace fewer and fewer people believe this wish is anything more than lip service to allow the continued building of settlements without international pressure.

The simple reality is that until Israel has to make peace through fear of imminent destruction it will not make peace.

Indeed, Israel's complex of interest groups and committees throughout the western world seems to tie in on the fact to most western societies. If something that goes on long enough, and is kept quiet enough it will be forgotten about or just plain out disregarded.

In the west we always will remember the invasion of Poland in 1939, or the Iron curtain swallowing Europe in 1945.

The blockade of Berlin, or the invasion of the Falklands.

These dates hold remembrance for us.

But if the current state of suppression continues on the deeds of Israeli settlers.

Then when it happens, we westerners will be impressed upon to not shed a notion of care or interests on the day that Palestine Was swallowed.

However the millions of those who live there, will never forget it, neither will their children.

Thus the cycle of violence hastened by western ignorance will continue.

 

[VDKMS]

Indeed, Israel's complex of interest groups and committees throughout the western world seems to tie in on the fact to most western societies. If something that goes on long enough, and is kept quiet enough it will be forgotten about or just plain out disregarded.

In the west we always will remember the invasion of Poland in 1939, or the Iron curtain swallowing Europe in 1945.

The blockade of Berlin, or the invasion of the Falklands.

These dates hold remembrance for us.

But if the current state of suppression continues on the deeds of Israeli settlers.

Then when it happens, we westerners will be impressed upon to not shed a notion of care or interests on the day that Palestine Was swallowed.

However the millions of those who live there, will never forget it, neither will their children.

Thus the cycle of violence hastened by western ignorance will continue.

Not all is lost. Israel has/had settlements in three areas. Sinai, Gaza and West Bank. They removed the settlememts in the Sinai after a peace accord with Egypt (which still stand). They removed the settlements in Gaza unilaterally and got rockets back. They will remove settlements in the West Bank (but I don't think in East Jerusalem) if a good peace accord with the Palestinians is possible.

You are also reading the wrong news:

Gaza Mom Chooses Israeli Hospital to Save Baby

Hamas demolishes "illegal" PalArab homes; shoot protesters. Human rights orgs silent.

 

[Yossarian]

Not all is lost. Israel has/had settlements in three areas. Sinai, Gaza and West Bank. They removed the settlememts in the Sinai after a peace accord with Egypt (which still stand). They removed the settlements in Gaza unilaterally and got rockets back. They will remove settlements in the West Bank (but I don't think in East Jerusalem) if a good peace accord with the Palestinians is possible.

You are also reading the wrong news:

Gaza Mom Chooses Israeli Hospital to Save Baby

Hamas demolishes "illegal" PalArab homes; shoot protesters. Human rights orgs silent.

Although I admire the Israeli government's attempt at displaying that these settlements are infringing on what's left of Palestine in a very modest sense.


Israeli settlers have routinely disobeyed their government's directive, many are routinely adamant that even if their settlement or home is destroyed they will simply build again, this happens much more often then not. Over the passage of time many settlers count on the negligance of the Israeli government to grow weary of routinely demolishing the same rebuilt settlement over and over again and just legitimizes it.

Also what is "wrong news" I have never heard of such a notion outside the scope of selective information to further one's own plans?

But if that's what you are implying then I suppose that label applies to all news...

 

[MontyB]

Although I admire the Israeli government's attempt at displaying that these settlements are infringing on what's left of Palestine in a very modest sense.


Israeli settlers have routinely disobeyed their government's directive, many are routinely adamant that even if their settlement or home is destroyed they will simply build again, this happens much more often then not. Over the passage of time many settlers count on the negligance of the Israeli government to grow weary of routinely demolishing the same rebuilt settlement over and over again and just legitimizes it.

Also what is "wrong news" I have never heard of such a notion outside the scope of selective information to further one's own plans?

But if that's what you are implying then I suppose that label applies to all news...

But even that is smoke and mirrors, they allow some dodgy settlement to spring up and then eventually they pull it down and say aren't we nice but they then resettle the ones they remove by expanding existing settlements which were built on occupied land in the first place.

