So why do people hate Israel? - Page 129




 
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April 10th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.J
Political rights in Palestine were granted to Jews only
The “Mandate for Palestine” clearly differentiates between political rights – referring to Jewish self-determination as an emerging polity – and civil and religious rights, referring to guarantees of equal personal freedoms to non-Jewish residents as individuals and within select communities. Not once are Arabs as a people mentioned in the “Mandate for Palestine.” At no point in the entire document is there any granting of political rights to non-Jewish entities (i.e., Arabs). Article 2 of the “Mandate for Palestine” explicitly states that the Mandatory should:

“... be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish National Home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.”

Political rights to self-determination as a polity for Arabs were guaranteed by the League of Nations in four other mandates – in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and later Trans-Jordan (today Jordan). International law expert Professor Eugene V. Rostow, examining the claim for Arab Palestinian self-determination on the basis of law, concluded:

“… the mandate implicitly denies Arab claims to national political rights in the area in favor of the Jews; the mandated territory was in effect reserved to the Jewish people for their self-determination and political development, in acknowledgment of the historic connection of the Jewish people to the land. Lord Curzon, who was then the British Foreign Minister, made this reading of the mandate explicit. There remains simply the theory that the Arab inhabitants of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip have an inherent ‘natural law’ claim to the area. Neither customary international law nor the United Nations Charter acknowledges that every group of people claiming to be a nation has the right to a state of its own.”

In the first Report of the High Commissioner on the Administration of Palestine (1920-1925) presented to the British Secretary of State for the Colonies, published in April 1925, the most senior official of the Mandate, the High Commissioner for Palestine, underscored how international guarantees for the existence of a Jewish National Home in Palestine were achieved:

“The (Balfour) Declaration was endorsed at the time by several of the Allied Governments; it was reaffirmed by the Conference of the Principal Allied Powers at San Remo in 1920; it was subsequently endorsed by unanimous resolutions of both Houses of the Congress of the United States; it was embodied in the Mandate for Palestine approved by the League of Nations in 1922; it was declared, in a formal statement of policy issued by the Colonial Secretary in the same year, ‘not to be susceptible of change.’

Far from the whim of this or that politician or party, eleven successive British governments, Labor and Conservative, from David Lloyd George (1916-1922) through Clement Attlee (1945-1952) viewed themselves as duty-bound to fulfill the “Mandate for Palestine” placed in the hands of Great Britain by the League of Nations.

In 1919, in the wake of World War I, England and France as Mandatory (e.g., official administrators and mentors) carved up the former Ottoman Empire, which had collapsed a year earlier, into geographic spheres of influence. This divided the Mideast into new political entities with new names and frontiers. Territory was divided along map meridians without regard for traditional frontiers (i.e., geographic logic and sustainability) or the ethnic composition of indigenous populations.

The prevailing rationale behind these artificially created states was how they served the imperial and commercial needs of their colonial masters. Iraq and Jordan, for instance, were created as emirates to reward the noble Hashemite family from Saudi Arabia for its loyalty to the British against the Ottoman Turks during World War I, under the leadership of Lawrence of Arabia. Iraq was given to Faisal bin Hussein, son of the sheriff of Mecca, in 1918. To reward his younger brother Abdullah with an emirate, Britain cut away 77 percent of its mandate over Palestine earmarked for the Jews and gave it to Abdullah in 1922, creating the new country of Trans-Jordan or Jordan, as it was later named.

The Arabs’ hatred of the Jewish State has never been strong enough to prevent the bloody rivalries that repeatedly rock the Middle East. These conflicts were evident in the civil wars in Yemen and Lebanon, as well as in the war between Iraq and Iran, in the gassing of countless Kurds in Iraq, and in the killing of Iraqis by Iraqis. The manner in which European colonial powers carved out political entities with little regard to their ethnic composition not only led to this inter-ethnic violence, but it also encouraged dictatorial rule as the only force capable of holding such entities together.

The exception was Palestine, or Eretz-Israel – the territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, where:

“The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country (Palestine) under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish National Home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.”


I have no objections that people are critically or is against state of Israel
Hell, I do not agree with everything my government stands for or does.
But make sure you have the historical facts in order before you set out on
a crusade.
You are somewhat of a master of the Habarat's use of obfuscation, hiding the plainly obvious truth behind all manner semi legalese "guff". Tell me how any of the rubbish you have posted above has the slightest mitigating effect against Israel's almost endless list of proven Ethnic cleansing and other human Human Rights abuses.

