So why do people hate Israel? - Page 137




 
--
 
May 10th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I'm very happy with this mature view. The mandate was to create a Jewish national Home in what is now Israel, PA and Jordan (they called it reconstituting). It was the British who had to accomplish that. In the beginning they really tried their utmost best to achieve that. Letters and reports to the government prove that.
The following is my reasoning with the information I have. When the mandate started the British could not immediately give all the land to a few Jews. The mandate gave unlimited immigration to the Jews but it was not allowed to harm the people already living there. That's why the British tried to find a balance between immigration and the economy to support the increase of people.
No.
Your previous text clearly indicates Jordan was not included in any deal, the borders of Palestine were fixed at the point that Palestine met Trans-Jordan.

The fact still remains that "Israel" was in my opinion never the intention of the mandate, Israel is the manifestation of European colonisation at the expense of the indigenous/native population and as such could never have been accepted as part of any mandate.

Palestine in my opinion was meant to be a single state under the control of the local population as it was post WW1 not 1948 structured along the lines of a modern western state ie secular and had this come about I doubt it would have been called Israel.

Quote:
That went fairly well in the beginning. Some land in possession of the mandate (transfer from the Ottoman empire, completely legal in international law) was destined for acquirement by the Jews. The Arab leadership that fought alongside the British and the Jews against the Turks were happy with the arrival of the Jews but didn't want a Jewish state out of religious grounds. (replace Jews with Christians and it would have been the same).That was of course a major problem for the British because they needed the Arabs for the oil and the use of the Suez canal. Things got worse with the first (religious) attacks on the Jews. And it got worse and worse. Palestinians selling their land to Jews were killed by their fellow countrymen. The attacks on Jews increased and they started to defend themselves. In the beginning the British did whatever they could to protect the Jews but it became a nightmare. They also came under attack of the fanatical Palestinians and didn't want to be in the middle of that "war" and became reluctant to intervene. In the meantime they reduced the immigration, even sending away (deporting) ships full of refugees to the other side of the world to please the Arabs. This angered the Jews. Some of them were fed up with the defense and the failure to give them the promised Jewish state and started to go on the offensive. So we had everyone fighting against everyone. The British ended the mandate and left. The Jews declared independence on the land that was to be theirs according to the partition plan and the Arabs attacked with the intention to destroy it (infringement of international law). The attacks had nothing to do with the immigrants but with their religion, as said before. It also was to no help for the Palestinians for which the Arabs didn't care, propably because they didn't fight along them against the Ottoman Turks.
I also like to point you to the notion of "stealing the land". This had nothing to do with the ownership but all with the religious belief that non muslims are not to rule over muslim ground and that it is the duty of every muslim to do something about that (Jihad).
All pretty much irrelevant, people have the right to defend the land they have lived on for centuries.


Quote:
Very simple. Universal laws. Constitutional equality. The British started to go into that direction adding the principles of the Anglo-Saxon system (which
is based on judicial precedents or case law) to the Ottoman laws. Israeli law is also based on that. Specific laws were enacted for some of the recognized religious communities including the Moslems, the Druze, the Jews, and the Christian communities (generally restricted to matters of marriage and divorce). This is religious freedom opposite to laws based on the Koran, which does not give religious freedom but religious tolerance at best.
You are barking up the wrong tree as you cant even convince Israelis that they aren't just paying lip service to equality as recent polls have pointed out 60% of them believe there system is one of institutionalised racism and a further 8% describe it as an apartheid state.
If you cant convince them you sure as hell wont convince me.

I remain convinced that the Israel of today is not the Palestine envisaged in the mandates.
May 10th, 2013  
Del Boy
 
Absolutely correct VDKMS, Senojekips has a twisted take on this subject and twists everything to match his own distorted opinions. Long ago I establised here verification of the truth of Israel's claim to their homeland in great detail, including DNA; reports by Roman recorder Josephus, which he dismissed as religious piffle; the ejection of Jews from their homes by the Arab countries, penniless and without their family wealth, amounting to many billions by today's measure.

He simply cocks a blind eye or relies on spouted abuse. I became completely pissed off, realising that he relishes the opportunity to climb on his soap box and foam at the mouth.

So I decided that I had no wish to have to repeat myself. Why should I continue to cast pearls before swine, I asked myself.

I am happy to tell them that reports of my death have been greatly exagerated, but thank them for their concerns.
May 10th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
I'm tempted to look, but I haven't got enough time for a ride on the lunatic's merry go round today.
--
May 10th, 2013  
BritinBritain
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
You understood some of that then?

Admittedly it is 5am here but it seemed rather a cryptic rant to me.
As soon as I saw who it was from, I knew it would be a load of bollocks. He really should go back to his village, they want its idiot back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Boy
Absolutely correct VDKMS, Senojekips has a twisted take on this subject and twists everything to match his own distorted opinions. Long ago I establised here verification of the truth of Israel's claim to their homeland in great detail, including DNA; reports by Roman recorder Josephus, which he dismissed as religious piffle; the ejection of Jews from their homes by the Arab countries, penniless and without their family wealth, amounting to many billions by today's measure.