Israel is the Penn and Teller of governments.

 

[VDKMS]

Israel's Rights as a Nation-State in International Diplomacy - Alan Baker p.67

"...Article 27 of Annex III (Civil Affairs Annex) to the 1995 agreement sets out the agreed terms for planning and zoning, and construction powers in the territories, and places no limitation on either side to build in the areas under its respective jurisdiction."

The central legal and political change brought about by the agreement is the fact that the two sides agreed pending the outcome of the negotiations on a permanent status agreement between them, to divide their respective jurisdictions in the West bank into Areas A an B (Palestinian jurisdiction) and Area C (Israeli jurisdiction).

They defined the respective powers and responsibilities of each side in the area under its control. In Area A (the major cities and towns and highly populated areas) Israel completely transferred all powers and responsibilities to the Palestinian Authority including security and police powers. In Area B Israel transferred all powers and responsibilities except for security, over the villages that predominantly constituted Area B. Area C, without Palestinian villages and population centers, includes the Israeli settlements and military installations. Thus Israel's powers and responsibilities in Area C include all aspects regarding Israeli settlements and military installations - all this pending the outcome of the permanent status negotiations."

 

[senojekips]

Yet another fine example of Israel's Nazi policies in action. A blatant contravention of International law.

3. ILLEGAL POPULATION TRANSFER: Israel settles Israeli citizens in hundreds of Israeli settlements on occupied land not originally given to them in the UN Partition Plan (laws & principles violated, international response).

News article: Israel approves more expansion of settlement near Jerusalem

13 Hours Ago
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel on Thursday issued a detailed plan for the building of some 800 new homes on annexed land in the West Bank that is certain to attract further international condemnation of its settlement policies. A planning committee issued a call for bids from contractors to start building 797 housing units on the western slopes of the urban settlement of Gilo, an area that Israel seized in the 1967 Middle East war and later declared part of Jerusalem. The annexation has never been recognized internationally. ...

More...

 

[BritinBritain]

I've just come across this little gem.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=48221

This year marked 30 years since the first significant events of the war – which claimed the lives of 258 British and 649 Argentine troops – including the sinking of the General Belgrano, an Argentine warship.

On April 2, 1982, Argentina had invaded the Falkland Islands and, just days later, a team of seven civilian pilots was summoned by the Argentine air force and sworn to secrecy.

They were to aid their country’s war effort by flying twice to Tel Aviv, to load up planes with Israeli weapons and artillery, to be used by troops on the ground against the British.

Flying a non-military Boeing 707 that belonged to national airline Aerol?neas Argentinas, Ramin Arce, head of the group, left Buenos Aires for Tel Aviv, via the Canary Islands, on April 7.

“When we landed at Ben-Gurion, a committee of Argentines and Israelis met us,” Arce told Clarin, an Argentine national newspaper, breaking his 30-year silence. “They told us they had been waiting.”

It was the first time an Aerolineas Argentinas plane had touched down in Israel. Nobody was to know, until now, that it would return to Buenos Aires filled with weaponry.

Jorge Prelooker, now 75, was pilot of the second flight to Tel Aviv. “The British couldn’t attack as we were flying non-military aircraft with civilians aboard,” he said. “There would have been international uproar had we been shot down.”

Prelooker explained how the flights to Israel were also used as reconnaissance. “They told us to look out for British warships as we crossed the Atlantic Ocean and report back to Buenos Aires,” he said.

Among the weaponry that was loaded onto the planes in Tel Aviv were air-to-air missiles, anti-tank mines, mortars, bombs and machine guns.

The pilots also embarked on four similar flights to Tripoli, Libya, where the military dictatorship that took Argentina to war had struck up an arms deal with Colonel Muammar Gaddafi.

In addition to the operation, Israel collaborated with the dictatorship in Argentina during the Falklands War by sending arms via Peru so that the British would not find out.