Even the Nazis built the world's best Autobahns and provided employment in a country that was previously a political and economic basket case,... but this has no bearing on the horrific Crimes they committed, and Israel is the same today.

You completely ignore the fact that any Jewish homeland could have only ever happened in Palestine so long as it complied with the Mandates requirement that they administer the land "in the best interests of it's people", so we all know that a legitimate Jewish homeland in Palestine was just never going to occur.

As for my views on Israel, I give Israel the same hearing that I would give any regime that behaves the way they do.
Twenty years ago, I was an ardent supporter of Israel as were most people, I think. However when the undeniable truth started to emerge as to exactly what they had done and were continuing to do, I started to look deeper, and the more I looked the less I liked what I found. Of course this caused me to watch their subsequent actions closely which of course only worsened my opinion of this rogue state.

When I find that the huge amounts of information often backed with video evidence, from multiple reputable International sources like AAP Reuters, Medecins sans Frontieres and the Red Cross/Crescent etc., all starts to coincide with the long standing and previously ignored claims of poor uneducated Palestinians, it becomes very easy to to work out who is telling the truth and who is not. The mere matter of over 200 condemnatory UN resolutions doesn't help Israel's credibility either. As I have said in another post, the single biggest nail in the Israeli coffin is the fact that the Israeli Department of Foreign affairs found it necessary to co opt members of the Military and pro Zionists around the world to "soften up" the facts in an almost futile attempt to mitigate their actions.

All the stupid threats of "anti Semitism" and calling people "Self hating Jews" coupled with attempted obfuscation of the facts, only puts more mud in Israel's eye as the great bulk of incriminating evidence just cannot be stopped, overlooked or ignored.
April 10th, 2013  
D.J
 
This is your own country's past. Remember that when you point your finger at people, there are three fingers pointing at yourself.

On January the 26th 1788 eleven British ships under the command of Captain Arthur Phillip, first Governor of the new colony, anchored on the east coast of Australia at Sydney Cove and raised the British Flag.i Known as the First Fleet the ships sailed from England on the 13th of May 1787. All told, the First Fleet carried 1,500 people comprised of convicts, crew and guards.

The invasion of Australia by the British, both convict and free, has tragic dimensions to It. On the one hand there were the convicts who were forcibly removed, uprooted and exiled from their homeland and, on the other, their presence in Australia, together with that of the free migrants, brought about the displacement of the Indigenous peoples of Australia. Worse than that, in time the Indigenous peoples were to find themselves exiled from their homeland and embroiled in a cultural dislocation, brought about by British and colonial intervention against their peoples, the evidence of which remains only too strongly with us today. Genocide went hand in hand with the policy of eugenics which in turn led to the forced removal of halfcaste children from their families, bringing about an exile upon exile. Indigenous peoples were exiled from their lands and taken into missions and then their children, often the product of rape, though also of long/short standing relationships with the white man, were dragged away from their mothers and taken thousands of miles away to be “educated”, thereby becoming doubly exiled from their familial roots. The stories that emerge from what has become known as “The Stolen Generation” are harrowing. It has often been said that Australia was built on the backs of convict slave labour. Now, we are more enlightened as to who was treated like a slave on their own land:

A whole nation who were deemed less than animals and held prisoners on their own land, with their sovereignty unrecognised by the invader. Exile, double exile, internal exile, there seems to be no name within the paradigms and terminologies of the dislocated, exiled, dispossessed that you use today, for the kind of treatment meted out to the Indigenous peoples of Australia. The same is true of First Nation peoples in all countries invaded by Western Empires; one thinks of North America, Canada and South America. What shocks here is that in the case of the Indigenous peoples of Australia abuse was going on under our noses in the twentieth century and still has not been truly remedied in the present. The harm continues in later generations, affecting their children and grandchildren.

As far as the convicts were concerned, once they had served their sentence, they were free to join society, become small landholders, retailers, labourers, carpenters,
domestics and a few even founded wealthy family dynasties.No such possibility was open to the Indigenous owners of “Terra Nullius”, a term used by the British to occupy Australia and establish their sovereignty over it. They were to remain the “dying race”, an epithet of convenience, and when they did not become extinct they then became “the Aboriginal problem”, but by then the convicts were part of a history that Australia preferred to skeletonise in the cupboard. In recent decades, however, it has become fashionable to have a convict ancestor or, even better two, as it denotes the “Old”, the “First” Australians, as opposed to those who arrived much later.


I'm not blind. I know that abuses are committed. I have fought in this conflict for many years. Violence tends to escalate - no excuse just a fact. All who have fought in an unconventional war know how difficult it is.

