Originally Posted by senojekips

Obviously you have never even tried to make an honest assessment as to why the problems in the middle east have gone on for over 60 years. It's because there has been no justice for the Palestinians, and until you face that fact any attempts at peace in that area are just a complete waste of time. The Palestinians and their supporters are not fighting for religion, they are fighting to get justice.

You call me stupid. Compromise?... Do you remember the last time we tried to rein in an murderously aggressive, expansionist, regime by compromise? Do the words, "Peace in our time" ring a bell?

I never called you stupid; I called your solution stupid. If we are forcing the Israelis to leave where they are today, that's not a solution, ideas like that created the mess in the beginning. I know more about the problems and peace negotiations than you do. I can give you an example when a peace process was destroyed because of what Hague stated during the peace process in Darfur. When Hague wanted Bashir for war crimes; the Sudanese government left the negotiation and the humanitarian disaster and the armed conflict continued. The current Afghani government and the foreign forces are negotiating with the Taliban’s to end the conflict and bring the Taliban’s into the peace process, the Afghani government will never bring in atrocities into the process, the Taliban’s will leave the negotiation if they do. When the British government and IRA reached an agreement, they wanted to end the violence, if the British had added atrocities in the negotiation; it had not been an agreement. When Cambodia begin their peace process they needed to have the Khmer Rouge in the process, without them; no peace agreement, I can continue the list with countries involved in peace processes and how they reached an agreement.

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

And how shall they reach this shimmering dream scenario without solving the current situation and a peace agreement? If you add prosecution for atrocities to the table during a peace negotiation or even in the proposals to the warring parties prior a negotiation, do you think they will show up and be interested? The negotiator and the people in the area have a choice; ignore atrocities or a continuation of the armed conflict?

I said that to Seno, to force the Israelis out from Israel is a bad idea, sorry

The situation can be solved when we look at what people claim they're fighting for. Palestinians fighting for their land, they take it back. The Israelis for religion and this and that, then they get to practice their religion and live there if that's what they wanted from the beginning. If they both achieved what they wanted, at the very least, the conflict will come closer to a solution. A peace agreement, I don't really know between who and who. There will be no state of Israel, it will be just Palestine. Peace agreement, between Palestinians and Palestinians? The Israelis who were born in Palestine, if they want they live in it. They were born there. If those were the Israelis of 50 something years ago, I'd vote for sending them back to where they came from. But, this generation is born and raised there so, they live there in a Palestinian state by the Palestinian law. If they don't like it, then...they leave. If they accept it, then fine. Don't they always say "we just want peace"? Yeah, once the Palestinians get their land back, I don't see why they will still be fighting. And in the state of Palestine, they create strict laws of racism. That anybody contributing to problems between both parties gets prosecuted. And like that, hopefully, no ex-Israeli will bother Palestinians and vice versa. Peace like this came or at least is coming eventually without a peace agreement and whatsoever.

Originally Posted by senojekips

That is exactly who I am talking about. I gave the info on the formation of the state of Israel to show that as the inheritors of an unlawfully created state they have no legal rights of ownership, as their parents never lawfully owned it anyway, 94% of it was stolen and their parents or Grand parents merely occupied it,... but they are not the legal land owners and as such cannot hand it on to their descendants.

You surely have a very twisted view of justice, justice is meant to serve the victims, not the perpetrators and that is what would happen if we were to take your attitude.

The answer is to return to the Palestinian people all of that which belonged to them or was stolen from their ancestors by the Israelis.
The Israelis living there will either have to pay rent or move elsewhere. It's not the fault of the Palestinians that the Israelis killed or drove out the legitimate owners and stole their land and possessions.

If a thief stole your most expensive and favourite possession, and gave it to his children, you would allow them to keep it just because the children never committed the actual crime??... Whether you would or not, there are laws against such things and they were put in place for a very good reason, it's called "justice". Without justice there will never be a solution, so if you don't want justice you obviously don't want a solution.

So you feel that the status quo is a "good idea"? Your problem is that you want to have it both ways, you want a solution but you don't want to see that justice is done to gain that solution. That is like the child who wants to eat his cake, and have it too,... in the real world it just doesn't work.

Sure, but what do they own? If they live in the Palestinian state, the Palestinians get to decide.

"The answer is to return to the Palestinian people all of that which belonged to them or was stolen from their ancestors by the Israelis."

Agreed, I guess we're speaking about the land, right?

