So why do people hate Israel?

[RayManKiller3]

The most important thing is that Israeli accept the land doesn't belong to them and it's Palestinian's land. If they accept this the other problems will be solved easily. The number of Jews in the Israel is about 5 million people. the world is large enough to find a place for them. we can find a lot of solution for this.

You completely ignored the post above you which explain the problems with this line of thinking. This isn't a simple case like you and Seno like to deem it.

Who is going to foot the bill? Who is going to force the Israelis off the land if they do not want to go? Are you going to tell the Israelis to go back to the countries that exiled and persecuted them? What if these countries refuse? Don't be rediculous. There is a reason why they mass migrated to Israel.

Not all the time can things be reversed and time is the ultimate healer. 2 state solution with defined borders and a demilitarized Palestinian state. As for the refugee problem, I am sure other countries are willing to help out in sharing the burden. Bush was willing to accept 100,000 Palestinian refugees as U.S citizens if they agreed with the deal.

 

[senojekips]

Unfortantly the simple ability for Israelies to pack up and go back, with so many people so embedded there isn't that feasible.

Did you stop even for a second to think that each of them moved to Israel easily enough.....

 

[r.fox]

Did you stop even for a second to think that each of them moved to Israel easily enough.....

yes many of them moved away from europe after ww2. they didnt want to be anywhere near the place. also the israel believes that the Palestinians have a country of there own. called jordan. while this view might be flawed, at least they have one, whereas, most of the arabic states didnt even reconise the country of Israel untill they got their but kicked form the current boarders of israel almost back to their own capitials during the 6 day, and the Yom kippur/Ramadam wars.

 

[Yossarian]

Did you stop even for a second to think that each of them moved to Israel easily enough.....

Or was forced there, what about the one's born there? I don't like what Israel is doing there as much as you do, but just ejecting a huge populace doesn't solve anything.

Think of all the other places of asylum who will have to face these challenges? Anyone want to volunteer? I believe once self interest takes over for the host countries the mentality of what to do with the Israelies would change right quickly.

This has never been done with merit in our history, I don't see it changing now.


Also imagine how stunted or different our civilization would be today if every time a soceity took over another's territory they simpley pulled back on moral grounds, No empire's would have been forged, and you and I would not have enjoyed the lives we live today if everybody in this world of ours colored within the lines throughout the ages.

I am not defending Israel, I am just saying, based off past experiances of our species what you are considering does not sit well with human habit and behaviour paterns which has in the past leaked into and will continue to leak into any agreement in this region of the world.

You can label this injustice, or immorality all day but when it comes down to it if you ask me it's just people being people, in that respect I am not surprised the situation is as it is.

Maybe one day this fallacy in our race will be over come and we can all hope to aspire to greater things as beings on this Earth.

 

[hamidreza]

Originally Posted by:RayManKiller3
You completely ignored the post above you which explain the problems with this line of thinking. This isn't a simple case like you and Seno like to deem it.

Who is going to foot the bill? Who is going to force the Israelis off the land if they do not want to go? Are you going to tell the Israelis to go back to the countries that exiled and persecuted them? What if these countries refuse? Don't be rediculous. There is a reason why they mass migrated to Israel.

Not all the time can things be reversed and time is the ultimate healer. 2 state solution with defined borders and a demilitarized Palestinian state. As for the refugee problem, I am sure other countries are willing to help out in sharing the burden. Bush was willing to accept 100,000 Palestinian refugees as U.S citizens if they agreed with the deal.

