So why do people hate Israel? - Page 105




 
--
 
October 30th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
Morality is not something either side in this argument can use in their defense.
All justice is based on morality and as such, that means that most of our non commercial law is the same so what you say is essentially untrue. If there's no morality there's no justice (as distinct from Law) and therefore no solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
In my opinion the simplest answer, the answer with the most likelihood of success and the answer that has the least likelihood of coming back to bite us on the butt in the future is the 2 State option with enough interdependency to encourage a one state solution further down the track and to be perfectly honest I think even the Palestinians see this as well but as usual no one can get Israel to the table in good faith.
A "two state solution is not in a "solution" at all, it's just another way of provoking the Palestinians and avoiding having to do what is right. We all know that firstly it's not just, and secondly, because of that it could never work. So, if as you say, "we don't want this to bite us on the bum further down the track", we must do what is right, instead of what just happens to be politically convenient at this time.

Let's say, I'm a heavily connected underworld thug with a long record of physical violence and murder, and I steal everything you own. When I'm finally caught, the beak says, "we'll have a two party solution here , you can both share the possessions peacefully"... Yeah, righto Monty I agree it's certainly an easy way out, and it would definitely involve both parties, but it would only ever be a solution for one of them. It all comes back to what I've been saying all along, "No justice, no solution" it's pretty simple really.

We know the Palestinian's claim is right, and so do the Israelis hence their constant attempts to enlarge their population in the hope that it will just become "all too much trouble" and we'll just walk away and leave them to their ill gotten gains. All this procrastination and p!ssing about by the Israelis and their supporters fools no one. (Except of course those with a vested interest)

There is only one way that a two State solution could possibly work, and that is if Israel was moved elsewhere, where they were wanted.

Any takers,... No, I didn't think so.
October 30th, 2012  
VDKMS
 
The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is the most complex in this world because it is full of misconceptions.

First, there's no such thing as "they owned the land". They (Jews, Christians, future Palestinians, Arabs...) just lived there. Some of them had proof of ownership others rented the place but all the land (between the borders) belonged to a state, nation, country.

Historical facts proof there was once a country called Israel (Jews) and never one that was called Palestine (Palestinians).

Many argue that the land was stolen by Jewish immigrants. If that is true then why are they silent about the Arab immigrants?

There always has been a Jewish presence in that region. The Arabs only came there when they invaded the region and expelled everyone who did not convert to the new religion called Islam. So the Jews just came back to claim what was once theirs.

Another misconception is that it is about land. It is not. If the European/Russian immigrants would have been muslim there wouldn't have been any problem. (that's why Arab immigrants were allowed and Jewish not). It is about religion and ideology (Islam is both).

Many blame Israel for not making peace, but how do you make peace with someone who wants your destruction? Let's not forget that it is written in the covenant of Hamas to destroy Israel (that's in fact a decleration of war) and Palestinian textbooks do not mention Israel (Jerusalem and Palestine are not mentionend in the Koran but that's propably "forgotten"). Many powerfull clerics in the Arab world talk openly about the destruction of Israel.

But do the Palestinians really want a country of their own? They didn't rebelled against the Ottoman Turks (Jews did), they didn't fight with the allies to liberate their "country" (Jews did), they didn't accept when it was given to them bu the UN (Jews did), they didn't ask the Arabs to get their land back when Jordan and Egypt annexed/occupied it and they refused when Israel wanted to give it to them at Camp David.

Another misconception are the refugees. In history all refugee problems faded out but the Palestinian one. Why? They are the only refugees ever whose descendants are also counted as refugees.(the UN violates their own rules by doing so) and the only ones who did not or were not allowed to integrate. They still live in modern concentration camps and blame Israel, not knowing that their ancesters fled because they were told to do so by their Arab "friends". The ones who did return to Israel live a life that is better than that of the average Palestinian or Arab citizen.

