So why do people hate Israel? - Page 103




 
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October 26th, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
Correct, and the Israelis have always known that, it's just that they chose to ignore the obvious in the hope that it would go away, and it hasn't, it's just getting worse with much of the world now held to ransom with global terror as the Palestinians only effective weapon.

The land as a new Palestinian state, their homes, or sites where they were, and control of that land.

Of course, this is the case in all countries, they get to decide who stays. Your country does it, my country does it and the new Palestinian state should also have the right to control who lives in their country. It's not their fault that most of the Israelis have treated them like animals in their own land and soured the possibility of any smooth transition.

All of your posts seem to indicate that you do, as you seem very reluctant to see justice done in an honest attempt to resolve the issues here.

Any new Palestinian state would go bankrupt just with the expense of running trials and building prisons to accommodate the criminals, plus many of them are now long dead and there's no hope of justice being done to them.


The Israelis always planned to steal the land and drive out the legitimate owners, as has been shown here many times, organisations like Hamas, Black September, and Al Quaeda only arose and were accepted by the people as a result of the fact that they were the only groups willing to fight for what the Palestinian people actually wanted.

Had the Israelis even treated the Palestinians with some degree of respect and made the slightest effort to understand their point of view, none of these organisations would have ever seen the light of day. But instead they decided upon the path of ethnic cleansing and humiliation of a proud people who had a legitimate claim,... and it not only back fired on them, but it has dragged the world into a needless on going series of wars and the constant fear of global terrorism.

It's time to face the facts,... it's not going to get any better until justice is seen to be done.
Not really, you keep saying that I don't want justice while you just want a 1 armed justice. Why do the trials have to be done by Palestinians? The trials can be done by the UN since Israelis broke international law, rules of engagement...etc. Many of them are long dead, true. But, some of them are still alive and if the ones alive got trialed and punished, if someone else thought of doing like them, he/she will think a multiple times. They will know that if they commit a crime, their destiny will be like the ones who did the same before.

"The Israelis always planned to steal the land and drive out the legitimate owners, as has been shown here many times, organisations like Hamas, Black September, and Al Quaeda only arose and were accepted by the people as a result of the fact that they were the only groups willing to fight for what the Palestinian people actually wanted. "

Agreed. Although I don't know about Al Qaeda.
October 26th, 2012  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Hopefully, this gets reached by outsiders. Something like the UN. They recognize Palestinians as the real land owners, assign multinational forces to protect the rights of the Palestinians.
Yes, I like the concept of that. What many do is to try to solve all problems at the same time. But there is a problem, outsiders can only push them in the right direction, not solve the problem. One approach would be to first solve urgent problems (Gaza, the humanitarian disaster, I know a guy sitting there, water is huge problem, they cannot drink the water without filters, these filters are a scarcity, electricity is another problem so I have only sporadic contacts with him) The idea which may work is to change the Israelis attitude toward Hamas, if they are removed from the terrorist list and recognized as the legitimate government/authority in Gaza. To solve the humanitarian problem in Gaza is first on the agenda, but the solution must include the Israelis.
October 26th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Not really, you keep saying that I don't want justice while you just want a 1 armed justice.
How can it not be "one armed" there is a criminal and a victim. You can't charge the victim for attempting to defend himself against his assailant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Why do the trials have to be done by Palestinians?
Please quote where i said that or even anything that could be vaguely construed as having said that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
The trials can be done by the UN since Israelis broke international law, rules of engagement...etc. Many of them are long dead, true. But, some of them are still alive and if the ones alive got trialed and punished, if someone else thought of doing like them, he/she will think a multiple times. They will know that if they commit a crime, their destiny will be like the ones who did the same before.
No way, the UN should be completely ineligible, as they would have a serious conflict of interest being the organisation who were mainly responsible for the problem in the first place, but I would say that the International Courts of Justice could rule on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
"The Israelis always planned to steal the land and drive out the legitimate owners, as has been shown here many times, organisations like Hamas, Black September, and Al Quaeda only arose and were accepted by the people as a result of the fact that they were the only groups willing to fight for what the Palestinian people actually wanted. "

Agreed. Although I don't know about Al Qaeda.
Al Quaeda is an extremist Islamic organisation who came about to try and defend Muslim interests, against a very pro Israeli Western alliance.

These groups (all of them) are extremists and only really appeal to a minority of Muslims, however the remainder find themselves with no alternative so they put up with them just to get the job done. I don't agree with their actions either, but it does not preclude me from being able to see why they do what they do. If I were in the Palestinian's position, I'd support their actions in a heartbeat.
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October 26th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
How many conflict resolutions have you participated in? The Palestinians are not uneducated, but you are.
I really don't know which is your greater skill, your unfathomable ignorance or your startling arrogance, but you use them both very well.

Obviously you have never participated in any successful problem resolution issues as you don't have the vaguest idea of the requirements to successful and lasting resolutions.

For 17 years* of my working life I was a Seaman's Union Delegate, this unpaid elected position entailed one long series of negotiations and resolutions after another. I might add that during this time I was held in high regard by both management and unionists alike for my honesty and getting to the core of the problem rather than "diplomatically" circling about it. Most of our problems were sorted with 10 minutes between the Skipper and myself without resort to time consuming "meetings" and noisy unproductive talk fests. The first lesson you need to learn is that absolute honesty without malice, will earn you more respect and bring about more lasting resolutions, than pussy footing around the issue to save face and perhaps hurting someone's feelings.

