So why do people hate Israel?

[VDKMS]

I said that there were many communities, not that there were many synagogues.
And a Synagogue need not be a huge monumental building. It may be an old factory building.

Jews who live in these countries are allowed to practice their religion.

Algeria
Egypt
Iran
Iraq
Lebanon
Libya
Morocco
Syria
Tunisia
Yemen

Today, Iran's Jewish population is the second largest in the Middle East, after Israel. Although Jews are occasionally subjected to violence by Palestinian protesters in Syria, the government has taken strict protective measures, including arresting assailants and guarding the remaining synagogues.

Just a supplementary question
How many of you have traveled in the Middle East?

The problem is not the people but the fanatics. Unfortunately they have a strong influence in Israel and an even stronger one in the muslim countries in the ME.

I've never been in the Middle East but I did walk and shop in a muslim neighbourghood in Antwerp. The town is called Borgerhout but we call it Borgerocco because of the many Moroccans living there.

 

[senojekips]

According to DNA the origins of the people who lived in the Palestinian region came from India. There's also the theory that Jesus also came from India and that Christianity is a mix of Judaism and Hinduism.

If it is true, that still has no bearing on the fact that only a small part of today's Jews have a short and transitory connection with Palestine occurring not more than 3000 years ago.

And like everyone else in the world, had they have only been absent for a single generation they would have no claim to Palestine, the same as you and I have no claim the the lands of our ancestors.

 

[VDKMS]

If it is true, that still has no bearing on the fact that only a small part of today's Jews have a short and transitory connection with Palestine occurring not more than 3000 years ago.

And like everyone else in the world, had they have only been absent for a single generation they would have no claim to Palestine, the same as you and I have no claim the the lands of our ancestors.

There is only one earth and we all live on it. All ancestors propably came from another region.

In the past the strongest ruled, now it's rule of law.
In the past someone could claim the land was his until someone killed him or chased him away and then the other had it.
Now you need an official document to prove the land is yours and only the government can take it away if their laws allow it to.
Rule of law determines who's property it is, not ancestry.
Rule of law determines who's property it is, not your opinion.

 

[senojekips]

There is only one earth and we all live on it. All ancestors propably came from another region.

In the past the strongest ruled, now it's rule of law.
In the past someone could claim the land was his until someone killed him or chased him away and then the other had it.
Now you need an official document to prove the land is yours and only the government can take it away if their laws allow it to.
Rule of law determines who's property it is, not ancestry.
Rule of law determines who's property it is, not your opinion.

Again you very conveniently ignore the fact that we have already shown that Native people do not need "paperwork" to prove ownership, and similarly your whole argument is based on false premise.

It still comes back to my statement, "Like everyone else in the world, had they have only been absent for a single generation they would have no claim to Palestine, the same as you and I have no claim the the lands of our ancestors"

 

[VDKMS]

Again you very conveniently ignore the fact that we have already shown that Native people do not need "paperwork" to prove ownership, and similarly your whole argument is based on false premise.

It still comes back to my statement, "Like everyone else in the world, had they have only been absent for a single generation they would have no claim to Palestine, the same as you and I have no claim the the lands of our ancestors"

"Native people do not need "paperwork" to prove ownership" is history. Rule of law changed all that. "Palestinians" are not native people, just as the British, Americans, Belgians, Germans .... are not native people.

Your statement is wrong. If an ancestor of the 17th century had ownership in Palestine and now someone living today in Argentina can show that he inherit it, it's his. Rule of law.

 

[Yossarian]

"Native people do not need "paperwork" to prove ownership" is history. Rule of law changed all that. "Palestinians" are not native people, just as the British, Americans, Belgians, Germans .... are not native people.

Your statement is wrong. If an ancestor of the 17th century had ownership in Palestine and now someone living today in Argentina can show that he inherit it, it's his. Rule of law.

This is a paradox,

As is whatever your nemisis in this thread will throw at you. Fact is, just because you can prove something, does not mean you can just have it.