"The Israelis living there will either have to pay rent or move elsewhere. It's not the fault of the Palestinians that the Israelis killed or drove out the legitimate owners and stole their land and possessions."

The Palestinians who it's their state now get to decide. If they want the Israelis with them peacefully or not.

No, I don't like the status quo...I don't think I ever said that I do.

I don't really see why you say that I want no justice. I said Israelis who committed all those war crimes get trialed AND punished, that's not justice? The Palestinians get back what was stolen from them. That's also not justice? I'm returning a possession to it's owners, how is that unjust, I wonder.

Because right now, you're like putting the 4 million "Israelis" between your shoes and the ground. I'm totally with you when it comes to returning what was stolen from the Palestinians. But, just treating the Israelis like that...that's where we drift. Not because some Israelis committed some warcrimes means ALL Israelis are war criminals. That's one thing in the real world we blame on them, Hamas does something...they come up saying "LOOK, the PALESTINIANS don't want peace, they're terrorists, blah blah blah." let's say Hamas are war criminals as the Israelis claim, does that mean that ALL Palestinians are terrorists? Let's say Hamas are good guys, that means ALL Palestinians are good guys? Not because someone of a specific race did something whether good or bad means that everyone else of his race is to cursed or praised.

Originally Posted by ScarabVenom

The situation can be solved when we look at what people claim they're fighting for. Palestinians fighting for their land, they take it back. The Israelis for religion and this and that, then they get to practice their religion and live there if that's what they wanted from the beginning. If they both achieved what they wanted, at the very least, the conflict will come closer to a solution. A peace agreement, I don't really know between who and who. There will be no state of Israel, it will be just Palestine. Peace agreement, between Palestinians and Palestinians? The Israelis who were born in Palestine, if they want they live in it. They were born there. If those were the Israelis of 50 something years ago, I'd vote for sending them back to where they came from. But, this generation is born and raised there so, they live there in a Palestinian state by the Palestinian law. If they don't like it, then...they leave. If they accept it, then fine. Don't they always say "we just want peace"? Yeah, once the Palestinians get their land back, I don't see why they will still be fighting. And in the state of Palestine, they create strict laws of racism. That anybody contributing to problems between both parties gets prosecuted. And like that, hopefully, no ex-Israeli will bother Palestinians and vice versa. Peace like this came or at least is coming eventually without a peace agreement and whatsoever.

How are they supposed to reach this without solving the humanitarian disaster in Gaza, the Israeli settlements on occupied land, the access to fresh water, how are they supposed to begin to trust each other, the problem with the refugees? If the idea of one land instead of two had been implemented back in 1948 it might had worked, but it is not like that now.

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

How are they supposed to reach this without solving the humanitarian disaster in Gaza, the Israeli settlements on occupied land, the access to fresh water, how are they supposed to begin to trust each other, the problem with the refugees? If the idea of one land instead of two had been implemented back in 1948 it might had worked, but it is not like that now.

It won't work at present, and if we solidify our resolve based on that fact alone it never will.

So how long do you plan to just say "it won't work now"? In 50 years after countless more deaths and millions of refugees later will you still say that?

We cannot just freeze all ambition to solve this issue just because it is a mess now.

We need to realize that any action for a one state will be very hard fought, and very hard to achieve.

However these things are never easy and the adult and logical aspect is to admit that from the start instead of conveniently sitting back clucking our tongues and saying "it just is too difficult to give the land back".

Because if that is the case apathy and conievence are Israel's two biggest allies. All the U.S. made arms and cheaply supplied fuel in the world can't even begin to measure against that.

Originally Posted by ScarabVenom

Sure, but what do they own? If they live in the Palestinian state, the Palestinians get to decide.

Correct, and the Israelis have always known that, it's just that they chose to ignore the obvious in the hope that it would go away, and it hasn't, it's just getting worse with much of the world now held to ransom with global terror as the Palestinians only effective weapon.

Originally Posted by ScarabVenom

Agreed, I guess we're speaking about the land, right?

The land as a new Palestinian state, their homes, or sites where they were, and control of that land.

Originally Posted by ScarabVenom

The Palestinians who it's their state now get to decide. If they want the Israelis with them peacefully or not.

Of course, this is the case in all countries, they get to decide who stays. Your country does it, my country does it and the new Palestinian state should also have the right to control who lives in their country. It's not their fault that most of the Israelis have treated them like animals in their own land and soured the possibility of any smooth transition.

Originally Posted by ScarabVenom

No, I don't like the status quo...I don't think I ever said that I do.