Another problem are all the lies that are being told. Many "icons of Israeli atrocities" are proven to be false. The famous NY Times photo, the Muhammad al-Durrah incident, The Massacre At Deir Yassin. But firing rockets at Jewish civilian towns is regarded as "defense".

I used to be a supporter of the two states solution but now I have my doubts that that will bring peace. Some believe we should give the Jews what was promised to them and drive the Hashemites out of Jordan and back to where they came from (Saudi Arabia) and give Jordan back to the people who always lived there, the (now called) Palestinians.

Maybe we have to wait until the Arabs run out of oil and that there's no more money to support terrorism. A Palestinian state? They already fought a civil war before they even had a country. Do such rulers deserve a country? They don't care about their citizens, wherever they live.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ByJb7QQ9U&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ByJb7QQ9U&feature=related[/ame]
October 30th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I am sorry I do not agree and using South Africa as an example of what can be achieved is not a good one---snip
MontyB, I wasn't quoting the South African experience as the ideal solution, but as an example of the fact that it is unwise to say that certain things will never happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
The answer is no one therefore what you are asking for will never happen
--
October 31st, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I don't know if you can't read, don't read, or are just being obtuse, but what I have said is the standard practice in every first world country on earth. When a criminal is punished his family is not exempt from any side effects of that punishment, and any profit or possessions gained as a result of a crime are forfeit to their rightful owners. Like it or not, that is the law as it stands.

If you try to burn down someone else's house and the fire gets away and kills your children, you can't blame the house owner.

You obviously have not read what I said about "Kicking out" the Israelis in Post #1031, I think that it's time you started to read what I'm actually saying, instead of what you think I'm saying. It is quite clear that you are not reading what I say, so there is no purpose in me answering you again.

If the Palestinians had their land returned to them, and they had the UN support they deserve, I think that the Israelis would leave of their own free will. It would get rather cosy for the Israelis once they had been disarmed by the legitimate government and the Palestinians were allowed to return to their homes, supported by that government.

Never say never,... I remember a time when that was said of South Africa too. All it will take is for enough people to demand that their politicians get a bit of moral backbone and demand that the right thing is done.

If the UN were to have taken your attitude about what could have been realistically achieved in 1947 Israel would never have got where it is now. The only reason they have achieved what they have, is that the Zionists lied (what else)?, and always fully intended to ethnically cleanse Palestine of it's legitimate owners. Y'know what they say,... "One good turn deserves another".
I can read and I do read and I'm not being obtuse. Why would the family be blamed for the crime of one? That just doesn't sound fair. It absolutely isn't. If your brother or whatever committed a crime...why would you be blamed for it? It's not your fault, is it?? Possessions gained through crime, I agree with you. And I did state that the Palestinians take it back. You act as if I say no the Israelis keep it. You're wrong, because I did say multiple times that the Palestinians get their possessions AND land.

"If you try to burn down someone else's house and the fire gets away and kills your children, you can't blame the house owner."

I don't see what this has to do with this discussion. But yeah, I blame myself for killing my children. The house owner gets nothing to do with it.

"If the Palestinians had their land returned to them, and they had the UN support they deserve, I think that the Israelis would leave of their own free will. It would get rather cosy for the Israelis once they had been disarmed by the legitimate government and the Palestinians were allowed to return to their homes, supported by that government."

That's a possibility, sure. The Israelis would leave of their own free will....sure, we're not to be blamed. They leaved off their free will. Like this, probably they solved one of the problems by themselves.

It might not. As far as I know, the Israelis are there for religion...I guess, that if they just get the right of practicing their religion freely they would be fine. But, that's just a possibility and I could be wrong.

"If the UN were to have taken your attitude about what could have been realistically achieved in 1947 Israel would never have got where it is now. The only reason they have achieved what they have, is that the Zionists lied (what else)?, and always fully intended to ethnically cleanse Palestine of it's legitimate owners. Y'know what they say,... "One good turn deserves another"."