The then prime minister, Menachem Begin, agreed to supply equipment – including gas masks, radar systems and fuel tanks for bombers – to Leopoldo Galtieri, head of the military junta, reportedly because of a long-standing hatred of the UK.

Meanwhile, Peruvian president Fernando Belaunde Therry authorised the transport of arms from Israel to Lima and Callao, a major Pacific port, before their transfer to Buenos Aires aboard Aerolineas Argentinas aircraft.

Crucially, the Peruvian air force signed blank purchase orders during the 74-day conflict, enabling the Argentine dictatorship to request whatever it needed from Israel.

 

[ScarabVenom]

accused but never proven.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rbOupl01Vo

It's really quite annoying to see you trying so hard to prove that it wasn't Israel and maybe others trying so hard to prove that it was Israel while no-body cared about saying "it's really a tragedy that a kid on his age didn't enjoy life and ended up getting shot like this."

I honestly feel ashamed that civilian casualties these days are being used as a tool to blame others. A child dies, what they do is "LOOK! HE SHOT THE KID! NOW YOU BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAW THAT HE'S A HEARTLESS UNCIVILIZED FILTHY SELF? I'M THE GOOD GUY!"

 

[ScarabVenom]

1 small maybe stupid question...

Are the only people in this forum who support Israel are either Jewish, Israelis or VDKMS?

 

[Dzhordzhevich]

I heard that they are whiping out Palestinians. But is Palesinte terrorist want to do the same thing to Israel.

It's not like that we hate Israel,at least not me.But I dislike them for what they are doing to Palestinians.They claim Palestine as their part of country,but it's not.

 

[Dzhordzhevich]

1 small maybe stupid question...

Are the only people in this forum who support Israel are either Jewish, Israelis or VDKMS?

Not a stupid question...there are a lot of people who support Israel,I don't know what's the reason for that...and well,I don't support Israel...

 

[Yossarian]

Not a stupid question...there are a lot of people who support Israel,I don't know what's the reason for that...and well,I don't support Israel...

That goes both ways, people question me all the time why I don't support Israel, some give that typical Bush Era stare of "you must sympathize with those ####ing terrorists then"

I get that allot, I don't even bother explaining anymore.

Apparently in the 21st century looking at a map, or looking up census and historical data is incredibly difficult for most human beings. So difficult in fact that the ability to practice such does not exist in many people these days. People are passive anymore, actually analyzing a situation and thinking must require copieous amounts of energy.

And watching extremely biased unsupported sources of media outlets is so easy that it can almost be considered pleasurable.

I sometimes believe our civilization is moving backwards as time goes by in this century.

 

[senojekips]

Not a stupid question...there are a lot of people who support Israel,I don't know what's the reason for that...and well,I don't support Israel...

Israel is supported by the same sort of people who supported the policies of Adolph Hitler. There were ardent Nazis in many countries outside of Germany.

Some people just have no morals.

 

[Dzhordzhevich]

Israel is supported by the same sort of people who supported the policies of Adolph Hitler. There were ardent Nazis in many countries outside of Germany.

Some people just have no morals.

Honestly this was a bit hard for me to understand,but I understood what you mean.And I agree with everything you said.

 

[MontyB]

That goes both ways, people question me all the time why I don't support Israel, some give that typical Bush Era stare of "you must sympathize with those ####ing terrorists then"

I get that allot, I don't even bother explaining anymore.

Apparently in the 21st century looking at a map, or looking up census and historical data is incredibly difficult for most human beings. So difficult in fact that the ability to practice such does not exist in many people these days. People are passive anymore, actually analyzing a situation and thinking must require copieous amounts of energy.

And watching extremely biased unsupported sources of media outlets is so easy that it can almost be considered pleasurable.

I sometimes believe our civilization is moving backwards as time goes by in this century.

While I don't disagree with your description I do not agree with your conclusion.

I agree people are becoming desensitised but I think that this is because media sources have become very polarizing, we are constantly bombarded with so much information much of it inaccurate that it has become impossible to sort fact from fiction and as such people gravitate towards information that suits them rather than challenge themselves to find out the truth.

