So why do people hate Israel? - Page 155




 
--
 
November 26th, 2013  
BritinBritain
 
 
To be honest Spike I can't be bothered with the man, no matter what evidence is produced he will says its a fake, western or Palestinian propaganda or some other bullsh!te.

As I have said before I don't like anyone getting hurt, maimed or killed, but I seriously hope one day the Israelis get a taste of their own medicine and get a damn good hiding.
November 26th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
To be honest Spike I can't be bothered with the man, no matter what evidence is produced he will says its a fake, western or Palestinian propaganda or some other bullsh!te.

As I have said before I don't like anyone getting hurt, maimed or killed, but I seriously hope one day the Israelis get a taste of their own medicine and get a damn good hiding.
First of all I'd like to see idiots like VD get theirs. Wouldn't there be a fuss then?

It's animals like him that has led to Jews per se, being despised and distrusted everywhere they have gone for the last 2000 years, these are the people totally responsible for the growing tide of world wide anti Semitism. They know it but can't help themselves, they annoy the bear until they get mauled just so they can play the victim card,... as they know they have absolutely nothing else.
November 26th, 2013  
VDKMS
 
I'm having a really good time here. Thanks folks!

So far no one was able to disprove the facts I gave. That's why they try it with insults, change the subject or ridicule it.

Seno, if you don't know how a court works then don't try to be the smart guy. An unknown picture won't be accepted as evidence in court.

Let's show something you posted thinking it was against the Jews. I'm talking about your post #1510 you highlited this :

Quote:
...while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced...
It's from ART. 6. of the Palestine Mandate (Geneve , aug 12 1922)

The King Crane Commission has something similar (aug 29 , 1919)

Quote:
"it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine"
But the text originates from Statement of the Zionist Organization regarding Palestine. (feb 3 1919)

Art 5.I. says:

Quote:
...nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine...
Instead of generalizing exceptions you'd better stay with the facts. Wishful thinking also doesn't change the facts. No matter how hard you try.

I'm not a self proven Israeli Hasbara Troll. I know who I am and you are far from the truth (like always). Like I said, wishful thinking won't change the facts.
--
November 26th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I'm having a really good time here. Thanks folks!

So far no one was able to disprove the facts I gave. That's why they try it with insults, change the subject or ridicule it.
Well to be fair it is hard to disprove what you say because you simply deny anything that contradicts what you say.

As I recall I started my involvement in this discussion by talking about DNA and you responded with a report showing 80% of Ashkenazi Jews had a DNA link to the region but you declined to accept that the report also said 80% of Asians and Europeans also had the same gene and 70% of Palestinians also carry the gene which shows a connection to the region as far back as 3000 years.

I also notice that you did not mention all the other enthnic Jewish groups just the ones from the German area.

What your report really shows is that the Jews in Israel today are those that left the region for upwards of a millenium and that those Palestinians that you keep claiming don't exist are infact the decendants of those who stayed in the region and converted to Islam at some point in the past.

I would argue that based on that information alone Palestinians are the true inhabitants of the region based on both history, dna and continuous occupation where as those Jews that have moved there since are nothing more than European colonisers whos ancestors once lived in the region thousands of years ago but abandoned the region for whatever reason.

As far as legal arguements go I would suggest that the legal borders of Israel stop at the 1947 demarcation lines and everything outside that is land taken in conquest which is not legally binding under article 2 paragraph 4 of the 1945 UN charter...
Quote:
Article 2. The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.
  • Paragraph 4. All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
Now we could also get into a discussion on the whole ethnic clensing thing and I am sure you would push the case that Palestinians were not forced off their lands despite evidence to the contrary and just for the sake of argument I will accept it (even though I don't) the fact is that international law allows for the right of refugees to return once the area is secure, not only does Israel refuse this they have colonised the area so they can't return.


Now lets be honest I can go on and on about Israels crimes and you will respond with a long winded mostly irrelevant response that amounts to "No" so I will cut to the chase...


Have you ever considered that the reason that people do not like Israel is that people like you make such poor cases in their defense people like myself can find so many holes in your story that even those who once supported you now think where there is smoke there is fire?


But no matter how you look at it in the end I don't like Israel because it is a nation that has done nothing positive for the world and instead brought suffering and misery to millions for no good reason other than ideological nonsense and an over inflated sense of entitlement.


In closing I would suggest that my very limited exposure to Palestinians show me a very resilient and amazing adaptive people, my limited exposure to Israelis is mixed on one hand I have met some that show me peace is possible yet I have met others that made me think kindly of Hamas but in the end I can honestly say if Israel were to evaporate tomorrow I would not shed a tear.
November 26th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I'm having a really good time here. Thanks folks!