I'll be honest with you. I don't know about the history of Palestine/Israel. I'm only discussing the fate of the Israeli CITIZENS. But, those in the UN know the history and I can't argue their decision. The Zionists are a disgusting entity and I hate them. Maybe I don't know their history but I know mine enough to hate them.

I still remember after the 1967 war when Golda Meir said "The Sinai is now Israel and it is to be settled by Israelis." And Moshe Dayan who said "We do not need peace on paper, the peace we want was already achieved. And there's nothing now left for the Arabs except to plead for mercy."

And then the Israelis say "Oh, we gave you back the Sinai for peace!" What a bunch of bullocks!! I thought they had their peace already without paper. They just want peace by military dominance. Their theory is to be safe on the cost of surrounding states using their military.

So, please don't think for a moment that I might possibly have a glimpse of sympathy for those Zionists no matter what happens to them.
October 31st, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
I can read and I do read and I'm not being obtuse. Why would the family be blamed for the crime of one? That just doesn't sound fair. It absolutely isn't. If your brother or whatever committed a crime...why would you be blamed for it? It's not your fault, is it?? Possessions gained through crime, I agree with you. And I did state that the Palestinians take it back. You act as if I say no the Israelis keep it. You're wrong, because I did say multiple times that the Palestinians get their possessions AND land.
Well, why do you keep asking what is going to happen to the Israelis? Who cares, that is their problem, they went there and stole the land and they will have to find somewhere else, somewhere where they actually belong, like where they came from. It's not our worry that they left their homes in Europe voluntarily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senojekips
"If you try to burn down someone else's house and the fire gets away and kills your children, you can't blame the house owner."
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
I don't see what this has to do with this discussion. But yeah, I blame myself for killing my children. The house owner gets nothing to do with it.
This is what is known as a "simile" in the English language, it is used as an example to demonstrate the same principles as the point you are trying to make. In this case showing that you can't blame others if you steal their land and murder those who resist, and then the result backfires on you, and hurts your own people, you have no one to blame but yourself, the same as in the simile that I gave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
That's a possibility, sure. The Israelis would leave of their own free will....sure, we're not to be blamed. They leaved off their free will. Like this, probably they solved one of the problems by themselves.
This is the most likely scenario, as I can't imagine an Israeli family living in a house once the Palestinians move back in there. As for the "settlements" they would have to be dismantled as they are on farming and grazing land that the Palestinians have used for centuries, although this is one possibility where they could perhaps remain, so long as they paid rent to the Palestinian families who previously used it or they are allowed to buy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
It might not. As far as I know, the Israelis are there for religion...I guess, that if they just get the right of practicing their religion freely they would be fine. But, that's just a possibility and I could be wrong.
I see nothing wrong with that, Arabs have allowed peaceful Jews to practice their religion in their midst for centuries. So long as people are respectful virtually all Arabs are well known for their generous hospitality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
I'll be honest with you. I don't know about the history of Palestine/Israel. I'm only discussing the fate of the Israeli CITIZENS. But, those in the UN know the history and I can't argue their decision. The Zionists are a disgusting entity and I hate them. Maybe I don't know their history but I know mine enough to hate them.

I still remember after the 1967 war when Golda Meir said "The Sinai is now Israel and it is to be settled by Israelis." And Moshe Dayan who said "We do not need peace on paper, the peace we want was already achieved. And there's nothing now left for the Arabs except to plead for mercy."

And then the Israelis say "Oh, we gave you back the Sinai for peace!" What a bunch of bullocks!! I thought they had their peace already without paper. They just want peace by military dominance. Their theory is to be safe on the cost of surrounding states using their military.

So, please don't think for a moment that I might possibly have a glimpse of sympathy for those Zionists no matter what happens to them.
I am of Jewish descent, my Great Grandfather bought land in Palestine in 1852 and moved his family there in 1855 immediately after my Grandfather was born in London. According to family lore, they lived among their Arab neighbours in peace until the 1890s when the Zionists arrived in the area and started making trouble, over the next 100 years all but the descendants of two families in the second generation have migrated to Australia, where only about half of the present generation practice Judaism.

