So why do people hate Israel? - Page 14




 
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December 12th, 2011  
RayManKiller3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
So as I understand it you don't approve of them taking land today but some how you approve of the last 60 years of land grabs?

Mate it must be a bastard removing those splints after all this time on the fence.



He didn't say he approved those either; he is arguing it in a legal point of view. Buying up land is really not illegal as far as I know. After all, like he says, they didn't need to sell it to them. Sure their intenetions was wrong and it may have been unethical, but unethical do not equal illegal....


If your talking about the expansion after the partition plan, I call it pain and suffering gain. If the Arabs never went hostile, Israel may not have been able to expand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Other than a Veto at the UN which should be removed from all 5 permanent members do you honestly think the USA has any influence in the outcome of this mess, the USA has taken sides Israel knows it can get away with anything it likes and the Palestinians know they will get nothing as long as the USA can block it but the one thing they can do is force Israel to spend billions and the USA to give them billions on defence until eventually both economies collapse.

So you can have who ever you like in the White House (Democrat or Republican) and it will still be the same rhetoric spewing forward, "The only peace will be on Israel's terms but we are impartial really so trust us".

I am not sure if I agree with the veto being removed thing, though I admit, I don't like it.
December 13th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayManKiller3
He didn't say he approved those either; he is arguing it in a legal point of view. Buying up land is really not illegal as far as I know. After all, like he says, they didn't need to sell it to them. Sure their intenetions was wrong and it may have been unethical, but unethical do not equal illegal....
Wow seems running in circles is popular around here, ok so lets say I own the house next to yours but you wont sell it to me, as a response I cut off your water, take pot shots at you when ever possible, dump my trash over the fence, let my dog crap on your lawn and in general escalate my actions until you eventually do sell me your property.

Oh and if you retaliate in anyway the police show up, evict you and bulldoze your property.

Perfectly fine in your view?



Quote:
If your talking about the expansion after the partition plan, I call it pain and suffering gain. If the Arabs never went hostile, Israel may not have been able to expand.
It really is a pity Palestinians arent white christians like say the IRA then they could count on US support, I would also suggest never ever using the "pain and suffering gain" as a term ever again and be very thankful you are outside arms reach right now as that is one of the most appalling things I have ever heard said on this forum and there have been some really shitty post over the years.
December 13th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
So as I understand it you don't approve of them taking land today but some how you approve of the last 60 years of land grabs?
Mate it must be a bastard removing those splints after all this time on the fence.
Israel was not land grab, the UN gave it to the Jews. After the war of 1948 Israel took some more because of the Arab attacks. Just like Jordan took the West Bank and Egypt the Gaza. The settlements in the West Bank are a problem to the Palestinians. My point of view is that it is better to give the West Bank (including the Israeli settlements) to the Palestinians. This is also the international view. Legaly though it can be desputed.

I explain : palestine was ruled by the UN, devided in two (Israel - Palestine). The Arabs refused, so the land keeps under UN rule. But they left in 1948 (the British who were responsible for the governing the land). After the war of 1948 Jordan annexed the West Bank, so it became Jordan land (although never approved by the UN). In 1988 Jordan renounced it and in 1993 Israel and the PLO devided it according to the Oslo accords.

Quote:
Other than a Veto at the UN which should be removed from all 5 permanent members do you honestly think the USA has any influence in the outcome of this mess, the USA has taken sides Israel knows it can get away with anything it likes and the Palestinians know they will get nothing as long as the USA can block it but the one thing they can do is force Israel to spend billions and the USA to give them billions on defence until eventually both economies collapse.
The US not only give money to Israel but also to the Palestinians. In fact, in % of GDP, the Palestinians get more.
You seem to blame only Israel for not making peace but have you already read the covenants of the PO and Hamas? Is that promoting peace? Or teaching children in geography classes that Israel doers not exists? A 2007 Palestinian Media Watch report says ."The teachings repeatedly reject Israel's right to exist, present the conflict as a religious battle for Islam..." Would you be happy to make peace with your neighbour who says I'm going to kill you?

Quote:
So you can have who ever you like in the White House (Democrat or Republican) and it will still be the same rhetoric spewing forward, "The only peace will be on Israel's terms but we are impartial really so trust us".
The Republicans will stand by Israel when they expand the settlements, the Democrats will condemn it.
As long as the Palestinians cannot guarantee that they are able to stop attacks against Israel there will not be a peace accord.
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December 13th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Yeah, that's why the israeli government turn a blind eye to forced evictions, destruction of olive groves, burning of pasture and crops and intimidation of farmers by armed settlers, not to mention the army who quite regularly shoot farmers and their animals on their own land (not leased). Your quote above would be laughable if it were not such a blatant piece of zionist propaganda. Again, the facts on the ground prove to be diametrically opposed to what what you would have us believe.
The discussion was about Arabs not able to lease land in Israel. I proved you were wrong. So, don't jump on something else.