So far no one was able to disprove the facts I gave. That's why they try it with insults, change the subject or ridicule it.
You neglect to mention that no one can disprove your facts because you haven't given any. Just hand picked snippets with nothing considered in it's entirety.

The very fact that you must mention "You are having fun" tells me (and everyone else) that in fact, you are feeling the heat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I'm not a self proven Israeli Hasbara Troll. I know who I am and you are far from the truth (like always). Like I said, wishful thinking won't change the facts.
Tell me then, If what you say were true, why would I "wish" you to be a Hasbara Troll?

Actually,.... if it came down to to what I "wish",... I'd wish you that were a Palestinian peasant in the occupied Terrortories.

Like all of your kind, you really have no idea at all, of how those other than your own claque think, a fact that has been painfully apparent all though this discussion. Not only, don't you know how others think, like all self centred Zionazi thugs you don't care. You feel that you and your toxic "cause" are the only things in the world worth consideration. The fact being, that you are no more than a greedy, self centred, uncaring cnut.

I haven't actually "wished" anything, it is you who has clearly demonstrated that you are a Hasbara Troll by your loud and long support of the World's fourth most despised state, a state that has been officially declared a Pariah state by most of the world's community for the last 45 years.
Quote:
David Rodman (2000). "Normal" or "Special" ?". In Laura Zittrain Eisenberg, Neil Caplan. Review Essays in Israel Studies. Suny Series in Israeli Studies, Vol. 5. State University of New York Press. p. 93. ISBN 978-0-7914-4422-1. "For most of the post-1967 period, Israel has been a pariah state in the world community"
This is the same country that has flatly refused and continued to flout 224 (at last count) binding resolutions (many of them regarding War Crimes), of the UN Security Council plus almost innumerable resolutions of the UN General Assembly most of which are regarding Crimes against Humanity.

Yet you continue to protest that you are not a Hasbara Troll, not only do you have the hide of a Rhinoceros, but it would also appear you have the short sightedness and logical thought processes of one as well. With no more than the above two facts taken into consideration, you are without doubt either a malicious troll, or your lobotomy was a complete failure.

Fortunately for the world, Israel's preferred status is weakening in the US* as they sicken of Israel's recalcitrance. I'd say we will see "interesting times" for Israel within the next 20 years. (maybe a lot sooner if Iran is given an honest go and allowed to develop). They too have a Right to the ability for self defence.

* The recent US, Iran arrangements being a clear sign of this. It would never have happened 5 years ago.
November 28th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Well, it appears I never missed anything.

But it's been a very long day, and a big day, starting at 0330, finally returning home at 2100 local time. A drive to Adelaide and flight to Canberra, an award presentation and nice five figure cash prize. Not a fortune, but it will certainly buy my new Nikon D610 with a couple of nice lenses, leaving the greater part to keep the little woman happy.

The drive home nearly killed me as I was tired and arrived back in Adelaide right on rush hour. It took 2.5 hours just to get out of the city, and the missus wonders why I hate the place I'm sure she knows now, she said it would have been faster to get out and walk enough times, I just gritted my teeth.

I could have stayed in Canberra with the son and daughter in law, but have a doctors appointment at 1000 tomorrow.

Nuff for now, I'm off to have a scalding shower and jump into the bunk
November 28th, 2013  
BritinBritain
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Well, it appears I never missed anything.

But it's been a very long day, and a big day, starting at 0330, finally returning home at 2100 local time. A drive to Adelaide and flight to Canberra, an award presentation and nice five figure cash prize. Not a fortune, but it will certainly buy my new Nikon D610 with a couple of nice lenses, leaving the greater part to keep the little woman happy.

The drive home nearly killed me as I was tired and arrived back in Adelaide right on rush hour. It took 2.5 hours just to get out of the city, and the missus wonders why I hate the place I'm sure she knows now, she said it would have been faster to get out and walk enough times, I just gritted my teeth.

I could have stayed in Canberra with the son and daughter in law, but have a doctors appointment at 1000 tomorrow.

Nuff for now, I'm off to have a scalding shower and jump into the bunk
Congratulations on the cash prize Spike.

What lens are you thinking of getting?
November 28th, 2013  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Well to be fair it is hard to disprove what you say because you simply deny anything that contradicts what you say.