All of your posts seem to indicate that you do, as you seem very reluctant to see justice done in an honest attempt to resolve the issues here.

Originally Posted by ScarabVenom

I don't really see why you say that I want no justice. I said Israelis who committed all those war crimes get trialed AND punished, that's not justice? The Palestinians get back what was stolen from them. That's also not justice? I'm returning a possession to it's owners, how is that unjust, I wonder.

Any new Palestinian state would go bankrupt just with the expense of running trials and building prisons to accommodate the criminals, plus many of them are now long dead and there's no hope of justice being done to them.

Originally Posted by ScarabVenom

Because right now, you're like putting the 4 million "Israelis" between your shoes and the ground. I'm totally with you when it comes to returning what was stolen from the Palestinians. But, just treating the Israelis like that...that's where we drift. Not because some Israelis committed some warcrimes means ALL Israelis are war criminals. That's one thing in the real world we blame on them, Hamas does something...they come up saying "LOOK, the PALESTINIANS don't want peace, they're terrorists, blah blah blah." let's say Hamas are war criminals as the Israelis claim, does that mean that ALL Palestinians are terrorists? Let's say Hamas are good guys, that means ALL Palestinians are good guys? Not because someone of a specific race did something whether good or bad means that everyone else of his race is to cursed or praised.

The Israelis always planned to steal the land and drive out the legitimate owners, as has been shown here many times, organisations like Hamas, Black September, and Al Quaeda only arose and were accepted by the people as a result of the fact that they were the only groups willing to fight for what the Palestinian people actually wanted.

Had the Israelis even treated the Palestinians with some degree of respect and made the slightest effort to understand their point of view, none of these organisations would have ever seen the light of day. But instead they decided upon the path of ethnic cleansing and humiliation of a proud people who had a legitimate claim,... and it not only back fired on them, but it has dragged the world into a needless on going series of wars and the constant fear of global terrorism.

It's time to face the facts,... it's not going to get any better until justice is seen to be done.

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

I never called you stupid; I called your solution stupid.

It's one and the same, as the solution is mine.

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

If we are forcing the Israelis to leave where they are today, that's not a solution, ideas like that created the mess in the beginning. I know more about the problems and peace negotiations than you do. I can give you an example when a peace process was destroyed because of what Hague stated during the peace process in Darfur. When Hague wanted Bashir for war crimes; the Sudanese government left the negotiation and the humanitarian disaster and the armed conflict continued. The current Afghani government and the foreign forces are negotiating with the Taliban’s to end the conflict and bring the Taliban’s into the peace process, the Afghani government will never bring in atrocities into the process, the Taliban’s will leave the negotiation if they do. When the British government and IRA reached an agreement, they wanted to end the violence, if the British had added atrocities in the negotiation; it had not been an agreement. When Cambodia begin their peace process they needed to have the Khmer Rouge in the process, without them; no peace agreement, I can continue the list with countries involved in peace processes and how they reached an agreement.

Thats all well and good where the countries get justice, but as I have argued all along no one wants to see that done in the case of Israel.

None of your examples hold water here in fact they are pathetic. For example you use the case of the Khmer Rouge,... They were Cambodian people, in their own country whereas in Palestine we are dealing with an invader who came from Europe and took the land instituting a policy of murder and theft of the peoples land and possessions. Also when the Khmer rouge were overthrown all the land and possessions were returned to it's previous owners. We also saw the way that no real justice was served here, with Pol Pot dying in relative comfort whilst under house arrest while people with attitudes like yours farted about for year after year, not willing to do what needed to be done.

You need to wake up to the fact that justice isn't about "all warm and fuzzy" solutions, but it is still one of the essential cornerstones of a peaceful world. No justice,... no peace.

Originally Posted by Yossarian

It won't work at present, and if we solidify our resolve based on that fact alone it never will.

So how long do you plan to just say "it won't work now"? In 50 years after countless more deaths and millions of refugees later will you still say that?

We cannot just freeze all ambition to solve this issue just because it is a mess now.

We need to realize that any action for a one state will be very hard fought, and very hard to achieve.

However these things are never easy and the adult and logical aspect is to admit that from the start instead of conveniently sitting back clucking our tongues and saying "it just is too difficult to give the land back".

Because if that is the case apathy and conievence are Israel's two biggest allies. All the U.S. made arms and cheaply supplied fuel in the world can't even begin to measure against that.