Native Americans had rights to this land I am sitting on right now. But my ancestors with no moral attachtment declared rights to this land and evicted them by brutal force at the turn of the 19th century, one Manifest Destiny later and a whole country was missing from them.

The tale is timeless, the U.S. goverment made legal appropraitions to take what they wanted and needed to feed a growing economy, when they broke their own laws they simply relegistrated new ones absolving them of any wrong doing, all legally.

You can legalize anything. As long as it's sits on what is widely acceptible in the eyes of the dominant influences in the world at the time. Right now it's the Israeli/ U.S. dogma. This may not stay this way, but at this point in time it is the dominant influence for the circuits of western society and is broadcast to the world.

Point is, blessings and atrocities alike are committed under "rule of law"

Greed, Jealousy, paranoia are human pyschological factors, and these things leak into our legistration even today.

Like I said, you can legalize anything. We even legalize and illegialize "right" and "wrong".

 

[senojekips]

"Palestinians" are not native people,

Unfortunately for you, they are recognised as such by the rest of the world.

Australian Aboriginals were preceeded by a group known as the Lake Mungo people a much older and genetically different race, however today's Aboriginals are still recognised as the "Native People" because there are no longer and discernible Lake Mungo people remaining.

 

[VDKMS]

This is a paradox,

As is whatever your nemisis in this thread will throw at you. Fact is, just because you can prove something, does not mean you can just have it.

Yes it does. If you have legal documents that prove the property is yours, it is yours.

Native Americans had rights to this land I am sitting on right now. But my ancestors with no moral attachtment declared rights to this land and evicted them by brutal force at the turn of the 19th century, one Manifest Destiny later and a whole country was missing from them.

You cannot look at history with the eyes of today. Today it is regarded as wrong what your ancestors did. In their time it was normal. How could they know that the land they started building on belonged to a native indian tribe? No borders. Native indians tribes regularly fought each other about hunting grounds. Who owned what depended on force, not rule of law.

The tale is timeless, the U.S. goverment made legal appropraitions to take what they wanted and needed to feed a growing economy, when they broke their own laws they simply relegistrated new ones absolving them of any wrong doing, all legally.

Almost all borders on the planet are drawn through wars. Does that mean that all borders are illegal? And if so, who has the authority to draw new ones. No matter where you draw them families and friends will be separated.

You can legalize anything. As long as it's sits on what is widely acceptible in the eyes of the dominant influences in the world at the time. Right now it's the Israeli/ U.S. dogma. This may not stay this way, but at this point in time it is the dominant influence for the circuits of western society and is broadcast to the world.

In the last few centuries western style rule of law is being accepted all over the world. Rule of law is a foundation of a society. It is not perfect and changes are constantly made. A judge decides according to laws drawn up by the government and not a king or cleric who uses his own judgement as he pleases. The Arab countries have a lot of work to do to catch up on the Israeli rule of law.

Point is, blessings and atrocities alike are committed under "rule of law"

I agree, that's why I said rule of law is not perfect. The Germans used it to kill the Jews. The Arab countries used it to expell the Jews. The Israelis used it to keep properties in Jewish hands and to occupy non-Israeli land. Wars or international pressure can and sometimes did change that.

Greed, Jealousy, paranoia are human pyschological factors, and these things leak into our legistration even today.

True. Politicians are like sharks. They rule. But there are also people who fight against it and they are sometimes victorious and rule of law is changed for the better.

Like I said, you can legalize anything. We even legalize and illegialize "right" and "wrong".

If nothing would be legalized who then has the authority to separate right from wrong? You? I? Someone else?

 

[VDKMS]

Unfortunately for you, they are recognised as such by the rest of the world.

No they are not. The West Bank plus Gaza is recognised by seperate countries as a Palestinian State.

Have a look at the common names of "Palestinians" and you'll know where they came from.

Australian Aboriginals were preceeded by a group known as the Lake Mungo people a much older and genetically different race, however today's Aboriginals are still recognised as the "Native People" because there are no longer and discernible Lake Mungo people remaining.