I get on very well with my Jewish relatives and they are well aware of my views on Israel. They are very civilised and honourable people and I have enormous respect and love for them, I just can't stand Zionists, because they are the Westboro Baptists of Judaism.
October 31st, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Well, why do you keep asking what is going to happen to the Israelis? Who cares, that is their problem, they went there and stole the land and they will have to find somewhere else, somewhere where they actually belong, like where they came from. It's not our worry that they left their homes in Europe voluntarily.
I think the reason most people ask this question is because people want to see an end to this mess rather than simply moving it elsewhere.

Lets assume everything you want happens and lets assume you don't care about about the Israeli's who gets to inherit mess, should the Germans and Poles have to find homes for them since many of them are descended from there?

It sucks that the Palestinians will lose out but I still think a state based on the 1967 borders and the security that goes along with statehood ie a chance at normal lives for them and the generations that follow has to be better than what they have now or had for the last 60 years.
October 31st, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I think the reason most people ask this question is because people want to see an end to this mess rather than simply moving it elsewhere.

Lets assume everything you want happens and lets assume you don't care about about the Israeli's who gets to inherit mess, should the Germans and Poles have to find homes for them since many of them are descended from there?

It sucks that the Palestinians will lose out but I still think a state based on the 1967 borders and the security that goes along with statehood ie a chance at normal lives for them and the generations that follow has to be better than what they have now or had for the last 60 years.
The Palestinians have suffered for 64 years and continue to suffer a far worse fate than anything that could befall the Israelis. Many of the Israeli families just walked off propertythat they owned in Europe, to go and steal the land of others. Personally I don't care where they go, as there are few places they can go where the current populations will allow them to carry on as they are in Palestine. The US is the number one supporter of Israel, why don't they just give the Israelis a homeland in the US, after all, Israel is only as big as some of their larger ranches. Think of the talent and money that would flow into US coffers.

Of course it sucks,... so why is it that the Palestinians should lose out, after all, they are the victims? If Israel were to lose out, at least some justice would be seen to be done. The complete lack of honesty, and any real desire to see a true and just solution could be no better demonstrated than here in this thread, where it seems more people are interested in the "possible" fate of the aggressors than what is actually happening to the victims, and has been happening to them for over 60 years.
October 31st, 2012  
VDKMS
 
Anyone thought about the fact that it is the Arabs that have to leave instead of the Jews? The Jews have a historical connection to the region Palestine. There have been Jews living there from ancient times. The Arabs on the other hand are the real invaders. They do not have a historical connection with the region Palestine and they also brought with them a religion and ideology that up until today is responsible for the misery in the region of Palestine. What is now Israel, Gaza, West Bank (or should I say Samaria and Judea) and Jordan was to be given to the Jews and Palestinians. The "Palestinians attacked the Jews but who attacked the Hashemites who confiscated Jordan (which is still called Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan) from the "Palestinians"? No one. When they annexed the West Bank where were the rockets and suicide bombers? But when Israel occupied that same place then the rockets and suicide bombers came into action. The land was the same, religion and ideology were different.
October 31st, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDKMS
Anyone thought about the fact that it is the Arabs that have to leave instead of the Jews? The Jews have a historical connection to the region Palestine. There have been Jews living there from ancient times. The Arabs on the other hand are the real invaders. They do not have a historical connection with the region Palestine and they also brought with them a religion and ideology that up until today is responsible for the misery in the region of Palestine. What is now Israel, Gaza, West Bank (or should I say Samaria and Judea) and Jordan was to be given to the Jews and Palestinians. The "Palestinians attacked the Jews but who attacked the Hashemites who confiscated Jordan (which is still called Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan) from the "Palestinians"? No one. When they annexed the West Bank where were the rockets and suicide bombers? But when Israel occupied that same place then the rockets and suicide bombers came into action. The land was the same, religion and ideology were different.
I read Hans Christian Andersen's works once does that make me Danish?
I was baptised as Church of England what claim to England does that give me or at least how much land am I entitled to for that?
My family originally came from somewhere in Scandinavia does that provide an automatic right evict anyone living on land I have a "historical connection" to?
Since the bible has its roots in the region would it not be just as fair to say that any Christians wanting to live there as well can use the "Historical connection" argument as well?