I wonder if we'd had this discussion if Israel was founded in 1848 or maybe 1748 ?
April 10th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.J
This is your own country's past. Remember that when you point your finger at people, there are three fingers pointing at yourself.

On January the 26th 1788 eleven British ships under the command of Captain Arthur Phillip, first Governor of the new colony, anchored on the east coast of Australia at Sydney Cove and raised the British Flag.i Known as the First Fleet the ships sailed from England on the 13th of May 1787. All told, the First Fleet carried 1,500 people comprised of convicts, crew and guards.

The invasion of Australia by the British, both convict and free, has tragic dimensions to It. On the one hand there were the convicts who were forcibly removed, uprooted and exiled from their homeland and, on the other, their presence in Australia, together with that of the free migrants, brought about the displacement of the Indigenous peoples of Australia. Worse than that, in time the Indigenous peoples were to find themselves exiled from their homeland and embroiled in a cultural dislocation, brought about by British and colonial intervention against their peoples, the evidence of which remains only too strongly with us today. Genocide went hand in hand with the policy of eugenics which in turn led to the forced removal of halfcaste children from their families, bringing about an exile upon exile. Indigenous peoples were exiled from their lands and taken into missions and then their children, often the product of rape, though also of long/short standing relationships with the white man, were dragged away from their mothers and taken thousands of miles away to be “educated”, thereby becoming doubly exiled from their familial roots. The stories that emerge from what has become known as “The Stolen Generation” are harrowing. It has often been said that Australia was built on the backs of convict slave labour. Now, we are more enlightened as to who was treated like a slave on their own land:

A whole nation who were deemed less than animals and held prisoners on their own land, with their sovereignty unrecognised by the invader. Exile, double exile, internal exile, there seems to be no name within the paradigms and terminologies of the dislocated, exiled, dispossessed that you use today, for the kind of treatment meted out to the Indigenous peoples of Australia. The same is true of First Nation peoples in all countries invaded by Western Empires; one thinks of North America, Canada and South America. What shocks here is that in the case of the Indigenous peoples of Australia abuse was going on under our noses in the twentieth century and still has not been truly remedied in the present. The harm continues in later generations, affecting their children and grandchildren.

As far as the convicts were concerned, once they had served their sentence, they were free to join society, become small landholders, retailers, labourers, carpenters,
domestics and a few even founded wealthy family dynasties.No such possibility was open to the Indigenous owners of “Terra Nullius”, a term used by the British to occupy Australia and establish their sovereignty over it. They were to remain the “dying race”, an epithet of convenience, and when they did not become extinct they then became “the Aboriginal problem”, but by then the convicts were part of a history that Australia preferred to skeletonise in the cupboard. In recent decades, however, it has become fashionable to have a convict ancestor or, even better two, as it denotes the “Old”, the “First” Australians, as opposed to those who arrived much later.


I'm not blind. I know that abuses are committed. I have fought in this conflict for many years. Violence tends to escalate - no excuse just a fact. All who have fought in an unconventional war know how difficult it is.

I wonder if we'd had this discussion if Israel was founded in 1848 or maybe 1748 ?
No of course we wouldn't have, because it was considered as acceptable behaviour at that time.

Your rather inane argument has been answered on this forum a number of times and by me personally at least twice.

When Britain undertook the colonisation of Australia there were no International laws or conventions forbidding it, in fact it was not even considered improper the colonisers viewing it as beneficial to the native population, which in fact for the greater part it has proven to be, as none of the Aboriginal population want to forsake the benefits to return to their nomadic ways. There were at the time a number of other nations doing the same thing and had the Brits not settled Australia, the Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese or Indonesians would have.

In view of what is known now, I think you'll find that our Native population got the best of a bad lot. No, this in no way justifies it, but had someone else colonised it, I think you'll find that it was the best solution all around.

In Australia it was made a Capital offence to murder an Aboriginal in cold blood in 1832, nearly 120 years before Israel was even declared, and they are still killing innocent Arabs to this day. The first whites hung for this offence were in 1838 and they had been on the run in the trackless wastes for over 4 years before being actively hunted down. I defy you to find me one Palestinian who would rather be under Israeli domination than living as an Australian Immigrant.

Just on the news a week ago it was revealed that the Illegal immigrants at present undergoing examination in Australia were costing the Australian taxpayers A$14 million dollars per quarter,... for confectionery, sporting materials, Internet, Tobacco and other home "comforts" alone. There is absolutely no similarity in our situations.
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April 10th, 2013  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
The Palestinians only administer their people, just as the Jewish Councils administered their people in the Ghettos, another totally meaningless Zionazi "factoid". The fact is that Israel is at best regarded by the International community as legally questionable and at worst as an illegally occupied area, the occupiers of which form a pariah state despised and distrusted in all their dealings, their word like that of it's supporters, not being worth the paper it's written on.

