So why do people hate Israel? - Page 104




 
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October 27th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Well...kicking them out of where they were born isn't suffering? What did they do? As we said before, it's the Palestinian land. If the "Israelis" are willing to live according to the Palestinian law...sure. If they don't like it, they leave. At least we have to give them a choice.

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You don't need to make anything simple, you just need to read what I said.

If they are being kicked out, it is not our fault or that of the Palestinians, it is the fault of the criminals that committed the crime in the first place. Plus, if you read every comment I have ever made on this forum, nowhere will you ever find that I have said the Israelis must be kicked out, but I did say that the Palestinians must be given back their land and possessions. If you know a way to do that without the Israelis having to give up what was stolen please let me know. Your plan just further punishes the Palestinians, it doesn't solve anything as the loss of their land and their possessions is what is the cause of the problem.

If you steal a car and give it to your son or he inherits it from you, when the crime is uncovered, the vehicle is given back to the the person from whom it was stolen, even though your son never stole it he is not allowed to keep the car or even a part of the car.
October 29th, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
You don't need to make anything simple, you just need to read what I said.

If they are being kicked out, it is not our fault or that of the Palestinians, it is the fault of the criminals that committed the crime in the first place. Plus, if you read every comment I have ever made on this forum, nowhere will you ever find that I have said the Israelis must be kicked out, but I did say that the Palestinians must be given back their land and possessions. If you know a way to do that without the Israelis having to give up what was stolen please let me know. Your plan just further punishes the Palestinians, it doesn't solve anything as the loss of their land and their possessions is what is the cause of the problem.

If you steal a car and give it to your son or he inherits it from you, when the crime is uncovered, the vehicle is given back to the the person from whom it was stolen, even though your son never stole it he is not allowed to keep the car or even a part of the car.
Okay, it's the fault of the CRIMINALS. Why do you want to blame the non-criminal because of the criminal? If they're to be kicked out, it would be because the Palestinians don't want them to live with them. Other than that, I don't see any valid reason to kick them out for. The Palestinians must be given back their land and possessions, we didn't disagree on that. The best way would be that the Israelis remain in their homes, but they pay the Palestinians some money annually or monthly or whatever. Or they can provide the Palestinians with something in return. If both parties accept then well, fair trade.

The Israelis WILL NOT be OWNING. It's all property of the Palestinians with the Israelis living in it WITH THE CONSENT of the Palestinians.
October 29th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Okay, it's the fault of the CRIMINALS. Why do you want to blame the non-criminal because of the criminal? .
I don't blame them, any blame falls on the heads of the criminals, that's the whole point. Don't ask me, ask the criminals why they put their families in this position.

As I pointed out earlier, this is the normal way all First world countries deal with these things, it is a basic precept of Common Law. We don't say, "Oh we can't punish criminals because their families will suffer.

Conversely, you are saying that the victims (Palestinians) should get no justice because it would upset the families of the criminals. No,... the criminal's families suffer because of the fact that the criminals stole the land, not because the victims are legally and morally entitled to have their land and possessions returned to them.

If the criminals never wanted this to happen they should not have committed the crimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
The Israelis WILL NOT be OWNING. It's all property of the Palestinians with the Israelis living in it WITH THE CONSENT of the Palestinians.
What on earth are you thinking about,... that's the exact reason why the Palestinians want the land back, so they can go back and live there, they don't want to stay in the refugee camps so the Israelis can remain on their land, they want to go back to their land where the Israelis are now living, so that they can farm the land, how are they going to do that if the Israelis are living there building their "settlements" and roads over the Palestinian's grazing land and fruit orchards.

There was no "spare land" 100 years ago (although the Zionists insisted that there was), and no room for a second population, that is the reason why the Zionists had to steal the land from it's rightful owners in the first place.
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October 29th, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I don't blame them, any blame falls on the heads of the criminals, that's the whole point. Don't ask me, ask the criminals why they put their families in this position.

As I pointed out earlier, this is the normal way all First world countries deal with these things, it is a basic precept of Common Law. We don't say, "Oh we can't punish criminals because their families will suffer.
Actually we do in many respects, more often than not a sentence will be reduced or adapted to suit a families situation, instead of just applying maximum sentences people will be given "suspended" or "Home" sentences (obviously not for major cases like murder though) rather than have a family destroyed.

As far as this discussion goes however I think you are missing the biggest point being made here, who would enforce or even undertake the expulsion of Jews from Israel and where would many of them go?
The answer is no one therefore what you are asking for will never happen.

So given that reality indicates that you can't exterminate the Jews or the Palestinians and you cant deport either of them you are left with one option a compromise and part of compromise is that in the end neither win but both gain enough to make them change direction.

Is this unfortunate for Palestinians wanting to go home yes it is but at some point you have to decide what can realistically be achieved and that must surely be a two state solution and personally I think it is not unreasonable to base the Palestinian state on the 1967 borders with some land traded to provide a more contiguous state.
October 29th, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
I don't blame them, any blame falls on the heads of the criminals, that's the whole point. Don't ask me, ask the criminals why they put their families in this position.

As I pointed out earlier, this is the normal way all First world countries deal with these things, it is a basic precept of Common Law. We don't say, "Oh we can't punish criminals because their families will suffer.

Conversely, you are saying that the victims (Palestinians) should get no justice because it would upset the families of the criminals. No,... the criminal's families suffer because of the fact that the criminals stole the land, not because the victims are legally and morally entitled to have their land and possessions returned to them.

If the criminals never wanted this to happen they should not have committed the crimes.



