So why do people hate Israel? - Page 164




 
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December 31st, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Part two:



Palestinian rule : O years.
You either divide the occupation years into religious rulers: Jewish, Muslim, Christian and Pagan, meaning the pagans win hands down.

Or you devide the occupation into societies or countries and you must split the Muslim rulers into Arabs, Kurds, Turks and others. Or you must admit that it IS about religion and then the Pagans were first, but they don't exist anymore. next are the Jews then the Christians and last the Muslims.
Well ok the Pagans can have it then, anyone have the email address for the Wiccans just incase the Pagans don't want it?

What a New Years gift, Palestine.
Maybe we could help out with transport, a few clapped out boats to take the Israelis back to Europe and sink themselves on the shoreline to prevent return that way they can say they came home the same way they left Europe by forcing themselves on a local population.


Modern Pagan Religions Now Over 80k in England and Wales

Jason Pitzl-Waters — December 11, 2012 — 14 Comments


When the religion data for the 2001 census of England and Wales was released, modern Pagans made news as their combined number (around 42,000) made them the seventh largest religious group in the UK. Since then, many, including historian Ronald Hutton, maintained that the number was potentially far larger than that.
Pagans at Stonehenge.
“Ten years ago 42,000 people declared themselves as Pagans – the seventh highest number for any UK religion – but some experts believe the true figure was nearer 250,000 – and is significantly higher now.”
So, Pagans in Britain launched the “Pagan-Dash” campaign to help unify the count in 2011, and encourage more Pagans to participate truthfully in the religion question. Now, initial 2011 religion figures for England and Wales have been released, and while the numbers haven’t exploded into the hundreds of thousands, adherents to some form of modern Paganism has nearly doubled in the last ten years. Depending on how forgiving you want to be as to which groups are “Pagan” in some form, they now number over 80,000. In addition, the base number of people identifying as “Pagan” shot up to nearly 60,000.
Here are the relevant raw numbers for England and Wales:
Animism: 541
Druid: 4,189
Heathen: 1,958
Occult: 502
Pagan: 56,620
Pantheism: 2,216
Reconstructionist: 251
Shamanism: 650
Thelemite: 184
Wicca:11,766
Witchcraft: 1,276
Bringing to just over 80,000 (or so) Pagans. That number doesn’t count how many Pagans there might be lurking within the category of “Mixed Religon” (23,566), “Own Belief System” (1,949), or “Spiritual” (13,832). Other figures of note in the “Other Religion” category include Vodoun at 208, Traditional African Religion at 588 (both numbers that I think are too low), and New Age at 698 adherents.
These figures point to some success for the Pagan Dash campaign, though they were not the far larger estimates many were hoping for. Still, this shows encouraging growth for modern Paganism in England and Wales in an increasing post-Christian Britain. According to the Office for National Statistics, Christianity in England and Wales has dropped considerably, while the number of people claiming “no religion” (the “nones”) have, just like their American cousins, grown considerably.
“Compared with the 2001 Census the most significant trends were an increase in the population reporting no religion – from 14.8 per cent of the population in 2001 to 25.1 per cent in 2011, a drop in the population reporting to be Christian – from 71.7 per cent in 2001 to 59.3 per cent in 2011, and an increase in all other main religions. The number of Muslims increased the most from 3.0 per cent in 2001 to 4.8 per cent in 2011.”
In short, every religion, and “no religion” are on the rise, while Christianity has dropped precipitously. At this rate, it’s very likely that Christianity could lose their majority over the next decade. What these demographic shifts mean for the UK, and for the modern Pagans living there, mean remains to be seen, but it will certainly become increasingly hard to ignore non-Christian voices if these trends continue. I hope to get comments from Pagan groups in the UK on these numbers soon.

http://wildhunt.org/2012/12/modern-p...and-wales.html

Quote:
You made this up?
On the contrary while the comment was a bit obtuse the principle remains that they believe between 1000 and 900BCE Jerusalem was not a major centre in the region it was populated but it was far from a the capital of an empire but rather a back water settlement.

Here is what Israel Finkelstein has to say on the matter:
Quote:
During David's time, as Finkelstein casts it, Jerusalem was little more than a "hill-country village," David himself a raggedy upstart akin to Pancho Villa, and his legion of followers more like "500 people with sticks in their hands shouting and cursing and spitting—not the stuff of great armies of chariots described in the text.

Quote:
Anyway, when we are talking about who owns the house then it is definitely not the one who lived there the most but the one who lived there first. Since the original ones are gone, it's the next in line, the Jews.

I wish both of you a happy and healthy 2014!
Ah yes that old argument who says the original owners are gone certainly not your DNA evidence as that says Palestinians were descended from same lines as the Jews, therefore the argument remains:
Who owns the house:
A) The ones that lived in it for 3000+ years and remained in it the entire time despite changing faiths at least a couple of times.
B) Those who never lived in it at all but who's distant ancestors "may" have and figured that by manufacting an unverifiable history gives them squatters rights.

Given that your evidence justifies group A as does the archeological evidence I can only assume it is only personal or financial biases leading you to back group B.