Quote:
That's absolute crap, and you know it, here you have the facts as told by Jews, people who unlike the pro zionists, have nothing to gain from voicing their opinion.
Rule of law is not absolute crap.
BTW the conflict is a religious one.

Quote:
As I have said several times, read what is written and not what you would like me to have said. At no stage have i ever said that, this is another example of your continued deliberate distortion of the facts, another unsuccessful attempt at putting words in people's mouths.
You said . "...strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying...". Now you tell me how a Jew is able to buy land from a Arab Palestinian. Tell me.

Quote:
Today's tidbit, showing the Nazi like mentality of Zionist leaders. (Not to be found in anyone's diary)
"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
Well, well, well, you blew it again! This is the complete quote:

Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir warned today that rioters would be crushed ''like grasshoppers.'' and ''Anybody who wants to damage this fortress and other fortresses we are establishing will have his head smashed against the boulders and walls.''
Original article in the New York Times !

How many times are you going to distort the quotes of those people?
December 13th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Israel was not land grab, the UN gave it to the Jews. After the war of 1948 Israel took some more because of the Arab attacks. Just like Jordan took the West Bank and Egypt the Gaza. The settlements in the West Bank are a problem to the Palestinians. My point of view is that it is better to give the West Bank (including the Israeli settlements) to the Palestinians. This is also the international view. Legaly though it can be desputed.
Are you seriously going with that argument if so I guess we owe Germany a really big apology for invading the West after all the French did invade Germany in 1939 so the Germans only took Paris because of French aggression and it was the British and French that declared war on Germany first, however the German invasion of Vichy France in 1944 should be seen as a problem for the French.

Quote:
The US not only give money to Israel but also to the Palestinians. In fact, in % of GDP, the Palestinians get more.
You seem to blame only Israel for not making peace but have you already read the covenants of the PO and Hamas? Is that promoting peace? Or teaching children in geography classes that Israel doers not exists? A 2007 Palestinian Media Watch report says ."The teachings repeatedly reject Israel's right to exist, present the conflict as a religious battle for Islam..." Would you be happy to make peace with your neighbour who says I'm going to kill you?
No I do not blame Israel for not making peace I accuse Israel of not wanting peace and using this as a method of stealing more land they do not own, it is my opinion that the last thing Israel needs or wants is peace.

Fortunately for them they have apologists like yourself to ensure they are always patted on the back no matter what they do still given Belgium's colonial history I guess I can understand your support of another colonial project.
December 13th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Wow seems running in circles is popular around here, ok so lets say I own the house next to yours but you wont sell it to me, as a response I cut off your water, take pot shots at you when ever possible, dump my trash over the fence, let my dog crap on your lawn and in general escalate my actions until you eventually do sell me your property.

Oh and if you retaliate in anyway the police show up, evict you and bulldoze your property.

Perfectly fine in your view?
If you are talking about the present you forget to mention that you first smashed my windows, destroyed my dinner table in a suicidal attack and killed my dog!

If you are talking about the past I'll answer with a quote:

Under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them. Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement, should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.
Written statement (1920), as quoted in Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs : From Peace to War (1985) by Shabtai Teveth, p. 32.

Quote:
It really is a pity Palestinians arent white christians like say the IRA then they could count on US support, I would also suggest never ever using the "pain and suffering gain" as a term ever again and be very thankful you are outside arms reach right now as that is one of the most appalling things I have ever heard said on this forum and there have been some really shitty post over the years.
I didn't expect those words to come from you. All that RayManKiller3 is saying is that they (the Arab Palestinians) started all this by being the first to use big deadly attacks and got beaten up. Maybe you like this saying better : chickens come home to roost
December 13th, 2011  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I didn't expect those words to come from you. All that RayManKiller3 is saying is that they (the Arab Palestinians) started all this by being the first to use big deadly attacks and got beaten up. Maybe you like this saying better : chickens come home to roost
I don't disagree however we look at things in a very different light because I am damn sure I would do the same if a bunch of immigrants tried to take over land I believed to be mine and it is a damn good thing that European resistance movements did not share your views or Western Europe would still be under Nazi control.

All I get from the two of you is some wishy washy nonsense that you don't approve of dispossessing people today but it was ok 70 years ago however the Palestinians who are indigenous to the region for at least 2000 years by DNA (as you agreed) can be dispossessed because 100 years ago they were not called Palestinians they were called Arabs/Syrians by guys who 100 years ago were called Europeans.