This is compounded by the speed of life today where as 20-30 years ago you could sit and read a book, newspaper etc. now all you get is sound bites as you run out the door.

But things are changing and you can see that with the growing disillusionment towards almost everything.

However in terms of Israel I would suggest there has been a huge change in perception.
As late as the mid-1980's you wouldn't dare suggest that Israel was becoming a pariah nation as you would be drowned out by the "remember the holocaust" crowd but these days you can not only suggest it but you will receive a certain level of support which I think in part is because of the volume of information being made available now and also because many people are just sick to death of the Middle East problem and Israel is no longer seen as the poor little country full of the downtrodden but the catalysts of the Middle Eastern problem.

I think these forums are also showing the general trend away from unconditional support of Israel, in 2005 when I joined these forums if anyone dared suggest that Israel wasn't the greatest thing since sliced bread and the Palestinians weren't the great unwashed deserving of all they got you would have 20+ posters getting very angry and threads being closed, now look at this thread and you see the exact opposite.

As I have pointed out previously time is not something that is on Israels side.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

1 small maybe stupid question...

Are the only people in this forum who support Israel are either Jewish, Israelis or VDKMS?

Not a stupid question, if you hadn't asked it that had been stupid. There are people here supporting Israel and there are people here not supporting Israel. Both sides have their valid points sometimes. There are major issues addressed by Seno which I agree with sometimes and other times I disagree with him. Sometimes I agree with VDKMS, other times I don't, with saying that; I am trying to stay neutral and not support any of the actors in this conflict. I am, however, not so pleased with the discussion here. Instead of playing the blame game, I would like to discuss solutions, not the current situation. To achieve a solution, we need to think outside the box. Personally, the only way to achieve peace is for Israel to gamble and not playing the old game, which so many countries are playing. They need a two state solution, Israel has achieved a lot militarily, but they have screwed things up politically.

 

[Yossarian]

While I don't disagree with your description I do not agree with your conclusion.

I agree people are becoming desensitised but I think that this is because media sources have become very polarizing, we are constantly bombarded with so much information much of it inaccurate that it has become impossible to sort fact from fiction and as such people gravitate towards information that suits them rather than challenge themselves to find out the truth.

This is compounded by the speed of life today where as 20-30 years ago you could sit and read a book, newspaper etc. now all you get is sound bites as you run out the door.

But things are changing and you can see that with the growing disillusionment towards almost everything.

However in terms of Israel I would suggest there has been a huge change in perception.
As late as the mid-1980's you wouldn't dare suggest that Israel was becoming a pariah nation as you would be drowned out by the "remember the holocaust" crowd but these days you can not only suggest it but you will receive a certain level of support which I think in part is because of the volume of information being made available now and also because many people are just sick to death of the Middle East problem and Israel is no longer seen as the poor little country full of the downtrodden but the catalysts of the Middle Eastern problem.

I think these forums are also showing the general trend away from unconditional support of Israel, in 2005 when I joined these forums if anyone dared suggest that Israel wasn't the greatest thing since sliced bread and the Palestinians weren't the great unwashed deserving of all they got you would have 20+ posters getting very angry and threads being closed, now look at this thread and you see the exact opposite.

As I have pointed out previously time is not something that is on Israels side.

Part of what I see here is the eventual disattachment between orginal citizens of Israel and their thoughts and goals with the future Israelies.

The same goes for people who are eying the situation around the globe. As the Cold War generation gives way to the "21 Kids". The introduction of mass media and disaperance of the Cold War Mentality will undoubtely change the outlook on the situation.

 

[ScarabVenom]

Not a stupid question...there are a lot of people who support Israel,I don't know what's the reason for that...and well,I don't support Israel...

Well..yeah, just many times I check a thread while reading somehow it gets to talk about Israel and ALWAYS I find VDKMS and some other members with the Israeli flag and always find seno arguing him so, I was like....why is it only VDKMS who I see defending Israel? And if it's not him, it's a member with the Israeli flag.