To create the incitement for negotiations which benefit both parties, to mention trials at this moment will destroy everything, they will not participate in any negotiation.
The knowledge of what happens during negotiations is very poor here. I have done this for a living and worked closed with one of the UN envoys and how create a peace agreement. Every peace agreement is going through several phases.

The first phase is to create the incitement for a peace process; this phase can take years if not decades. The team of negotiators are meeting the parties involved in the conflict and try to convince them of the benefits of participating in the process. The meetings are often behind closed doors and not open for the media, sometimes the media is not aware of what is going on. In this process the team of negotiators is dealing with people you don't want to interact with, but you must to get them on board. To even say the word "atrocities" in this phase will ruin everything. The UN envoy for Syria is in Syria right now, if he says "atrocities" he will destroy everything achieved so far.

The Second phase is when you have an agreement to participate in the negotiations, and then the real peace negotiation begins, often in a remote location without the disturbance from the media or other parties. Now the real deal begins; giving those proposals to solve the current situation, to use the word "atrocities" will destroy the whole process, which happened when Hague destroyed the peace process in Darfur. It is in process again, but a lot of people died because of what Hague did.

The third phase; the agreement is hopefully reached and the signing of the agreement. This phase also contains the implementation of the agreement and the parties are doing what they agreed to do, under surveillance from third parties.
This phase can contain the reconciliation process; when former enemies are going through different kind of programs, such as getting the military and the police to from both sides to work together, creating courts etc.

After the peace agreement is established, and then we can wait and be patient, justice will come to them hopefully, but we must wait for the participants’ retirement and/or they are replaced by a new breed of people, and then justice might be served if the new government benefits to extradite them to Hague for instance.

When Israel realizes they cannot achieve anything from using their military might will open them for negotiations. One step would also be to remove Hamas and perhaps even Hezbollah from the terrorist list. The best thing to do is to be very patient, the first phase must take time and they are in the first phase.

I think one of the lessons here is that the age of ignorance, and putting off world issue's is coming to a close.

An age of upheaval and violence threatens to appear over the horizon because many fail to get enough motivation to act to resolve these issues with much less bloodshed today.

The world is waiting, eventually either Israel (seems most likely) or one of Israel's neighbors or Iran are going to ignite a serious regional conflict over this Issue, or another issue that will be fueled by the Palestine crisis.

This will not only agitate the problem but would make any, and all peaceful assimilation impossible.


At that junction, the wiping out of one of the parties involved in this issue would become inevitable just out of pure spite brought on by any serious future conflict.


This would be in a sense a microcosm of all of humanity in the 21st century, that we now stand at a junction where there is still a possibility to come to a an agreement to prevent such violence and misery.

If we cannot , and new powerful regional countries mature into serious contenders in the region, replacing Western Ideal's, and influence, then the current Israeli position will be attacked.

Serious conflict will become more and more attractive to the parties involved here.

To put off the Israeli take over of Palestine as an issue, would guarantee this to occur, because the Palestine issue is compounded with decades of other tensions against Israel, as well as aggressive Israeli out lashes both military and economic towards it's neighbors.

The U.S. policy here already failed miserably by choosing to aid Israel in 1948, instead of following it's commonly stated goal of spreading democratic leadership, and peaceful coexistence between all people's to it's allies. Instead of building a country that idealizes this notion, they supported an evolutionary regime of the fascist governing practices from the prior decade.


To fail to prevent this would signal in a sense the total failure of the human species as a whole.

Making it somewhat difficult for some of us to wish to live on this planet anymore.

Originally Posted by senojekips

It's one and the same, as the solution is mine.

Thats all well and good where the countries get justice, but as I have argued all along no one wants to see that done in the case of Israel.

None of your examples hold water here in fact they are pathetic. For example you use the case of the Khmer Rouge,... They were Cambodian people, in their own country whereas in Palestine we are dealing with an invader who came from Europe and took the land instituting a policy of murder and theft of the peoples land and possessions. Also when the Khmer rouge were overthrown all the land and possessions were returned to it's previous owners. We also saw the way that no real justice was served here, with Pol Pot dying in relative comfort whilst under house arrest while people with attitudes like yours farted about for year after year, not willing to do what needed to be done.

You need to wake up to the fact that justice isn't about "all warm and fuzzy" solutions, but it is still one of the essential cornerstones of a peaceful world. No justice,... no peace.

Of course, you are right and every one else is wrong. You don't know what you are talking about. You have never done it so frankly, you don't know