Sound about where you are at?
December 13th, 2011  
RayManKiller3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I don't disagree however we look at things in a very different light because I am damn sure I would do the same if a bunch of immigrants tried to take over land I believed to be mine and it is a damn good thing that European resistance movements did not share your views or Western Europe would still be under Nazi control.
I kind of think of the illegal immigrants coming into the U.S (in mass numbers) as somewhat like the Jews going into Palestine. This is a severe issue for U.S (home value, certain crimes, and jobs mainly), but you don't see us making terrorist groups to attack illegals (particulary hispanics). We rather do it legally through our political system.


Also, I didn't mean to be harsh about it, VDKMS understood what I meant. If you start trouble and get beaten, most likely the victor will take more than he needs as "pain and suffering". I didn't say I agree with it, but I see it like that. I am not sure how your legal system works, but if you damage someone's property here, you can be liable for that and even greater payment for the actions you done in the terms "pain and suffering".


Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
All I get from the two of you is some wishy washy nonsense that you don't approve of dispossessing people today but it was ok 70 years ago however the Palestinians who are indigenous to the region for at least 2000 years by DNA (as you agreed) can be dispossessed because 100 years ago they were not called Palestinians they were called Arabs/Syrians by guys who 100 years ago were called Europeans.

Sound about where you are at?

The U.N decided it, whether it was for good or ill. We may not like it, but it happened and I think it would be completely aweful to repeat those mistakes by removing Israel, which hosts more than 5 million Jews). A lot of countries dispossessed Jews and I don't see no one fighting to get them back to those countries, certainly not as hard as fighting for Palestine.

We agree on the solution Monty,I am only arguing the fact that most here seems to want to blame Israel mainly for this problem (and the fact Seno seems to want to "move" Israel from "Palestinian lands"). There are many political steps Palestine can take to get their state. The fact they chose violence and not to get a state simply because a Jewish state is there, tells me it was largely related to religion. This is undisputable, I don't see how anyone can not agree that it was started mainly because of religion.
December 13th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Are you seriously going with that argument if so I guess we owe Germany a really big apology for invading the West after all the French did invade Germany in 1939 so the Germans only took Paris because of French aggression and it was the British and French that declared war on Germany first, however the German invasion of Vichy France in 1944 should be seen as a problem for the French.
You're mixing things up a bit. The Jews didn't start a war. The Germans did. Britain and France declared war on Germany because of their accords with Poland. The (very) small invasion of the French into Germany in 1939 was because the Germans invaded Poland. The Jews did not invade anything. They were attacked by the Palestinians and a bit later by Arab armies.

Quote:
No I do not blame Israel for not making peace I accuse Israel of not wanting peace and using this as a method of stealing more land they do not own, it is my opinion that the last thing Israel needs or wants is peace.
Israel does want peace but on their own terms. I do not support the religious parties (BTW - no matter what religion in no matter what country) which support the settlements and in fact want the whole of Palestine. Do not forget that Israel is going to remove illegal settlements in the West bank. According to your answer you still didn't read the covenants of the PLO and Hamas.

Quote:
Fortunately for them they have apologists like yourself to ensure they are always patted on the back no matter what they do still given Belgium's colonial history I guess I can understand your support of another colonial project.
That's not nice. But the Congo was not attacked or invaded by the Belgians. Congo was a private property of King Leopold II and he gave it to Belgium shortly before his death. At that time people had quite a differnt look at the native people of Australia, New Zealand, America, Africa etc. Nowadays it's outrageous what they did to those people, but back then it was quite normal. If we look at the whole history of the world with the glasses of today it will only be about massacres, crimes against humanity, property theft etc. Who knows what people think of our doing in 1000 years from now.
December 13th, 2011  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I don't disagree however we look at things in a very different light because I am damn sure I would do the same if a bunch of immigrants tried to take over land I believed to be mine and it is a damn good thing that European resistance movements did not share your views or Western Europe would still be under Nazi control.

All I get from the two of you is some wishy washy nonsense that you don't approve of dispossessing people today but it was ok 70 years ago however the Palestinians who are indigenous to the region for at least 2000 years by DNA (as you agreed) can be dispossessed because 100 years ago they were not called Palestinians they were called Arabs/Syrians by guys who 100 years ago were called Europeans.

Sound about where you are at?
What about you? Are your ancestors natives of the country you live in or did they come from Europe. If so are you ready to move if the natives reclaim their land? And if you have native ancestors don't you have to go back from where they came from?
 


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