It is simple like drinking a glass of water
The US accepts thousands people as immigrants every year. In some years this number is about 1 million people. Canada, Australia, New Zealand and some Europe country do in the same way. Why they shouldn’t accept Israeli as immigrant? Didn’t European do crime with Jews in WWII and aren’t they Indebted to them?
These 5 million people can be distributed in these countries during for example 10 years without any problem. They even can give a small part of their land to them to establish their country. The Israel area is about 0.2% of the whole US area. What will happen if you give 0.2% of your land to them? If you aren’t agree how do you expect that the Palestinian give more than 90% of their land to Israeli?
About the cost I think there are a lot of countries that can help Israeli to leave Palestine. The European can help as the WWII compensation. The US can help too. They give Israel several billion dollars every day as grant. Some Arab rich stupid countries can help. For example Qatar and Saudi Arabia who are giving salary and weapon to Syria’s Rebels now and help Israel and the US in this way!!!
And about if the Israeli want or don’t want, if they accept that they or their fathers or their grandfathers occupy the land that is not belonged to them, they should do agree to leave it.
And is the time ultimate healer? No. How was the relation between Israel and Iran 40 years ago and how is it now? How was the relation between Israel and Egypt 2 years a go and how it will be 2 years later? Israel in the ME is like a rotten tooth in the mouth. You can’t suffer its pain. You should pull it out.

 

[senojekips]

Or was forced there, what about the one's born there? I don't like what Israel is doing there as much as you do, but just ejecting a huge populace doesn't solve anything.

Are you trying to tell me that the current situation is solving something, or that confirming that Israel's theft of Palestinian land is legitimate will help the situation?

Think of all the other places of asylum who will have to face these challenges? Anyone want to volunteer? I believe once self interest takes over for the host countries the mentality of what to do with the Israelies would change right quickly.

You will have to explain what you mean here as I have no idea what you are trying to say, and I can see no connection whatsoever to our discussion

Also imagine how stunted or different our civilization would be today if every time a soceity took over another's territory they simpley pulled back on moral grounds, No empire's would have been forged, and you and I would not have enjoyed the lives we live today if everybody in this would of ours colored within the lines throughout the ages.

You are living in the past. In the times you are referring to there were no laws against this type of behaviour. In fact it was uncivilised behaviour such as you quote, that bought these present laws into being. It's a process called civilisation,... and it's supposed to move forwards, not stand still or go backwards such as you would have it.

I am not defending Israel, I am just saying, based off past experiances of our species what you are considering does not sit well with human habit and behaviour paterns which has in the past leaked into and will continue to leak into any agreement in this region of the world.

Once again you are talking about behaviour patterns that are long outdated and now illegal.

You can label this injustice, or immorality all day but when it comes down to it if you ask me it's just people being people, in that respect I am not surprised the situation is as it is.

Well if you wish to condone or ignore these injustices just because you think that they are just too hard to correct, you will have to learn to love a world where global terrorism is going to be the order of the day.

I think you'll find that your choice going to be a whole lot worse for you, your children and grandchildren, than the short term discomfort of correcting the wrongs of the past now.

 

[senojekips]

yes many of them moved away from europe after ww2. they didnt want to be anywhere near the place. also the israel believes that the Palestinians have a country of there own. called jordan. .

Did you ever stop to think that the Palestinian people who want their country back, never actually lived in the area now known as Jordan, they lived on the land now occupied by Israel.

So instead of having one lot of people p!ssed off about foreigners invading their country, you think that we're going to improve the situation by dragging the Jordanians into it and having a second fight on our hands?

It was stupidity such as this, that started this whole shitefite.

 

[RayManKiller3]

And is the time ultimate healer? No. How was the relation between Israel and Iran 40 years ago and how is it now? How was the relation between Israel and Egypt 2 years a go and how will be 2 years later? Israel in the ME is like a rotten tooth in the mouth. You can’t suffer its pain. You should pull it out.

I see we are getting no where on this. It seems you do not understand what I meant when I said "time is the ultimate healer". It do not mean healing will happen quickly.

I told you I don't recognize Israel as illegal and the fact it is a soveriegn state that is recognized by most of the international community means we can not do what you suggest legally anyways.

I find your last two sentences quite funny... That is what many westerners would say about the Arabic controlled countries in the M.E. I don't agree with such statements.

Remembering the past to avoid similar issues in the future is great, however, using the past to solve a problem do not always work out.

 

[RayManKiller3]

Well if you wish to condone or ignore these injustices just because you think that they are just too hard to correct, you will have to learn to love a world where global terrorism is going to be the order of the day.

I think you'll find that your choice going to be a whole lot worse for you, your children and grandchildren, than the short term discomfort of correcting the wrongs of the past now.

