So why do people hate Israel? - Page 107




 
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November 2nd, 2012  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
You do realise that the Hashemite dynasty goes back to the 5th century right?
If so your argument is that people who's religion (but who have no more racial connection to the region than the fragments of DNA you can find as background noise in 99% of the earths population) abandoned a region 3000 years ago have more right to a land than a people who have lived on the land for the last 1500 years?
The Hashemites came from the Arabian Peninsula and as such are not the native people of Jordan.

There have always been a presense of Jews in what is now called Israel/Palestine and Jerusalem was most of it's history populated by a majority of Jews. And exactly that city is choosen by the Palestinians as their capital, or should I say by muslims because they always want to destroy or capture the symbols af their "enemy".

Quote:
Here is a problem your argument has displayed from day one, it is fragmented and I suspect deliberately incomplete it reminds me of the arguments used in TV shows like Ancient Aliens, you take a fragment of truth combine it with myth, legend and poor science declare it a fact and the use that "fact" to validate the next point when in reality you haven't proven the first "fact".
It is impossible to give a personal view of that conflict with a few words. I have given lots of facts and disproved a lot of lies and distorted truths here.
Show me where I used poor science, legends and myths.

Quote:
So prove to us that:
A: The jews that have immigrated to the region in the last 100 years have a genetic connection to the area that is greater than that of you, I or 99% of the rest of the worlds population because I am prepared to bet that with the human race's spread world wide we all have a background noise level of middle eastern DNA.
Y-chromosomal DNA from Ashkenazi Jews (Germans) is traced back to the Middle East.
There is an abundance of proof that Jews all over the world have their roots in the Middle east.
"This supported the finding that "Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors."" (Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes)

Quote:
B: The the people calling themselves Palestinians do not have this.
We must divide the Palestinians into two groups
1 - those who have their roots in "Palestine" : descendants of Jewish and Christian converts (the others were expelled or killed). These are of the same lineage as the Jews.
2 - Arab Palestinians mostly come from south of the levant.

But you don't need genetics to show where some Palestinians came from. Take a telephone book and look up the familynames. Arab names point to where they came from, a few examples:
"Khamis"= from Bahrain "Salem Hanna Khamis"
"al-Ubayyidi" or "al-Obeidi"= from Sudan "al-ubayyid"
"al-Faruqi"= Mosul Iraq
"al-Araj" = Morocco, a member of the Saadi Dynasty
"al-Husayni" = Saudi Arabia
"Haddadins" = Yemen descended from Ghassanid Christian Arabs
I can give a lot more examples if you want to.


Quote:
C. That the Canaanite empire was a Jewish one as Palestine was a region of said empire earlier than it was an Israelite one.
Israelites and the Canaanites lived in reasonable harmony with each other until the Philistines (not semetic and from Greek origine) invaded their land in the twelfth century bce. The Israelites and the Canaanites eventually became integrated into one people to combat a common enemy.

The first mention of the word Palestine, in fact it was Peleset, was in about 1150 BCE. Neither the Egyptian or Assyrian sources provided clear regional boundaries for the term. But let us asume it was Palestine.

The first Kingdom of Israel was established around the 11th century BCE. That's one century earlier than Peleset. (with no mention of a kingdom or whatever)

Quote:
D. That the biblical account of Exodus is incorrect as that makes "Israel" a region of Egypt and the original Jews by default Egyptian.
I consider the bible as a religious book and not a historical one, although some events described in it are true.

Most sources give the date of the exodus at around 1.300 - 1.400 BCE. Some say it never existed.

Fact is, and Egyptian representations of captives proves this, that the forefathers of the Jews, called Shasu by the Egyptians, were captured when the Egyptians invaded the land where they lived (what is now Israel/Palestine). So, ancesters of Jews were living there before the Egyptians arrived otherwise the Egyptians couldn't have capture them, could they?


Quote:
Basically all you have to do is prove "Jewish" is a race and not just a religion and that they were the original inhabitants of the land by proving the Canaanite empire was solely Jewish in the process you will have disprove the biblical account of Exodus (which does have some archaeological support), good luck.
There's no need to prove that "Jewish" is a race just as there is no need to prove that "Palestinan" is a race. It is very clear that muslim Palestinians are descendants of the Jews and as such do the Jews have the same claim on the land as them and more so against Arab Palestinians who didn't originate from "Israel/Palestine".
Hebrew is a Semitic language spoken by the Jewish people and one of the world’s oldest living languages. Earliest Hebrew texts date from the second millennium B.C.E. and evidence suggests that the Israelite tribes who invaded Canaan spoke Hebrew.
Their religion, Judaism, is one of the oldest monotheistic religions, and the oldest to survive into the present day, spanning more than 3.000 years.
The Hebrew calendar is used in Israel as an official calendar for civil purposes and provides a time frame for agriculture.