He simply cocks a blind eye or relies on spouted abuse. I became completely pissed off, realising that he relishes the opportunity to climb on his soap box and foam at the mouth.

So I decided that I had no wish to have to repeat myself. Why should I continue to cast pearls before swine, I asked myself.
And this is from someone who argued that there was no a statue of Nelson Mandela, a terrorist by the way, in Parliament Square in London, his own city!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Boy
I am happy to tell them that reports of my death have been greatly exagerated, but thank them for their concerns.
Thats because some idiot keeps taking the wooden stake out.

Hey Del Boy, there's a TV series called "The Walking Dead," why don't you apply to become an extra, you wouldn't need any make up.
May 10th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BritinAfrica
As soon as I saw who it was from, I knew it would be a load of bollocks. He really should go back to his village, they want its idiot back.

And this is from someone who argued that there was no a statue of Nelson Mandela, a terrorist by the way, in Parliament Square in London, his own city!
Yep, he must be on day release again and off his medication. I've got him on ignore and can't actually see his drivel unless someone else quotes it, as they try to make sense of it.

This is the same dribbling cloth **** who actually wrote recently that I claimed to be a Jew, and promptly fell on his @rse. What the voices in his head don't tell him. he just makes up.
May 10th, 2013  
BritinBritain
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Yep, he must be on day release again and off his medication. I've got him on ignore and can't actually see his drivel unless someone else quotes it, as they try to make sense of it.

This is the same dribbling cloth **** who actually wrote recently that I claimed to be a Jew, and promptly fell on his @rse. What the voices in his head don't tell him. he just makes up.
I don't know if the TV series Only Fools and Horses was shown in Oz, basically the main character was called Del Boy, a loveable real jack the lad, I dunno if he is trying to emulate Del Boy in the TV series, but he is sadly lacking. If I were the real Del Boy I'd sue him for giving him a bad name.
May 10th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Nahh,... It looks like were lucky enough to miss that one, I really don't watch much TV other the news and documentaries anyway.

I found it easier just to put Dill Boy on "Ignore". I finally got sick and tired of wasting most of my time trying to work out what he was actually trying to say. His answers were usually either so off topic, illogical or just plain "thick" that I would spend more time wondering if it were not some weird kind of "trick" question, as no one in their right mind would actually write the drivel he goes on with.

His favourite time wasting ploy was the "circular argument" where his ultimate proof would end up being the very first statement you disproved, and if allowed, he would end up just going round and round in circles making you disprove the same point ad infinitum.

His logic was a bit like the idiot who says, "If you wish to lose weight you must eat a lot more and exercise less, because overweight people burn more energy"

With idiots like him in the UK, I can see why you went to Africa, he would be enough to make any Englishman ashamed to admit their nationality.
May 10th, 2013  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
No.
Your previous text clearly indicates Jordan was not included in any deal, the borders of Palestine were fixed at the point that Palestine met Trans-Jordan.
The fact that Jordan was included or not depends on which text (time related) you use.
At the San Remo conference on 25/04/1920 there is no talk of a Jordan.
"The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 8, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people"

(The decleration on 08/11/1917 was the Balfour Declaration)

In a League of Nations Mandate for Palestine document of 12/08/1922 there's talk about the possibility of giving some territory another purpose. This later became Trans Jordan.
"In the territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine..."

Quote:
The fact still remains that "Israel" was in my opinion never the intention of the mandate, Israel is the manifestation of European colonisation at the expense of the indigenous/native population and as such could never have been accepted as part of any mandate.
Yes it was, but it was called "Jewish National Home".
The Palestine Mandate clearly says so:

"Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country"


Reconstituting means that there was one before, this one :



Quote:
Palestine in my opinion was meant to be a single state under the control of the local population as it was post WW1 not 1948 structured along the lines of a modern western state ie secular and had this come about I doubt it would have been called Israel.
You and I know that a single country would have been the best solution. The problem is religion. The Arabs (moslims) did not want to live under jewish (non-muslim) rule and the Jews didn't want to live under muslim rule, because they would become, again, second class people, and the mandate was made for a place so the Jews could live according to Jewish rules. Every muslim state's constitution is based on sharia law.

Quote:
All pretty much irrelevant, people have the right to defend the land they have lived on for centuries.
Sure, the problem is that the people do not rule their land. The government does. They decide what's going to happen to that land. And the government that ruled the region Palestine was gone (Ottoman). A new government arrived (Mandate) with new rules. After Israel was founded Jews living in Arab states lost their nationality, property and savings. May I remind you that those people had noting to do with Israel and were not even armed to wage an attack. They had every right to live there just as a Palestinian had a right to live in Palestine. The Jews didn't attack the Arabs in the newly founded Israel, and certainly not beyond the borders. But the Arabs did attack the Jews, not only in Israel but in every Arab nation. Now who's the culprit here?