Would you stop with your fear mongering? I highly doubt global terrorism will end if we appease the Arabs on the situation with Israel. You seem to lack research on many of the Arab terrorist organizations and think Israel is the main and only goal of these organizations. This is false, Seno and even if appeasing the Arabs would end terrorism, I rather die fighting such cowardly tactics than living in fear and bowing to it.

There is a really simple (but long term) way to end this mess and that is education and lifting the standards of these countries. Once this occurs, terrorism will lower as well. We can just up security (which the world is already adapting to) to counter terrorism.

You have much more chance dying other ways than in a terror attack anyways.

While religion can be great, too much of it can be dangerous. Terrorism occured long before Israel was here anyways, the only difference is that they are able to spread it world wide via internet and fast travel.

 

[senojekips]

You have much more chance dying other ways than in a terror attack anyways.

Now we can see the type of "thinking" that the rest of the (sane) human race is up against. No wonder we are so fcuked up at the moment.

While much of the free world sacrifices the lives of their youngest and most valuable young adults, not to mention trillions of dollars spent trying to combat global terrorism, "Brains Trust" here, thinks that terrorism is not a great problem.

For once I'm actually lost for words. Well, at least I'm lost for words that will not get me banned for life. This idiot is a total waste of space in any sane society, to call him an idiot could be honestly judged as obscenely unfair to the world's worst idiots.

But I suppose I'm nearly as bad in some ways, I keep answering him,... I've gotta do something about that. What is it they say? "Never argue with idiots, they just drag you down to their level than beat you with their experience"?

 

[Yossarian]

Are you trying to tell me that the current situation is solving something, or that confirming that Israel's theft of Palestinian land is legitimate will help the situation?

No, but by the time you implement such drastic measures you may worsen the situation, then what, what do you do then? It may muttle this mess and only spread the problems of the situation in the first place to many many other countries. More so than it already is.

You will have to explain what you mean here as I have no idea what you are trying to say, and I can see no connection whatsoever to our discussion

By self interest, the populace, masses of Israeli immigrants caused hellacioius problems in the 1940s in Palestine, what would happen if an economiclly strained country in these times of stagnation now had to find a way to provide quality of life for large portion of immigrants?

Israel may not have to right to force people off their land, agreed, but who gives the world the right to chop them up now and force them onto other's lands?

Do not circumvent this question.

You are living in the past. In the times you are referring to there were no laws against this type of behaviour. In fact it was uncivilised behaviour such as you quote, that bought these present laws into being. It's a process called civilisation,... and it's supposed to move forwards, not stand still or go backwards such as you would have it.

As I would have? Am I a leader of state? What legistration or forced deployments can I order?

Also I don't know if you had observed but the 20th century was by far one of the most bloody in our civilizations history, Empire's where built and destroyed in short succession here.

Also the term empire holds more than military and geographical importance these days. A ecnomic and influencial means will forge them in this century, not weapons an jackboots.

Living in the past?, no I am mentioning that it has evolved into the 21st century, this is the order of the future.

Before you say this has nothing to do with Israel, it has EVERYTHING to do with Israel, from U.S. support to stem communist influence in the regions, to now the U.S. blind support of Israel as a launching point of covert means of stemming Iranian influence in the region.

NOTHING has changed, this still happens at this very moment. This region of the world in the center point of it's hemisphere in these terms.

Once again you are talking about behaviour patterns that are long outdated and now illegal.

Outdated? Have we evolved much? By this conversation alone, it shows just like the situation in this region that nothing is outdated. Also many of the greatest tradegies in human history, many in the last century alone were committed illiagally.

And even now, nations with huge economic needs and large defense establisments to support seek influence and domination of rights to resources and means of actions in this region of the world and the expoitation of many other regions.

That is happening today, on multiple continents. You don't waves of standing armies anymore to do this, that is why this exact region matters so much to so many people, and it's hard fought to stay in the same unresolved stagnated situation it is.

The ones who know don't care and the ones who care don't know.

I don't like, but I am pretty sure nobody gives a #(*$.