As you see, there's plenty of evidence of the Jewish claim to the land.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
But then your dislike of the Palestinians also makes you anti-Semetic as it is a pretty wide brush you are painting with even if the term has been hijacked.
I do not dislike Palestinians, I dislike their religious fanticism and their "blame someone else" culture. It's the only society in the world who begs for a homeland and, after so many opportunities, still don't have one. Ironically, that what they do have now, for the first time ever in their history, is thanks to Israel.
November 2nd, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Umm I think that quote is a modification of a line Charlie Chaplin used in the movie "The Great Dictator (1940)" Dictators free themselves but they enslave the people.



Just a piece of advice, you are never going to learn all there is to know about WW2 so your best bet is to find an aspect of it that interests you and and learn about that and you will find that as you gain more knowledge on a single subject you will learn more of the things around that subject and as such broaden your overall knowledge.
Yeah, my bad...this one! I forgot about the Dictators part. I remember I heard the quote in a video not in a movie. I think it was about the Occupy Wall Street movement.

Yeah, I guess that's what I'm going to do. It's really annoying being blank on a war as great as this one.
November 2nd, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Down, down we go,... deep into into the Zionist dreamtime, that we were there first,... completely ignoring the simple fact that even if it were true, it gives modern day European Jews no justification to take the land of another native population and murder those who resist.
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November 2nd, 2012  
Yossarian
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Down, down we go,... deep into into the Zionist dreamtime, that we were there first,... completely ignoring the simple fact that even if it were true, it gives modern day European Jews no justification to take the land of another native population and murder those who resist.
"We were there first".

If I am standing in the teller line, get just to the counter and step out to go to the bathroom.

Do you think the guy behind me is kindly going to let me step back in front of him minutes later?

I think we have clarity on this scenario now.
November 3rd, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
The Hashemites came from the Arabian Peninsula and as such are not the native people of Jordan.

There have always been a presense of Jews in what is now called Israel/Palestine and Jerusalem was most of it's history populated by a majority of Jews. And exactly that city is choosen by the Palestinians as their capital, or should I say by muslims because they always want to destroy or capture the symbols af their "enemy"....

There are certainly some huge jumps and convenient blurrings going on in that reply.

So let me see if I can grasp this European Jews along with just about everyone else in Europe, Africa and Asia have the same Y chromosome according to your source...
Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to
trace the paternal origins of the Jewish Diaspora. A set of 18
biallelic polymorphisms was genotyped in 1,371 males from 29
populations, including 7 Jewish (Ashkenazi, Roman, North African,
Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian) and 16 non-Jewish
groups from similar geographic locations. The Jewish populations
were characterized by a diverse set of 13 haplotypes that were also
present in non-Jewish populations from Africa, Asia, and Europe.


So in light of this I guess the question should be changed to "what gives Jews more right to the region than anyone else?"



In conclusion what your arguments shows is not that Jews have a claim to the area but rather genetically half the world plus has the same claim to the area which is easily explainable by the fact that it is the most fought over and occupied piece of dirt on the planet for the last 5000 years, the Y chromosome you are selling is little more than what science and electronics call background noise.

Still if we want to skip genetics and revert to the tried and tested "phone book" test I am sure I can also find a large proportion of Israeli family names in phone books from Germany to Los Angeles or are you claiming that the ancient Iraqi's invented the Baghdad Battery to power Darius the Achaemenian' cellphone so he could phone home while on campaign?


As for your claim that Palestinians are descendants of the Jews it is a good try at trivialising Palestinians but I think it more likely that Palestinians and Jews are two subsets of the Canaanite empire, the difference is that when the going got tough one lot got going and the other lot stuck around adapting to the changes in ruling empires and religions to eventually emerge as Palestinians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
"We were there first".

If I am standing in the teller line, get just to the counter and step out to go to the bathroom.

Do you think the guy behind me is kindly going to let me step back in front of him minutes later?

I think we have clarity on this scenario now.
Well maybe minutes later he might if you were lucky but if you came back three weeks later and claimed to be the front of the line you would probably get the bums rush.
November 3rd, 2012  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
There are certainly some huge jumps and convenient blurrings going on in that reply.