Quote:
You are barking up the wrong tree as you cant even convince Israelis that they aren't just paying lip service to equality as recent polls have pointed out 60% of them believe there system is one of institutionalised racism and a further 8% describe it as an apartheid state.
If you cant convince them you sure as hell wont convince me.
A poll is what people think. That does not always reflect reality. Whether you like it or not, but the Israeli laws are not based on inequality of race. Each and every Israeli citizen has the same constitutional rights.
The difference is that a poll is about opinion, laws are about facts. Can you see a little theme here?

Quote:
I remain convinced that the Israel of today is not the Palestine envisaged in the mandates.
You have every right to do so. I think it was meant to be bigger.
May 11th, 2013  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS

A poll is what people think. That does not always reflect reality. Whether you like it or not, but the Israeli laws are not based on inequality of race. Each and every Israeli citizen has the same constitutional rights.
The difference is that a poll is about opinion, laws are about facts. Can you see a little theme here?
My first job out of university was in a laboratory and it was company policy that labs were equipped with certain items and some items not on the list were not allowed, we needed an Atomic Absorption Spectrophotometer for a job but weren't allowed to buy one because it wasn't in our equipment list however we had an unlimited maintenance budget so we purchased an old broken down one for a few dollars and then called in maintenance who told us it couldn't be fixed and had to be replaced consequently 2 weeks later our replacement AAS arrived.

Can you see a theme there?

Basically there are ways around everything and policies on paper are not necessarily enforced or enacted in real life.



Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS



You have every right to do so. I think it was meant to be bigger.
Yes and so does Israel which is pretty much why they are not liked, me I don't think it was ever meant to have existed at all.

While in Jordan I was lucky enough to be there for work which meant I got to spend time talking to staff in a work type environment (informal) this topic came up what surprised me is that most of them didn't regard Israel with hatred but with distrust the general consensus was that once they had completed the creeping annexation of the West Bank they would start on Jordan next primarily because they are rebuilding some ancient kingdom.

I was really doing my best to lead the discussion to see if someone would mention it, congratulation you did.

It isn't all that hard to understand why Israel is not liked when surrounding nations see it as a predator nation akin to a virus, countries like mine find Israel in the news frequently for identity theft (which in a country that travels a lot is a big thing), many others have caught them spying or assassinating someone and who on the whole act like spoiled school children on the international stage.

I think the general consensus is that few people really give a flying rats arse about Israel and I really don't think all that many people out side Israel would lose a lot of sleep if it vanished over night but one thing is for sure the world is growing less and less tolerant of its actions.

So now we have come full circle and answered why people hate Israel, it may not be an answer you like or want to hear but it is the answer none the less.
May 11th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Israel, is the way it is, because it is chronically insecure, and the reason why they are insecure is that they know they have no legal or moral right to be where they are, or behave in the manner which they do.

I think it is gradually dawning on them though, that Israel has always been doomed to fail, disregarding all else their own Arab population will simply out breed them and swamp their dream, other than which they are also starting to realise that the International Community is sickening of their actions, constant playing of the victim card and bullying the owners of the land, and will quite possibly end up feeding them to the dogs, a la the regime of Saddam Hussein, or at the very least doing nothing to prevent their enemies from doing what has to be done.

Like all rogue states they will eventually come to a sticky end.

Quote:
Atrocities in the Promised Land By KATHLEEN CHRISTISON former CIA analyst

A nation that mandates the primacy of one ethnicity or religion overall others will eventually become psychologically dysfunctional.
Narcissistically obsessed with its own image, it must strive to maintain its racial superiority at all costs and will inevitably come to view any
resistance to this imagined superiority as an existential threat. Indeed, any other people automatically becomes an existential threat
simply by virtue of its own existence. As it seeks to protect itself against phantom threats, the racist state becomes increasingly paranoid,
its society closed and insular, intellectually limited. Setbacks enrage it; humiliations madden it. The state lashes out in a crazed effort,lacking
any sense of proportion, to reassure itself of its strength. The pattern played out in Nazi Germany as it sought to maintain a mythical
Aryan superiority.

It is playing out now in Israel. “This society no longer recognizes any boundaries, geographical or moral,” wrote Israeli
intellectual and anti-Zionist activist Michel Warschawski in his 2004 book Towards an Open Tomb: The Crisis of Israeli Society. Israel knows
no limits and is lashing out as it finds that its attempt to beat the Palestinians into submission and swallow Palestine whole is being
thwarted by a resilient, dignified Palestinian people who refuse to submit quietly and give up resisting Israel’s arrogance.”

http://www.counterpu...on07172006.html

 


Similar Topics
Israel rightfully own the West Bank .
Israel strikes Beirut suburb, tightens blockade
A conversation with Iranian dissident (MUST READ)
Palestinians
American racism