Well if you wish to condone or ignore these injustices just because you think that they are just too hard to correct, you will have to learn to love a world where global terrorism is going to be the order of the day.

So we give in to terroism now? Let's in the past tens years and see how well has that worked? This is exactly what this is, you can't circumvent this.

Yes it's injust, but spreading the unjustice around by forcing everybody to move and be broken up and pushed into other's borders only mulitplies this problem.

Why is nobody brave enough to Give Palestine a state and let the Israelies give back the land and have a one state together? Are we all so backwards that everybody believes it can only be one group of people here?

And you mention progess?

I think you'll find that your choice going to be a whole lot worse for you, your children and grandchildren, than the short term discomfort of correcting the wrongs of the past now.

Save a few, through 5 million into dispareity.

Job well done.

Just because I don't like what they are doing doesn't give anyone any right to such retribution.

Retribution leads to conflict.

Conflict to violence.

You have created a paradox for the continuation of these events.

 

[senojekips]

No, but by the time you implement such drastic measures you may worsen the situation, then what, what do you do then? It may muttle this mess and only spread the problems of the situation in the first place to many many other countries. More so than it already is.

You talk like you are from another planet, "the solution may worsen the situation". You are just making wild and stupid guesses, I'll bet you say, I won't get out of bed this morning, because I might be run over by a steam locomotive.

By self interest, the populace, masses of Israeli immigrants caused hellacioius problems in the 1940s in Palestine, what would happen if an economiclly strained country in these times of stagnation now had to find a way to provide quality of life for large portion of immigrants?

Israel may not have to right to force people off their land, agreed, but who gives the world the right to chop them up now and force them onto other's lands?

No, they can go back to their own lands, they are already living on someone else's land. You talk about the problems of the 1940's, I'm talking about the present and the future, you entirely neglect the fact that the placement of Israel on land that belongs to the Palestinian people is the cause of all of today's Global Islamic Terrorism. You don't mind them having to live like animals so the Israelis can have a "homeland" based on undemocratic and racist principles.

As I would have? Am I a leader of state? What legistration or forced deployments can I order?

Yes,... you are advocating these things, just as I would have the reverse, and I am not a leader of state. You live in a dream world it seems.

Also I don't know if you had observed but the 20th century was by far one of the most bloody in our civilizations history, Empire's where built and destroyed in short succession here.

Not that it has anything to do with the debate, tell us what great Empires have been forged in the 20th century. The bloodletting you talk of was mainly in an effort to prevent the formation of these wonderful "Empires" you talk of.

Living in the past?, no I am mentioning that it has evolved into the 21st century, this is the order of the future.

The future is only improved by correcting the errors of the past and not repeating them.

Before you say this has nothing to do with Israel, it has EVERYTHING to do with Israel, from U.S. support to stem communist influence in the regions, to now the U.S. blind support of Israel as a launching point of covert means of stemming Iranian influence in the region.

NOTHING has changed, this still happens at this very moment. This region of the world in the center point of it's hemisphere in these terms.

Don't even go there, with the exception of the cold war, US influence since the Korean war has been an unmitigated world wide disaster, supporting and fighting for some of the world's most despised regimes all in the name of US interests, Israel, Chile, Guatemala, Vietnam, Iran Iraq and now Afghanistan. If it were not for the US support of Israel, there is every chance that Iran would probably still be an ally of the US as would Iraq.

Outdated? Have we evolved much? By this conversation alone, it shows just like the situation in this region that nothing is outdated. Also many of the greatest tradegies in human history, many in the last century alone were committed illiagally.

And even now, nations with huge economic needs and large defense establisments to support seek influence and domination of rights to resources and means of actions in this region of the world and the expoitation of many other regions.

That is happening today, on multiple continents. You don't waves of standing armies anymore to do this, that is why this exact region matters so much to so many people, and it's hard fought to stay in the same unresolved stagnated situation it is.

The ones who know don't care and the ones who care don't know.

I don't like, but I am pretty sure nobody gives a #(*$.

I dunno what this little rant has to do with the current situation and because of it's wild spread of subject matter I'm not even going to attempt to answer it, it is not far from the ramblings of a drunk

So we give in to terroism now? Let's in the past tens years and see how well has that worked? This is exactly what this is, you can't circumvent this.