So let me see if I can grasp this European Jews along with just about everyone else in Europe, Africa and Asia have the same Y chromosome according to your source...
Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to
trace the paternal origins of the Jewish Diaspora. A set of 18
biallelic polymorphisms was genotyped in 1,371 males from 29
populations, including 7 Jewish (Ashkenazi, Roman, North African,
Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian) and 16 non-Jewish
groups from similar geographic locations. The Jewish populations
were characterized by a diverse set of 13 haplotypes that were also
present in non-Jewish populations from Africa, Asia, and Europe.


So in light of this I guess the question should be changed to "what gives Jews more right to the region than anyone else?"
You better read that report again. If you would have read a little further you would have found this :

"The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring nonJewish communities during and after the Diaspora."

or the summary at the end:

"In summary, the combined results suggest that a major portion of NRY biallelic diversity present in most of the contemporary Jewish communities surveyed here traces to a common Middle Eastern source population several thousand years ago. The implication is that this source population included a large number of distinct paternal and maternal lineages, reflecting genetic variation established in the Middle East at that time. In turn, this source diversity has been maintained within Jewish communities, despite numerous migrations during the Diaspora and long-term residence as isolated subpopulations in numerous geographic locations outside of the Middle East."

Quote:
In conclusion what your arguments shows is not that Jews have a claim to the area but rather genetically half the world plus has the same claim to the area which is easily explainable by the fact that it is the most fought over and occupied piece of dirt on the planet for the last 5000 years, the Y chromosome you are selling is little more than what science and electronics call background noise.
Failed attempt : Y-Chromosome Biallelic Haplogroups

Quote:
Still if we want to skip genetics and revert to the tried and tested "phone book" test I am sure I can also find a large proportion of Israeli family names in phone books from Germany to Los Angeles or are you claiming that the ancient Iraqi's invented the Baghdad Battery to power Darius the Achaemenian' cellphone so he could phone home while on campaign?
Jewish, American or European (and many other) familynames do not point to where they came from. A lot of Arab familynames do. For example, the name Armstrong might point to a American/English familyname but doesn't say anything from where they came from. The familyname al-Lubnani means the Lebanese, they came from Lebanon or Al-fayyumi who came from Faiyum in Egypt.

Quote:
As for your claim that Palestinians are descendants of the Jews it is a good try at trivialising Palestinians but I think it more likely that Palestinians and Jews are two subsets of the Canaanite empire, the difference is that when the going got tough one lot got going and the other lot stuck around adapting to the changes in ruling empires and religions to eventually emerge as Palestinians.
It is genteically proven that native Palestinians have much in common with the Jews, contrary to the ones who came from Arabian countries.
The Jews did found a country (Kingdom of Israel) the Palestinians didn't. But then again there was no people called Palestinians in those days. But maybe you will point to the more historical Philistine (Peleset), but then again they came from....Greece.
November 3rd, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS

or the summary at the end:

"In summary, the combined results suggest that a major portion of NRY biallelic diversity present in most of the contemporary Jewish communities surveyed here traces to a common Middle Eastern source population several thousand years ago. The implication is that this source population included a large number of distinct paternal and maternal lineages, reflecting genetic variation established in the Middle East at that time. In turn, this source diversity has been maintained within Jewish communities, despite numerous migrations during the Diaspora and long-term residence as isolated subpopulations in numerous geographic locations outside of the Middle East."
Ferrari's have seats, all cars have seats therefore all cars are Ferrari's.

That would be the conclusion you are drawing.
But if you take the words Jew and Jewish out of your conclusion and substitute then with "non-Jews from Africa, Asia and Europe" the same conclusion still stands.

All your report shows is that just about everyone has a genetic link to the middle east which is not that hard to explain given that it was a migration path for Homo-sapiens out of Africa to Europe for almost 100,000 years and for the last 5000 years has been the most intensely fought over, colonised and conquered piece of land on earth so the mixture of DNA is not surprising and I suspect you will find exactly the same thing for Palestinians.

I would also point to the report title as verification "Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes"

What does that tells us, well it says Jews are the same as you and I and more directly Palestinians and Syrians.

So lets assume I believe everything you are saying the question still remains,
Roughly 300 years ago my forefathers left their homeland and assuming they just abandoned what they had there do I have the right to go back now and reclaim it?

I suspect you would agree that I do not even though I have a tenuous DNA link and can even point to the bit of dirt they lived on and the name the guy that lived there so why should people who's link to the land is 3000 years out of date and shared by probably 4 billion of the worlds 7 billion people be able to do it?
November 4th, 2012  
VDKMS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Ferrari's have seats, all cars have seats therefore all cars are Ferrari's.