What on earth are you thinking about,... that's the exact reason why the Palestinians want the land back, so they can go back and live there, they don't want to stay in the refugee camps so the Israelis can remain on their land, they want to go back to their land where the Israelis are now living, so that they can farm the land, how are they going to do that if the Israelis are living there building their "settlements" and roads over the Palestinian's grazing land and fruit orchards.

There was no "spare land" 100 years ago (although the Zionists insisted that there was), and no room for a second population, that is the reason why the Zionists had to steal the land from it's rightful owners in the first place.
Well.."Ask the criminals why they put them in this position" So, let's grab every serial killer and blame their families for the deaths. You're talking as if the family has 1 big brain and all the bodies are connected, which is not true. Every man got his own brain, so, the one who committed the crime gets punished the family have nothing to do with it.

"Oh, we can't punish criminals cuz their families will suffer."

Well, that's not what I was trying to deliver. Punish the criminal, I don't disagree, I do totally agree. Don't put the families or any relatives into it. The fault of 1 man doesn't make the sky black.

Well..the Palestinians want, how did you know. If what you're saying is true, what I said gives them the choice of kicking the Israelis out and they keep their possessions. What I said doesn't keep the Israelis by force. If what you're saying is true, they do can get their possessions.
October 30th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Well.."Ask the criminals why they put them in this position" So, let's grab every serial killer and blame their families for the deaths. You're talking as if the family has 1 big brain and all the bodies are connected, which is not true. Every man got his own brain, so, the one who committed the crime gets punished the family have nothing to do with it.

"Oh, we can't punish criminals cuz their families will suffer."

Well, that's not what I was trying to deliver. Punish the criminal, I don't disagree, I do totally agree. Don't put the families or any relatives into it. The fault of 1 man doesn't make the sky black.

Well..the Palestinians want, how did you know. If what you're saying is true, what I said gives them the choice of kicking the Israelis out and they keep their possessions. What I said doesn't keep the Israelis by force. If what you're saying is true, they do can get their possessions.
I don't know if you can't read, don't read, or are just being obtuse, but what I have said is the standard practice in every first world country on earth. When a criminal is punished his family is not exempt from any side effects of that punishment, and any profit or possessions gained as a result of a crime are forfeit to their rightful owners. Like it or not, that is the law as it stands.

If you try to burn down someone else's house and the fire gets away and kills your children, you can't blame the house owner.

You obviously have not read what I said about "Kicking out" the Israelis in Post #1031, I think that it's time you started to read what I'm actually saying, instead of what you think I'm saying. It is quite clear that you are not reading what I say, so there is no purpose in me answering you again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
As far as this discussion goes however I think you are missing the biggest point being made here, who would enforce or even undertake the expulsion of Jews from Israel and where would many of them go?
The answer is no one therefore what you are asking for will never happen.
If the Palestinians had their land returned to them, and they had the UN support they deserve, I think that the Israelis would leave of their own free will. It would get rather cosy for the Israelis once they had been disarmed by the legitimate government and the Palestinians were allowed to return to their homes, supported by that government.

Never say never,... I remember a time when that was said of South Africa too. All it will take is for enough people to demand that their politicians get a bit of moral backbone and demand that the right thing is done.

If the UN were to have taken your attitude about what could have been realistically achieved in 1947 Israel would never have got where it is now. The only reason they have achieved what they have, is that the Zionists lied (what else)?, and always fully intended to ethnically cleanse Palestine of it's legitimate owners. Y'know what they say,... "One good turn deserves another".
October 30th, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
I am sorry I do not agree and using South Africa as an example of what can be achieved is not a good one given the exodus of white South Africans that has taken place and the continuing corruption of successive South African governments would indicate the the country is well on the way to becoming a standard African failed state.

I am still convinced that the only chance for peace and for an eventual single state is the formation of two states inter-dependent on each other.
October 30th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyB
I am sorry I do not agree and using South Africa as an example of what can be achieved is not a good one given the exodus of white South Africans that has taken place and the continuing corruption of successive South African governments would indicate the the country is well on the way to becoming a standard African failed state.

I am still convinced that the only chance for peace and for an eventual single state is the formation of two states inter-dependent on each other.
But you entirely ignore that it was the moral thing to do and that being their country they can do with it what they wish, and they chose to do it that way.

And you also answered your own previous question regarding what would happen with the present Israelis living there now.
October 30th, 2012  
MontyB
 
 
Morality is not something either side in this argument can use in their defense.
As for an exodus of Israelis well no offense to the South African community but we have enough now all wandering around with hideous accents and knives (god only knows why South Africans seem to think they need to carry knives) I really don't want 5 million Israelis added to that mix.

In my opinion the simplest answer, the answer with the most likelihood of success and the answer that has the least likelihood of coming back to bite us on the butt in the future is the 2 State option with enough interdependency to encourage a one state solution further down the track and to be perfectly honest I think even the Palestinians see this as well but as usual no one can get Israel to the table in good faith.
October 30th, 2012  
BritinBritain
 
 
There is a lot of misconception in South Africa of who owns what. The ANC claims of whites on "black land" is bullsh!te. In area's like the Cape there were no Zulu or Khosa tribes until after whites had landed and settled.

In my opinion the so called "rainbow nation" has been a complete and utter failure, farmers are being murdered daily. Some have said that the farm murders have been orchestrated by the ANC to drive white farmers from their farms. Its got to the point now that where South Africa use to export food, its crossed the line where South Africa has been forced to import food.

I have to agree with Monty on this one.

The reason why South Africans carry knives, they are still in the "self protection" mindset of South Africa.
 


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