C

Comparing Palestinians and Aboriginals is like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[senojekips]

No they are not. The West Bank plus Gaza is recognised by seperate countries as a Palestinian State.

Which has no bearing whatsoever on my statement, that the Palestinians are still recognised as the Native people of the area.

Comparing Palestinians and Aboriginals is like comparing apples and oranges.

Not true. They are both regarded as the native people and carry genetic material from the earliest people of the area, having lived continuously in their respective areas through to the present day.

 

[RayManKiller3]

Which has no bearing whatsoever on my statement, that the Palestinians are still recognised as the Native people of the area.

So then what is the point of saying they are recognized by other nations as native people? Israel is a recognized soveriegn government by a lot of nations. Only muslim nations and friends (or enemies of the west/U.S) of muslim nations do not recognize it.

Are you saying just because something is recognized, it must be true?

Not true. They are both regarded as the native people and carry genetic material from the earliest people of the area, having lived continuously in their respective areas through to the present day.

I disagree, they are apples and oranges. Only certain things are similar between them.

 

[senojekips]

Are you saying just because something is recognized, it must be true?

No,... I never said that, nor implied it, you did.
I said that it is recognised because it is true, not the reverse

What you don't realise as an American is that if the US was to withdraw their support of Israel tomorrow, Israel's recognition would dissipate faster than a fart in a hurricane

 

[RayManKiller3]

No,... I never said that, nor implied it, you did.
I said that it is recognised because it is true, not the reverse

Making sure that is not what you were trying to say.

What you don't realise as an American is that if the US was to withdraw their support of Israel tomorrow, Israel's recognition would dissipate faster than a fart in a hurricane

Maybe, I find your metaphor pretty funny though lol.


I am going to go back to sitting at the sidelines, watching you two do your thing.

 

[Yossarian]

Making sure that is not what you were trying to say.




Maybe, I find your metaphor pretty funny though lol.


I am going to go back to sitting at the sidelines, watching you two do your thing.

Here I will clear seat for you,

Popcorn is almost done as well.

 

[VDKMS]

Which has no bearing whatsoever on my statement, that the Palestinians are still recognised as the Native people of the area.

And where do the "native" people living just accros the border in Jordan belong to? Jordan or Palestine? Do you remember who draw that border?

Not true. They are both regarded as the native people and carry genetic material from the earliest people of the area, having lived continuously in their respective areas through to the present day.

All aboriginals come from the same place, Palestinians don't. A lot of them came from Arab countries. Look at their names and you'll know where they came from.
BTW the Jews are as native as your Palestinians according to your statement.

 

[benaakatz]

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world...jews-are-a-race-says-genetics-expert-1.428664

sorry,, but jews are a people. sand's book is hogwash

 

[senojekips]

And where do the "native" people living just accros the border in Jordan belong to? Jordan or Palestine? Do you remember who draw that border?

The Jordanians have their country, they have no foreign occupier, treating them like animals and stealing their land, beating and killing anyone who resists.

All aboriginals come from the same place, Palestinians don't. A lot of them came from Arab countries. Look at their names and you'll know where they came from.
BTW the Jews are as native as your Palestinians according to your statement.

Who said all Aboriginals came from the same place? If you want to go down that road, everyone on earth came from the same place.
The Jews can't be "native", as has been pointed out several times. approximately 94% of them are European occupiers, or their descendants, The few descendants of those who never left do have legitimacy, other than that the remainder are just thieves.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world...jews-are-a-race-says-genetics-expert-1.428664

sorry,, but jews are a people. sand's book is hogwash

Even Rabbinical scholars will tell you that Jews are not a Race. They are a cultural group based on religion.

There is a simple proof of this. "race" is genetic, you can't change your race, e.g. I can't elect to be a Negro or Asian, but anyone can become a Jew.