Seriously mate it is time to grow up and stop hiding behind biblical myths and fairy stories because if we are going down that path we will be turning the planet over to monkeys before long.

Personally no matter how much I believe in a two state option I still believe that it is the Palestinians that have lost out here and if there was any realistic way Spike's one state idea's would work I would back them entirely.
November 1st, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Well, why do you keep asking what is going to happen to the Israelis? Who cares, that is their problem, they went there and stole the land and they will have to find somewhere else, somewhere where they actually belong, like where they came from. It's not our worry that they left their homes in Europe voluntarily.



This is what is known as a "simile" in the English language, it is used as an example to demonstrate the same principles as the point you are trying to make. In this case showing that you can't blame others if you steal their land and murder those who resist, and then the result backfires on you, and hurts your own people, you have no one to blame but yourself, the same as in the simile that I gave.

This is the most likely scenario, as I can't imagine an Israeli family living in a house once the Palestinians move back in there. As for the "settlements" they would have to be dismantled as they are on farming and grazing land that the Palestinians have used for centuries, although this is one possibility where they could perhaps remain, so long as they paid rent to the Palestinian families who previously used it or they are allowed to buy it.

I see nothing wrong with that, Arabs have allowed peaceful Jews to practice their religion in their midst for centuries. So long as people are respectful virtually all Arabs are well known for their generous hospitality.

I am of Jewish descent, my Great Grandfather bought land in Palestine in 1852 and moved his family there in 1855 immediately after my Grandfather was born in London. According to family lore, they lived among their Arab neighbours in peace until the 1890s when the Zionists arrived in the area and started making trouble, over the next 100 years all but the descendants of two families in the second generation have migrated to Australia, where only about half of the present generation practice Judaism.

I get on very well with my Jewish relatives and they are well aware of my views on Israel. They are very civilised and honourable people and I have enormous respect and love for them, I just can't stand Zionists, because they are the Westboro Baptists of Judaism.
"Well, why do you keep asking what is going to happen to the Israelis? Who cares,"

I care. I'm a human being and they are humans.

I know it's a simile, I understand. I just didn't get what you meant.

Well...for the scenario, one can only expect. If that's what happened, they solved the problem for us. I'm a little 50 50 for that. Since as far as I know, it's for the religion. I don't know for sure.

From my experience with Jewish people since I work in a Jewish community, they can understand very well that you dislike or hate Israel as a POLITICAL opinion or an ethical/humane one. But, if you just say "I hate Israel" and that's it, they start getting a whole lot of thoughts about you that are untrue. My first Israeli friend started talking to me about the history between us and them. My reply to him was like this "I know you love your country, and I'm sure you also know that I love my country. My country and yours share a history book written by blood instead of ink. If we are to get along, you don't talk about the history and neither do I. Because if we do, we're going to be opponents rather than friends." And he just totally understood it.

I might be wrong about this, I'm not sure. But, for some reason...I think the issues date back to the British empire. In 1935, they divided Iraq into 2 countries, Iraq and Kuwait. And that ended up in conflicts between both parties. They divided Palestine into Israel/Palestine. They divided Hindustan into India, Pakistan and various other countries. Maybe by the time, they just wanted the ME to stay in conflict. I mean no offense to any British member or non-member on this forum. I did state and I state again that I might be wrong and I'm not sure.
 


Similar Topics
Israel rightfully own the West Bank .
Israel strikes Beirut suburb, tightens blockade
A conversation with Iranian dissident (MUST READ)
Palestinians
American racism