*This lasted until the last 6 years when I was asked to become the Ship owners personal representative onboard. The first such position to be created in our company, so I don't think there were any hard feelings even though we had had some very forthright discussions in the past.

So much for my alleged "lack of experience".
October 26th, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
Yes, I like the concept of that. What many do is to try to solve all problems at the same time. But there is a problem, outsiders can only push them in the right direction, not solve the problem. One approach would be to first solve urgent problems (Gaza, the humanitarian disaster, I know a guy sitting there, water is huge problem, they cannot drink the water without filters, these filters are a scarcity, electricity is another problem so I have only sporadic contacts with him) The idea which may work is to change the Israelis attitude toward Hamas, if they are removed from the terrorist list and recognized as the legitimate government/authority in Gaza. To solve the humanitarian problem in Gaza is first on the agenda, but the solution must include the Israelis.
Okay, push them in the right direction. And then using a multinational force and push the IDF out of occupied territories and recognize the Palestinian authority as the government of Palestine. The Israelis are not to be signed in an agreement, just do the solution whether they like it or not and if necessary using force. Israelis don't keep agreements anyways. They have a peace treaty with Egypt and look how many Egyptian civilians and soldiers have been killed by them. They're not to be trusted.
October 26th, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
How can it not be "one armed" there is a criminal and a victim. You can't charge the victim for attempting to defend himself against his assailant.

Please quote where i said that or even anything that could be vaguely construed as having said that.

No way, the UN should be completely ineligible, as they would have a serious conflict of interest being the organisation who were mainly responsible for the problem in the first place, but I would say that the International Courts of Justice could rule on it.

Al Quaeda is an extremist Islamic organisation who came about to try and defend Muslim interests, against a very pro Israeli Western alliance.

These groups (all of them) are extremists and only really appeal to a minority of Muslims, however the remainder find themselves with no alternative so they put up with them just to get the job done. I don't agree with their actions either, but it does not preclude me from being able to see why they do what they do. If I were in the Palestinian's position, I'd support their actions in a heartbeat.
Exactly, but also you want the ones who are not to blame to suffer just because they belonged to the criminal somehow.

You said something that was like Palestine will go bankrupt if they do all those trials.

We can agree on the International Courts of Justice.
October 27th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Exactly, but also you want the ones who are not to blame to suffer just because they belonged to the criminal somehow.
If you look about you you will see that the families of criminals suffer anywhere they happen to be, and they are certainly not allowed to benefit from the crimes of their associates, partners or parents.

Next you'll be saying that we shouldn't imprison criminals because it's not fair on their wives and children who have done nothing wrong. Don't blame justice, blame the criminals for putting them in this position.
October 27th, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
If you look about you you will see that the families of criminals suffer anywhere they happen to be, and they are certainly not allowed to benefit from the crimes of their associates, partners or parents.

Next you'll be saying that we shouldn't imprison criminals because it's not fair on their wives and children who have done nothing wrong. Don't blame justice, blame the criminals for putting them in this position.
That can be true in some cases. But, that doesn't mean that because they will suffer we should make them suffer more.

No, I wasn't going to say that neither did I.
October 27th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
That can be true in some cases. But, that doesn't mean that because they will suffer we should make them suffer more.

No, I wasn't going to say that neither did I.
As I pointed out,... We, are not making them suffer, it is the criminal elements of their families who are responsible for any suffering. Like all criminals, their family members committed their crimes willingly and knowingly, thinking that they would never be made to pay for it and therefore their families and descendants would never be made to suffer as a result. As I said in my last post, "Don't blame justice, blame the criminals for putting them in this position".

No you didn't actually say it,.. but what you have said about the suffering of criminals families means exactly the same thing.
October 27th, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
As I pointed out,... We, are not making them suffer, it is the criminal elements of their families who are responsible for any suffering. Like all criminals, their family members committed their crimes willingly and knowingly, thinking that they would never be made to pay for it and therefore their families and descendants would never be made to suffer as a result. As I said in my last post, "Don't blame justice, blame the criminals for putting them in this position".

No you didn't actually say it,.. but what you have said about the suffering of criminals families means exactly the same thing.
Well...kicking them out of where they were born isn't suffering? What did they do? As we said before, it's the Palestinian land. If the "Israelis" are willing to live according to the Palestinian law...sure. If they don't like it, they leave. At least we have to give them a choice.

I'll make it simple,

It was a rainy day and you found an old man homeless man on the street. You felt sympathy for him, you took him inside your house. And you told him, in my house this and that doesn't happen. He's in your house he has to stay by your rules. If he followed your rules as the owner, fine. If he starting ignoring what you said to him, then you kick him out. You've been a good man for providing him shelter in this troublesome period, he in return, bit the hand that fed him. So, you kick him out...but history will judge that you have been a nice man from the beginning. While, if you didn't feel like taking him inside your home from the first place, well...it's your right to leave him outside and not let him in but you know, we're all humans it would be better if you helped him. But, you're not to be blamed if you refused.

The Israelis stay in the Palestinian state by the Palestinian law. If they accept the Palestinian law since it's a Palestinian state...sure. If they don't, they have to leave. But still, if the Palestinians don't want the Israelis inside their land from the first place, well...no-one can blame the Palestinians although, it would have been better to care for the civilians. But, again...if Palestinians refused, they can't be blamed. Do you get my point now?
 


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