So do you have any other arguments or are you going to stick to biblical fairy stories and ignore the physical realities of scientific evidence?
December 31st, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
And why must the Jews give proof of their historical claim
For someone who allegedly "talks a lot of rubbish blahblahblah",... I see you still haven't been able to disprove what I've said.

The Israelis don't have to prove their "Historical" claim, they my wish they could, but that is impossible for a number of reasons, for a start the people we are dealing with today have no claim to anything they are Europeans of Khazar descendancy. Just because the adherents of religion that they adopted falsely claimed to have been told by "their" god that they had a claim to a land. It has all the legality and logic of the Pope's decree that I will go to hell because I'm not a christian

Had these people actually been the genuine descendants of the Israelites they still would have had no claim just as I have no claim to the places my ancestors lived 2000 years ago, or even 30 years ago if it comes to that.

So far, your alleged argument is dead and buried, with your so called religious "evidence" now busily digging it's grave even deeper. All that remains of it, is your obstinacy to admit the truth, as a result of which I come to the conclusion that you are no more than an Israeli shill desperate to lay claim to something even you know you have no right to. Or are you one of those Hasbara Trolls who is actually paid?
January 1st, 2014  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Yep, that's a small part of it I tried to read the whole report and must admit that much of the deeper material went right over my head,... even though references to other supporting works were there. The fact being that I never had the time nor inclination to read them as with the work having had a number of favourable peer reviews by persons and groups much more knowledgeable than I am, I accepted that what was said was the truth or as near to it as one could get.

The Addendum with all of the diagrams and graphical representations took more time than enough.

Perhaps had I have been one of those knowledgeable enough in their respective fields to make a valued judgement I would have followed up all the links and references. In short there was plenty of easily available and understandable info there to make it more than credible.

I did particularly like the fact that it vindicated virtually all of the earlier work by Shlomo Sand, whose book was very controversial, but in fact no one had been able to significantly disprove. My main reason for liking that book was that unlike so much other research, it's findings were logical and debunked the religious claptrap.
Well having finally read the paper it is hard to fault his methodology obviously I know nothing of the technical aspects of his work so I can't comment on it but I can comment on methodology which is robust and to his credit he does point out his weak points primarily that there are no ancient Judeans or Khazars to draw DNA from so it works against both sides of the argument.

The interesting thing is that he has said that his sample pool was too small and as such has begun the Jewish Genome Challenge to expand his work and give him the data he needs.
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January 1st, 2014  
senojekips
 
 
To me one of the more interesting parts of this shitefite is that Elhaik's major detractors have denied the legitimacy of Elhaiks work, yet refused to be interviewed, and Ostrer himself has refused to allow others to view his work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by failedmessiah.com

An Israeli researcher alleges that a Yeshiva University professor manipulated data to reach the “false” conclusion that Ashkenazi Jews have a predominantly Middle Eastern genetic origin when in fact their genetic signature is predominantly from the Caucus region of northeast Asia. And even though this Israeli researcher published his study debunking Ostrer and other geneticists more than 6 months ago, none of them will respond to the questions about their work.


The Forward has a report on Israeli researcher Eran Elhaik's 2012 study, “The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses,” on the origin of Ashkenazi Jews. Elhaik found that previous studies were flawed and contradicted each other and was able to use their data and create a hypothesis that rectified them, and only then the data matched.

Unfortunately for many of us, what Elhaik may have proved is that most Ashkenazi Jews are descended from converts to Judaism – the Khazars.

Elhaik also believes that some of these earlier studies were conducted by scientists who intentionally cooked the books to get the results they wanted – that Ashkenazi Jews predominantly have a Middle Eastern origin – rather than the results that are actually true – that we do not.
Most prominent among those scientists Elhaik believes to be dishonest is Harry Ostrer is a professor of pathology and genetics at Yeshiva University’s Albert Einstein College of Medicine and the author of “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People,” which was published last year.
But Ostrer and other geneticists refused to talk on the record about Elhaik or his study, and none of them responded in peer reviewed academic journals where letters and brief comments are published without having to go through the time-consuming peer review process.
Now, more six months after Elhaik's study was first published (the official publication date was in December, but the paper was released in digital form before that), Ostrer is still refusing to talk and has not answer Elhaik's paper or Elhaik's allegations. And this, published in the Forward today, may be why:
…But opponents of the Rhineland Hypothesis also have a political agenda, [Eran Elhaik] said, claiming they “were motivated to justify the Zionist narrative.”
To illustrate his point, Elhaik swivels his chair around to face his computer and calls up a 2010 email exchange with Ostrer.
“It was a great pleasure reading your group’s recent paper, ‘Abraham’s Children in the Genome Era,’ that illuminate[s] the history of our people,” Elhaik wrote to Ostrer. “Is it possible to see the data used for the study?”
Ostrer replied that the data are not publicly available.
“It is possible to collaborate with the team by writing a brief proposal that outlines what you plan to do,” he wrote. “Criteria for reviewing include novelty and strength of the proposal, non-overlap with current or planned activities, and non-defamatory nature toward the Jewish people.” That last requirement, Elhaik argues, reveals the bias of Ostrer and his collaborators.
Allowing scientists access to data only if their research will not defame Jews is “peculiar,” said Catherine DeAngelis, who edited the Journal of the American Medical Association for a decade. “What he does is set himself up for criticism: What’s this guy trying to hide?”…
January 1st, 2014  
MontyB
 
 
As I said previously the part about not releasing his data is a big red flag, I am not going to defend Ostrer's work but I do think it fair to say that Elhaik's work is not complete either.