As I recall I started my involvement in this discussion by talking about DNA and you responded with a report showing 80% of Ashkenazi Jews had a DNA link to the region but you declined to accept that the report also said 80% of Asians and Europeans also had the same gene and 70% of Palestinians also carry the gene which shows a connection to the region as far back as 3000 years.

I also notice that you did not mention all the other enthnic Jewish groups just the ones from the German area.

What your report really shows is that the Jews in Israel today are those that left the region for upwards of a millenium and that those Palestinians that you keep claiming don't exist are infact the decendants of those who stayed in the region and converted to Islam at some point in the past.

I would argue that based on that information alone Palestinians are the true inhabitants of the region based on both history, dna and continuous occupation where as those Jews that have moved there since are nothing more than European colonisers whos ancestors once lived in the region thousands of years ago but abandoned the region for whatever reason.
I think you read the wrong report. I gave a link in my post #1061.

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populationsshare a common pool of Y chromosome biallelic haplotypes:

In summary, the combined results suggest that a major portion of NRY biallelic diversity present in most of the contemporary Jewish communities surveyed here traces to a common Middle Eastern source population several thousand years ago. The implication is that this source population included a large number of distinct paternal and maternal lineages, reflecting genetic variation established in the Middle East at that time. In turn, this source diversity has been maintained within Jewish communities, despite numerous migrations during the Diaspora and long-term residence as isolated subpopulations in numerous geographic locations outside of the Middle East.


I also said, multiple times in fact, thay if we go far enough in time we all end up somewhere in southern Africa. The DNA disproved the ones who were saying that the Jews did not originate from that area.

But DNA has nothing to do with states and societies but with individual's paternal and maternal lineage. We are not discussing individuals here, we are discussing states and societies. You do not seem to have viewed the clip I posted of Hamas' interior minister [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3-GBsGmE54"]Fathi Hammad[/ame].

Quote:
As far as legal arguements go I would suggest that the legal borders of Israel stop at the 1947 demarcation lines and everything outside that is land taken in conquest which is not legally binding under article 2 paragraph 4 of the 1945 UN charter...
I'm glad you brought that up, because it was the Arab countries who violated the UN charter by attacking Israel.
Also, the legal borders do not stop at the 1947 demarcation lines.
Art VI - 11 of the Security Council DOCUMENT S/1302/REV.1 1/ (3 April 1949) states:

The Armistice Demarcation Lines defined in this article and in article V shall be subject to such rectification as may be agreed upon by the Parties to this Agreement, and all such rectifications shall have the same force and effect as if they had been incorporated in full in this General Armistice Agreement.


The agreement about the borders is between Israel and the Hashemite Jordan Kingdom, not between Israel and the Palestinians.

Quote:
Now we could also get into a discussion on the whole ethnic clensing thing and I am sure you would push the case that Palestinians were not forced off their lands despite evidence to the contrary and just for the sake of argument I will accept it (even though I don't) the fact is that international law allows for the right of refugees to return once the area is secure, not only does Israel refuse this they have colonised the area so they can't return.
That's not the whole truth. UNGA Resolution 194 III 11 states:

Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compsensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for the loss or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.


That's from 1948. We all know how many times Israel was attacked (suicide bombers, killings, rockets) by "Palestinians" until this day. So we can clearly state that "live at peace with their neighbours" is highly unlikely. May I also point to the fact that it is not only the responsibility of Israel but also the attacking states since "Governments and authorities" is written in plural. Another fact is that international law only speek about the refugees and not their descendants. One other thing, UNRWA does give assistence to the refugees and their descendants but only those that register at certain points and live at certain camps, so not every Palestinian refugee.

Quote:
Now lets be honest I can go on and on about Israels crimes and you will respond with a long winded mostly irrelevant response that amounts to "No" so I will cut to the chase...
So you can avoid the shelling of civilian homes in Israel, which is a crime against humanity or what about the suicide bombers?

Quote:
Have you ever considered that the reason that people do not like Israel is that people like you make such poor cases in their defense people like myself can find so many holes in your story that even those who once supported you now think where there is smoke there is fire?
That's your opnion. I give facts. Read this post again, it is based on facts for which I gave references.

Quote:
But no matter how you look at it in the end I don't like Israel because it is a nation that has done nothing positive for the world and instead brought suffering and misery to millions for no good reason other than ideological nonsense and an over inflated sense of entitlement.
You must be kidding, right? Look here.

Or what about this : The story of an eight-month-old Palestinian child with a hole in her heart. This Palestinian baby, born with a hole in her heart, received medical treatment from an Israeli charity.