From Judaism 101

In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws. Their reasoning: at the time these laws were passed, people routinely spoke of the "Jewish race" or the "Italian race" as well as the "Negro race," so that is what the legislators intended to protect.
But many Jews were deeply offended by that decision, offended by any hint that Jews could be considered a race. The idea of Jews as a race brings to mind nightmarish visions of Nazi Germany, where Jews were declared to be not just a race, but an inferior race that had to be rounded up into ghettos and exterminated like vermin.
But setting aside the emotional issues, Jews are clearly not a race.

 

[VDKMS]

The Jordanians have their country, they have no foreign occupier, treating them like animals and stealing their land, beating and killing anyone who resists.

You seem to forget that Jordan once annexed the West Bank and later renounced it and threw the Palestinians (PLO) out of Jordan. Why is it that Jordanians are allowed to expell Palestinians and Israelis are not?

Israel only occupies a part of the West Bank and this was agreed by the Palestinians in the peace accords of Oslo.

Who said all Aboriginals came from the same place? If you want to go down that road, everyone on earth came from the same place.
The Jews can't be "native", as has been pointed out several times. approximately 94% of them are European occupiers, or their descendants, The few descendants of those who never left do have legitimacy, other than that the remainder are just thieves.

Over 70% of the Jews in Israel are born there. Most of their ancesters immigrated legally and got their citizenships legally, just as immigrating Arabs. Both during the Ottoman Empire and the British mandate, and of course once Israel was founded.
Someone who aquires a property legally is not a thief.

Even Rabbinical scholars will tell you that Jews are not a Race. They are a cultural group based on religion.

There is a simple proof of this. "race" is genetic, you can't change your race, e.g. I can't elect to be a Negro or Asian, but anyone can become a Jew.

From Judaism 101

So you agree that this "Palestinian" conflict is about religion.
Either the Jews are not a race and it is all about religion or they are a race and your opinion is wrong.

I think you did not read benaakatz link.

 

[senojekips]

You seem to forget that Jordan once annexed the West Bank and later renounced it and threw the Palestinians (PLO) out of Jordan. Why is it that Jordanians are allowed to expell Palestinians and Israelis are not?

In case you haven't noticed the Jordanians have gone home and left the Palestinians to do as they want.

Israel only occupies a part of the West Bank and this was agreed by the Palestinians in the peace accords of Oslo.

Under duress,...

Over 70% of the Jews in Israel are born there. Most of their ancesters immigrated legally and got their citizenships legally, just as immigrating Arabs. Both during the Ottoman Empire and the British mandate, and of course once Israel was founded.
Someone who aquires a property legally is not a thief.

No, You do not own acquired property if it is stolen, doing it knowingly is an even greater crime.

So you agree that this "Palestinian" conflict is about religion.
Either the Jews are not a race and it is all about religion or they are a race and your opinion is wrong.

Only for the Israelis, it must be so, as they have no other reason to invade and occupy the land of another people.

 

[VDKMS]

In case you haven't noticed the Jordanians have gone home and left the Palestinians to do as they want.

The Jordanians haven't forgotten september 1970 when the PLO wanted more say in Jordan. The result was that the PLO was kicked out of Jordan and fled to Libanon where they had to flee again because of the Israeli invasion because of the terrorist attacks. The PLO fled to Tunesia.
Even today Palestinians are not welcome in Jordan. 100.000 Syrian refugees are in Jordan, but 1.000 Palestinians were not allowed to enter.

There are only two places where Palestinians are tolerated. The Palestinian Territories and Israel. In other countries most of them live in refugee camps.

Under duress,...

which Arafat agreed. The duress is because they have to, not because they wish to.

No, You do not own acquired property if it is stolen, doing it knowingly is an even greater crime.

True, but they didn't steal it, they bought it. Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco did after Israel was declared a state in 1948.

Only for the Israelis, it must be so, as they have no other reason to invade and occupy the land of another people.

It is time that you learn the difference between an invasion (Arab invasions of Israel - multiple times) and legal immigration in the Ottoman Empire and British Mandate.