I notice his Jewish Genome Challenge ended on the 1st of November so the updated report should be available in a few months.
January 1st, 2014  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
As I said previously the part about not releasing his data is a big red flag, I am not going to defend Ostrer's work but I do think it fair to say that Elhaik's work is not complete either.
Most certainly this work is not complete, and could go on for many years, but at least I feel that it is now headed in the right direction with several major works that have been approached from completely different angles and without collaboration, having mutually supporting outcomes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I notice his Jewish Genome Challenge ended on the 1st of November so the updated report should be available in a few months.
With the so called major "researchers" that oppose Elhaik's finding not willing to open their work for public or private scrutiny he may have had great difficulty in finding a credible challenger.
January 1st, 2014  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Most certainly this work is not complete, and could go on for many years, but at least I feel that it is now headed in the right direction with several major works that have been approached from completely different angles and without collaboration, the findings of which are for the most part mutually supporting.
The problem is that even if he does prove his point what does it solve?
I tend to feel that all of this work to prove something that should have been determined 70 years will come too late to solve the problem especially in the case of the Palestinians and in essence it plays into the hands of Zionist aims 50 years from now I would hate to be in a position where you have Israel admitting that they really have no justification for their actions but since the Palestinians have been wiped out we will just have to live with the guilt oh and by the way I think I remember god promising us half of Jordan as well.

Despite what VD says this is not about religion it is about lebensraum and it wont end at the Jordanian borders.

Quote:
With the so called major "researchers" that oppose Elhaik's finding not willing to open their work for public or private scrutiny he may have had difficulty in finding a credible challenger.
Credible challengers maybe but there will still be challengers because no matter how much proof you roll out or how inane the opposing claims may be people will still believe what they want to believe especially if it is in their own best interests to do so.

Religion is a classic example of this as it has infected the world for thousands of years despite being based on little more than dreams, fairy tales, fear and xenophobia, it is clearly the man made construct of power hungry minds yet the world is still inflicted by those too weak to stand on their own two feet and dispose of the dogma in promotes and it doesn't matter what you show them or how ludicrous the belief they carry on hiding behind faith.
January 2nd, 2014  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
The problem is that even if he does prove his point what does it solve?
It might save "history" from propagating a lie for a start, that would be good, and although it may be too late for the Palestinian cause, their plight may lead to Israel being made an official Pariah state and left to wither on the vine. Trying to foresee the future and second guess it is even more futile than ignoring the past and present.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Despite what VD says this is not about religion it is about lebensraum and it wont end at the Jordanian borders.
There is little doubt that you are correct, but so long as US taxpayers refuse to open their eyes to the facts and allow US politicians to bought off by organisations like AIPAC. The other thing is the US power of Veto in the UN must be removed. The single largest problem is worldwide public apathy for the whole issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Credible challengers maybe but there will still be challengers because no matter how much proof you roll out or how inane the opposing claims may be people will still believe what they want to believe especially if it is in their own best interests to do so.
People like VD and his Hasbara Troll mates would deny their own existence if it suited them, and as a result not a word they say can be believed

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Religion is a classic example of this as it has infected the world for thousands of years despite being based on little more than dreams, fairy tales, fear and xenophobia, it is clearly the man made construct of power hungry minds yet the world is still inflicted by those too weak to stand on their own two feet and dispose of the dogma in promotes and it doesn't matter what you show them or how ludicrous the belief they carry on hiding behind faith.
Yep,... as I quoted earlier, "Faith is what remains when all the facts and logic fail to support your views".
January 2nd, 2014  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
There is little doubt that you are correct, but so long as US taxpayers refuse to open their eyes to the facts and allow US politicians to bought off by organisations like AIPAC. The other thing is the US power of Veto in the UN must be removed. The single largest problem is worldwide public apathy for the whole issue.
To be fair it isn't just the US power of veto that needs to be removed but the ability to veto full stop.

I am still convinced that the key is to remove veto and expand the security council, add to this the abilty of the General Assembly to over ride the security council with a two thirds majority and I think you would see a more representitive UN.

I am not so sure it is worldwide public apathy that is the problem either as up until recent years the western world has been indoctrinated into believing that western=better, Middle Eastern=terrorist and before someone jumps up and down saying it is Muslim=terrorist it isn't as no one is thinking of an Asian when they refer to Islamic terrorism they see an Arab.

It has only been in the last few years that this view has begun to change as the general public of western nations have begun to realise the effects of meddling in the affairs of those we believe we are better than.
January 2nd, 2014  
Yossarian
 
 
Or that Israel = Good guys who are our friends.

So obviously it makes sense to "donate" 20 Stealth fighters to an nation who uses white phosphorus at will.

Apathy in this case of our citizenry is deadly.
 


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