You can present your "facts" in pastel colours all dipped in candy coating and rolled in sugar but the fact remains that like the nazis who re wrote their own laws to suit their purposes, Israel is still the worlds worst rogue state regarding Human Rights abuses and outright lies, we needn't even bother about ethic cleansing etc., as in Nazi Germany where persecution of the Jews was 100% legal.

Don't even bother telling us about "legal" anything, to do with this matter, as Israel has been shown to have never abided by any National or International Law, Convention or Ruling of any body other than where it suits their purpose, hence over 200 condemnatory UN resolutions against them.

Nothing you can say or do excuses the Israeli's Nazi like behaviour and that of the US who backs them. To be fair, the US is very slowly realising the error of it's past ways in this regard and more and more we are seeing them falling out of love. No doubt there will come a day when a combination of International moral outrage and common sense on the part of the US will see Israel cut loose.
Amen.

Allways the same sermon.
April 10th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Amen.

Allways the same sermon.
Of course it's the same,... that's because the facts don't change.

Unless of course you are a Hasbara Troll, that being the case, anything at all can be stated as a fact.
April 23rd, 2013  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Of course it's the same,... that's because the facts don't change.
True, but why don't you believe the facts?

Quote:
Unless of course you are a Hasbara Troll, that being the case, anything at all can be stated as a fact.
I'm not a Hasbara Troll, unless you are brainwashed of course.
April 23rd, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
True, but why don't you believe the facts?
Believe them? Why else do I constantly quote them in defiance of your childish attempts at Hasbara.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I'm not a Hasbara Troll, unless you are brainwashed of course.
I don't even have to bother answering that, you have proven to all, that you are, time and time again.
April 24th, 2013  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Believe them? Why else do I constantly quote them in defiance of your childish attempts at Hasbara.
You constantly quote opinions, not facts.

Show me one fact of a Palestinian government before Israel was founded.

Show me one fact that states that the firing of Palestinian rockets at a civilian town is called "defense".

You say it is defense because it is their land, then show me a fact that prooves this like : name of the country, Prime minister, capital, founding date, type of government.

Quote:
I don't even have to bother answering that, you have proven to all, that you are, time and time again.
Again an opinion, not a fact.
April 24th, 2013  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
You constantly quote opinions, not facts.

Show me one fact of a Palestinian government before Israel was founded.

Show me one fact that states that the firing of Palestinian rockets at a civilian town is called "defense".

You say it is defense because it is their land, then show me a fact that prooves this like : name of the country, Prime minister, capital, founding date, type of government.

Again an opinion, not a fact.
I should ignore this inanity as this has been pointed to you out on at least two previous occasions by several persons on this forum. The fact that there was not a Palestinian State has no bearing whatsoever on a people's right to legally resist any illegal occupier of their land.

It's a fact, just that you are too "dense" to realise it.
April 26th, 2013  
charlylynx
 
 

Topic: The real problem with Israel


I think what you all fail to realize or forget is that this is a religious war. Not Zionist vs. Muslims, but good vs. evil. The Jews are fighting for survival against a religion that is determined to kill them all. I mean every man woman and child with glee. When you see old women party in the streets at the fall of the twin towers or an aircraft go down from a suicide bomber you should begin to realize the mind set these people have. I don't mean some of them, I mean a vast majority. The Muslims play so many dirty tricks and manipulate the western minds (so well and easily) that the world is beginning to heed their 'plea' and join in on the hate mongering. Jews do not target schools and civilians directly as the Muslims do and are surrounded by people that hate them and us to the point of madness giving their children up for suicide attacks and worse.
The Bible explains all this and its ultimate outcome and that any nation that supports Israel will prosper and those who don't do not. As we slowly are being taught to join the enemies of Israel you will see our decline increase at a faster rate which is what will happen and is happening now. Most Christians support Israel and pray for their safety, and as Christians become targeted and are persecuted more and more in our country you will see Israel's decline increase till they are finally overcome thru political subterfuge.This too is also prophesied in the Bible as many other things currently occurring in the middle east but the 'new found wealth' of oil is the impetus for the conflict. Israel's newly discovered oilfields will bring even more conflict to their nation as the greed of world leaders including ours will cause further escalation of hostilities to the area. Praying for Israel is our only hope for our nation as well as theirs.
 


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