No we are trying to get rid of them out of Palestine as that is the cause of this mess, you state below that it is unjust yet you continue to support it, the whole issue is over injustice and the only cure is to correct the injustice

Why is nobody brave enough to Give Palestine a state and let the Israelies give back the land and have a one state together? Are we all so backwards that everybody believes it can only be one group of people here?

What are you talking about. It's not that no one is "brave" enough to give the Israelis a state , it's that there is no one other than themselves who genuinely believes they should have one. They are a religious group, which country do yo know of who would give away their best land so they could have a "homeland" I notice that the US has never offered them a state on US soil.

Save a few, through 5 million into dispareity.{/quote] I'll answer this when you tell me what you mean. There is no such word in the English language as "dispareity" and if you meant "disparity" the sentence is meaningless, as their is already a huge disparity, in fact it is one of the major causes of problems and the reason why no one could ever trust the Israelis. As for saving a "few", how do you claim this, how many are you talking about? Again you are quite happy to have the Palestinians who actually own the land removed or living like animals, but can't see why the Israelis should be made to give back land that does not belong to them.

Just because I don't like what they are doing doesn't give anyone any right to such retribution.

Retribution leads to conflict.

Conflict to violence.

You have created a paradox for the continuation of these events.

It's not "retribution" although with the way the Palestinians have been treated they should have every right to it.

I haven't created anything, all I want to see is justice, because this problem revolves around injustice and until it is fixed there will be no solution. People like yourself think that as a military super power you can just bully people into submission, but it would appear that when you took on the Palestinians, the Islamic world rallied to their cause and you have bitten off far more than you can chew. It has cost you how many thousand lives, and how many trillion dollars,... and the situation is every bit as bad as it's ever been with no solution even in sight. Your "solution" has changed the world for ever.

 

[RayManKiller3]

Now we can see the type of "thinking" that the rest of the (sane) human race is up against. No wonder we are so fcuked up at the moment.

While much of the free world sacrifices the lives of their youngest and most valuable young adults, not to mention trillions of dollars spent trying to combat global terrorism, "Brains Trust" here, thinks that terrorism is not a great problem.

For once I'm actually lost for words. Well, at least I'm lost for words that will not get me banned for life. This idiot is a total waste of space in any sane society, to call him an idiot could be honestly judged as obscenely unfair to the world's worst idiots.

But I suppose I'm nearly as bad in some ways, I keep answering him,... I've gotta do something about that. What is it they say? "Never argue with idiots, they just drag you down to their level than beat you with their experience"?

I didn't say it wasn't a great problem and if you stop twisting words you wouldn't have read it like that.

I don't even see why you bothered responding and called in an "answer", as you didn't answer anything. Considering all you do is insult those who disagree with you do not help your arguements. If you are frustrated then just block me because my position is not going to change, especially with such attitude. You and Hamid are the only opposite side opponents on this thread anyways.

 

[Yossarian]

Due to the aggressive demeanor of your replying tone, I fear that I will have to find another online forum to discuss this topic without such personal attacks and rewording of my statements.

Also any misspelled words are because of my refrainment of using spell check in an effort to improve my spelling and vocabulary through practice. I apologize for any misconceptions.

I ask kindly please, if you wish to state something I said incorrectly when it is stated otherwise in the very text box above you qouted.

Then I will be happy to carry on for such debate via PM. As it would be more appropriate.

I hope the best for the rest of you,

Happy posting.

 

[senojekips]

Due to the aggressive demeanor of your replying tone, I fear that I will have to find another online forum to discuss this topic without such personal attacks and rewording of my statements.

Also any misspelled words are because of my refrainment of using spell check in an effort to improve my spelling and vocabulary through practice. I apologize for any misconceptions.

I ask kindly please, if you wish to state something I said incorrectly when it is stated otherwise in the very text box above you qouted.

Then I will be happy to carry on for such debate via PM. As it would be more appropriate.

I hope the best for the rest of you,

Happy posting.