Quote:
In closing I would suggest that my very limited exposure to Palestinians show me a very resilient and amazing adaptive people, my limited exposure to Israelis is mixed on one hand I have met some that show me peace is possible yet I have met others that made me think kindly of Hamas but in the end I can honestly say if Israel were to evaporate tomorrow I would not shed a tear.
The problem is religion, as I have said from in the beginning. If it wasn't about religion there wouldn't be Shahid (muslim martyr) and streets wouldn't be named after someone killing chuildren. If it wasn't about religion then the second intifada wouldn't be called the Al-Aqsa Intifada. If it wasn't about religion then Hamas would not quote the qur'an for killing Jews. (Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176: Narrated by 'Abdullah bin 'Umar). If it wasn't about religion there would already be peace.

read this book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
This is the same country that has flatly refused and continued to flout 224 (at last count) binding resolutions (many of them regarding War Crimes), of the UN Security Council plus almost innumerable resolutions of the UN General Assembly most of which are regarding Crimes against Humanity.
From wikipedia. The last one is from 2009 (your number 224 and counting.....stops?). No resolutions for the last 4 years? Have you read the reolutions? Because according to your quote it seems that Israel never complies while in fact they do. Why don't you mention the resolutions against Israel's enemies that are not complied? (Hezbollah , Iran). Did it occur to you that those resolutions come after Israel retaliates after an attack? Right of self defense.
Let's take resolution 1322. From Wikipedia:
The Council deplored the visit by Ariel Sharon to the Temple Mount (referred to in the Resolution by its Arab name Al-Haram Al-Sharif)


Why is a Jew not allowed to visit his most holy site in Judaism? What about freedom of religion? What would happen if Muslims were not allowed to go to Mekka? Funny that that site blocks all peace agreements between Israel en "Palestine". You know why? Because it is about religion. Muslims want to control the Temple Mount. They already have the key (literally) to the most holy site of Christianity and destroyed the Hindu one.
November 28th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
I notice that VD is up to his normal standard in that he didn't even try to refute my proof that he is a Troll, a pathological liar, or the recipient of a poorly performed lobotomy, but instead went on to pad out a huge answer on anything else he can think of, virtually all of which has been shown many times to be no more than Zionist fairy stories, and only believed by the supporters of Zionism.

I'll get back with more later, I have a lot to do today.

P.S. At 1857 hrs after a Doctors appointment, a Mayoral Dinner with our local Town councillors, a sleep and a lot of fluffing around. Nahhh,.... fckit, I won't go on as it's all wasted on VD anyway. I'll leave his treatment to some mental institution somewhere.
November 28th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I think you read the wrong report. I gave a link in my post #1061.

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populationsshare a common pool of Y chromosome biallelic haplotypes:

In summary, the combined results suggest that a major portion of NRY biallelic diversity present in most of the contemporary Jewish communities surveyed here traces to a common Middle Eastern source population several thousand years ago. The implication is that this source population included a large number of distinct paternal and maternal lineages, reflecting genetic variation established in the Middle East at that time. In turn, this source diversity has been maintained within Jewish communities, despite numerous migrations during the Diaspora and long-term residence as isolated subpopulations in numerous geographic locations outside of the Middle East.


I also said, multiple times in fact, thay if we go far enough in time we all end up somewhere in southern Africa. The DNA disproved the ones who were saying that the Jews did not originate from that area.
No it doesn't it disproves the argument that Jews have a greater right to the area than everyone else including those living there previous to the European invasion because the fact is the Palestinians have the same gene as do 80% of Europeans and Asians.

Basically what you are claiming as the whole justification for Israel is by scientific terms little more than background noise which basically means Buddhists have as much claim to a state as in the region as Jews do along with about three fifths of the rest of the world.

I also find it funny that I can walk through excavations in the area and find out everything about the Canaanites, Romans, Phoenicians and Egyptians yet there is not one shred of evidence for the great kingdom of Israel can be found, I was thinking about this while looking at a Canaanite wine cellar they excavated a few weeks back and it made me wonder about how it is every other civilisation that occupied the region is clearly visible yet nothing of David and the team to be seen.

Was it so efficiently wiped out which makes me wonder how previous archeology remained or did it just not exist after all the only way archeologists seem to link Jews to the area by by saying that "it was possibly Jewish because they didn't find any pig bones during the dig" but then if I dug out the back of my place I doubt I would find pig bones either but I am pretty sure that doesn't mean it was of a Jewish empire.
 


Similar Topics
Israel rightfully own the West Bank .
Israel strikes Beirut suburb, tightens blockade
A conversation with Iranian dissident (MUST READ)
Palestinians
American racism