That would be the conclusion you are drawing.
But if you take the words Jew and Jewish out of your conclusion and substitute then with "non-Jews from Africa, Asia and Europe" the same conclusion still stands.

All your report shows is that just about everyone has a genetic link to the middle east which is not that hard to explain given that it was a migration path for Homo-sapiens out of Africa to Europe for almost 100,000 years and for the last 5000 years has been the most intensely fought over, colonised and conquered piece of land on earth so the mixture of DNA is not surprising and I suspect you will find exactly the same thing for Palestinians.

I would also point to the report title as verification "Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes"

What does that tells us, well it says Jews are the same as you and I and more directly Palestinians and Syrians.

So lets assume I believe everything you are saying the question still remains,
Roughly 300 years ago my forefathers left their homeland and assuming they just abandoned what they had there do I have the right to go back now and reclaim it?

I suspect you would agree that I do not even though I have a tenuous DNA link and can even point to the bit of dirt they lived on and the name the guy that lived there so why should people who's link to the land is 3000 years out of date and shared by probably 4 billion of the worlds 7 billion people be able to do it?
You simplify it. It is true that many have traces to the ME but the Jews have more of them. That's why I also gave you the link to the different Y-Chromosome Haplogroups.

May I also point you to the fact that the Jews did not (at first) claim the land. They asked for it and the international community (whether you agree with it or not) gave it to them and the Jews accepted.

Many things went wrong at that time and the region still suffers from it. I think we both agree on that. Many other nations are to blame for this, not only Israelis/Palestinians.

I have always said it was religion that caused the conflict and I think that if the British would have kept the Muslim clerics more in check it would have been much more peacefull.

Do not forget that the (fanatical) muslims killed lots of Palestinians because they sold their property to the Jews. You know and I know that a property has in fact two owners. The citizen with the deed and the country were it resides. I am a Belgian and I bought a property in Spain but the property is still Spanish (not Belgian). So buying properties have no effect on which country it belongs to. But Islam doesn't see it that way, that's why Palestinians were not allowed to sell properties to the Jews because an non-muslim is not allowed to have muslim ground.

Quote:
Bukhari (53:392) - While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews." We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."
(Now you know too who expelled who.)

That's why the "Palestinians" started to act against the immigrating Jews and did nothing against immigrating Arabs (muslims) and it is also written into the Palestinian land laws (although they speak of Israeli and not non-muslim) with the death sentence if convicted. Go fugure.

Read this : The True Identity of the So-called Palestinians
November 4th, 2012  
hamidreza
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS

May I also point you to the fact that the Jews did not (at first) claim the land. They asked for it and the international community (whether you agree with it or not) gave it to them and the Jews accepted.
lol... really?!
November 4th, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
I have always said it was religion that caused the conflict and I think that if the British would have kept the Muslim clerics more in check it would have been much more peacefull.

Do not forget that the (fanatical) muslims killed lots of Palestinians because they sold their property to the Jews. You know and I know that a property has in fact two owners. The citizen with the deed and the country were it resides. I am a Belgian and I bought a property in Spain but the property is still Spanish (not Belgian). So buying properties have no effect on which country it belongs to. But Islam doesn't see it that way, that's why Palestinians were not allowed to sell properties to the Jews because an non-muslim is not allowed to have muslim ground.
Yeah and do not forget that fanatical Christians killed lots of Muslims and lets not forget that fanatical Germans killed lots of everyone and lets not forget that fanatical Jews are killing lots of Palestinians and lets not forget that fanatical [insert race, religion, ideology here] killed lots of [insert race, religion, ideology here] blah blah blah...

Your lack of objectivity is really an encumbrance in a serious discussion every one in this discussion so far has discussed some form of compromise even Spike who represents the more extreme end of the Palestinian cause has concluded that while all land should go back to Palestinian control Israelis could stay in that scenario yet all you give us is an "its all Muslims fault Israel is incapable of wrong" story.

If we could get Redleg to give us a "no Muslims suck" comment to insert after every post you wouldn't need to be here at all.

Basically it is people like you that are preventing peace in the region, every one else in this thread I believe could reach a compromise that would see both people living there peacefully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
May I also point you to the fact that the Jews did not (at first) claim the land. They asked for it and the international community (whether you agree with it or not) gave it to them and the Jews accepted.
So now you are abandoning the "Historical connection" argument?
If they did not claim the land then your argument of justification on historical grounds falls apart because you do not have to ask to be given something you can prove you own.

Just for fun though check out this page
Netanyahu skeptical of Abbas hint of no return for refugees
but don't bother about the actual news report read the comments below and you will see which way the world is trending in the Israeli/Palestinian case.
 


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