If you care to note the time I made the post, it was nearly 4:00am here and I'd just completed a marathon 9 hours, drawing up the new wiring and Plumbing plan for a two story hotel here in my home town, after 3 hours sleep and re-reading your post I'm totally surprised at my good humour and control.

In essence you admitted that Israel was in the wrong, but then you just went on a wild ramble trying to justify your own lack of care and understanding, and complete unwillingness to see yourself or anyone else admit the truth or do anything logical to try and rectify the matter.

Considering the content of your post, I'd say I exercised amazing self control.

 

[trailbrake2088]

I'm talking about the present and the future, you entirely neglect the fact that the placement of Israel on land that belongs to the Palestinian people is the cause of all of today's Global Islamic Terrorism.
This right here shows just how biased you are. Also how flawed your thinking is in my opinion. There is nothing I can say that you haven't already done for yourself in this paragraph.

 

[r.fox]

Did you ever stop to think that the Palestinian people who want their country back, never actually lived in the area now known as Jordan, they lived on the land now occupied by Israel.

So instead of having one lot of people p!ssed off about foreigners invading their country, you think that we're going to improve the situation by dragging the Jordanians into it and having a second fight on our hands?

yes but do you see the problems because most of the Palestinians want to move to the very homes that they had left between 1947-67. how unrealistic is that? most of those home have either been destroyed of have jewish occupants. and before you rage about how the Palestinians got forced out of there homes, most fled from the fighting to jordan OR stayed and got offered citizenship by the Israelies. the ones that left thought that the Israelis would be smashed by the Arabs. they only wanted to come back once that they reailsed that the Arabs were in no shape to beat thet living crap out of the Israelis and win. while the (egyptians anyway) Arabs showed in the you kipper war that they could catch the israelis on the hop, they couldn't beat them in the long run.

 

[RayManKiller3]

Considering the content of your post, I'd say I exercised amazing self control.

You really should start thinking your post through a little more. You accuse everyone who disagree of being immoral and wishing things that they do not really wish.

Example of your accusations:

Again you are quite happy to have the Palestinians who actually own the land removed or living like animals, but can't see why the Israelis should be made to give back land that does not belong to them.

We are all trying to discuss a solution to the current Palestinian-Israeli problem. The things you wish the west to do isn't even legal. You can not force a country to disappear. We are not ignoring the wrongs done by both Palestinians and Israelis to one another, just realizing a 1 state solution is pretty extreme and will not abolish the main problems (even cause more problems).

You require the Israelis to give the land back without answering the questions everyone is concerned with: "how are we going to do it?" and "what then?"

 

[senojekips]

yes but do you see the problems because most of the Palestinians want to move to the very homes that they had left between 1947-67. how unrealistic is that?.

and why shouldn't they? They are their homes and properties. The Jews had the right to go back to their properties that were lost in the nazi era. So it's not at all unrealistic at all , after all the Israelis were quite happy to move into them or bulldoze them in the absence of their legitimate owners. I didn't hear you complaining then?

You are another of these pro zionists who don't give a damn when something terrible is done to the Palestinians, yet you are the first to bellow when the Israelis are asked to make good their criminal activity and allow the Palestinians to regain what is rightfully theirs. Ohhh no,... it's not possible, it's all too hard.

It's OK for the Israelis to maintain a creeping process of theft and deliberate beating, harassment, starvation and murder of Palestinian women and children that is slowly stealing more and more Palestinian land, but you call it terrorism, when the Palestinians retaliate in the only ways they have available.

In your stupidly simplistic analysis of the Yom Kippur war you totally ignored the fact that the Israelis had had the benefit of of 20 years worth of US financial, and almost unlimited military aid, not to mention access to their intelligence and the supply of emergency weaponry at the time. Militarily the Gypos weren't fighting the Israelis, they were actually taking on the might of the US. Pull out the US aid to Israel and give it to the Egyptians, and I think you'll find that the outcome would have been vastly different.

 

[hamidreza]

If you were one of millions Palestinian refugees living in the camps, you wouldn’t accept even 1% of the things and solutions you are talking about Palestine now. Your opinions just erase the problem not solve it.