So why do people hate Israel? - Page 100




 
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October 24th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
We can agree on that when it was back when Europeans were coming. Now, most Israelis if not all are born and raised in this spot (whether you call it Palestine or Israel). It would be unethical and inhumane to just kick them out of their homes. If we blame them for doing this to the Palestinians, we should also blame ourselves if we did this.
It is a basic premise of common law that no person can legally inherit or own anything that was stolen or has been come by without the owner's consent. This premise was upheld by the International Courts of Justice in the Mabo case and several others here in Australia. At the very best, the formation of the state of Israel is a very grey area, as the UN had (and still has) no legal right to partition a country that is not in total agreement, in fact if you care to look, the UN really don't have any legal "powers" at all. Therefore their decision to allow the formation of the state of Israel in Palestine could easily be shown to be unlawful.

Why should we worry particularly about removing the Israelis from their homes, they had absolutely no compunction whatsoever about removing the Palestinians from their homes and land. They are still doing it in east Jerusalem (and anywhere else they want) to this day. Why are you so anxious to see the criminals rewarded and the victims penalised?
October 24th, 2012  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
We can agree on that when it was back when Europeans were coming. Now, most Israelis if not all are born and raised in this spot (whether you call it Palestine or Israel). It would be unethical and inhumane to just kick them out of their homes. If we blame them for doing this to the Palestinians, we should also blame ourselves if we did this.

If we say Palestinians are the right ones, then the best solution would be like this...keep the Israelis in Palestine, start massive trials against all ex and current Israeli ministers and prime ministers and open cases for warcrimes. Because I will not calm down until I see those bastards executed or behind bars. After that, declare the state of Palestine for everyone who was born and raised or lived for a period of time in this country. And keep Palestine for everyone. Jews wanted Palestine for their religion, fine; keep them, and they practice their religion freely without any type of prosecution. Same for the Muslims and Christians since this land has holy sites for all 3 Abrahamic religions. And like this, we achieved the best we could. Palestinians got their entire land back, Jews live in the land of their ancestors and practice their religion. And of course as I said before, strict laws of racism against anyone who starts provoking others against the other race. Maybe eventually, both parties will get used to each others and then forget about the 2 parties and they recognize that they are all Palestinians.

There is a dilemma morally and practically with this, if you want a peace agreement, you must sometimes ignore atrocities committed in the past to achieve a peace. That is the price to pay for peace, if one or all of the warring parties know they will be put on trials, they will not participate in a peace process. The choice between continue the armed conflict or reach an agreement. This dilemma was a huge problem in the majority of the South American countries when they left the military juntas, even so in Cambodia, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Rwanda, and even so in Bosnia

To force Israelis to leave what we call Israel will not solve anything; only create a new problem, that's not how to solve a problem
October 24th, 2012  
Yossarian
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
It is a basic premise of common law that no person can legally inherit or own anything that was stolen or has been come by without the owner's consent. This premise was upheld by the International Courts of Justice in the Mabo case and several others here in Australia. At the very best, the formation of the state of Israel is a very grey area, as the UN had (and still has) no legal right to partition a country that is not in total agreement, in fact if you care to look, the UN really don't have any legal "powers" at all. Therefore their decision to allow the formation of the state of Israel in Palestine could easily be shown to be unlawful.

Why should we worry particularly about removing the Israelis from their homes, they had absolutely no compunction whatsoever about removing the Palestinians from their homes and land. They are still doing it in east Jerusalem (and anywhere else they want) to this day. Why are you so anxious to see the criminals rewarded and the victims penalised?

You are right on that premise, what many who say * As I once was misled to think this as well *

is unethical to do the Israelis is not only what they have done to the Palestinians, but are currently, as in right now, actively doing to them still.

It would be somewhat debatable, not logical but debatable if this was a one time occurrence by Israel, however it's not, it is a compounding theft joined with compounding ethical cleansing of the region.

You give a pardon to a criminal for a past singular crime, not to a criminal who is stealing ink pens from the Judge's stand.

What many don't understand is you do not always need death camps and gas chambers for ethic cleansing, forced exodus, lack of rights and social upheaval coupled with time, can do the job just as well.

That's another aspect people neglect to admit about this situation.
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October 25th, 2012  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian
You are right on that premise, what many who say * As I once was misled to think this as well *

is unethical to do the Israelis is not only what they have done to the Palestinians, but are currently, as in right now, actively doing to them still.

It would be somewhat debatable, not logical but debatable if this was a one time occurrence by Israel, however it's not, it is a compounding theft joined with compounding ethical cleansing of the region.

You give a pardon to a criminal for a past singular crime, not to a criminal who is stealing ink pens from the Judge's stand.

What many don't understand is you do not always need death camps and gas chambers for ethic cleansing, forced exodus, lack of rights and social upheaval coupled with time, can do the job just as well.

That's another aspect people neglect to admit about this situation.
I must ask; is this your perception of what other people understand or do you really know what people don't understand?
October 25th, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
It is a basic premise of common law that no person can legally inherit or own anything that was stolen or has been come by without the owner's consent. This premise was upheld by the International Courts of Justice in the Mabo case and several others here in Australia. At the very best, the formation of the state of Israel is a very grey area, as the UN had (and still has) no legal right to partition a country that is not in total agreement, in fact if you care to look, the UN really don't have any legal "powers" at all. Therefore their decision to allow the formation of the state of Israel in Palestine could easily be shown to be unlawful.

Why should we worry particularly about removing the Israelis from their homes, they had absolutely no compunction whatsoever about removing the Palestinians from their homes and land. They are still doing it in east Jerusalem (and anywhere else they want) to this day. Why are you so anxious to see the criminals rewarded and the victims penalised?
I'm not talking about the formation of Israel. I'm talking about the citizens of it, the Israelis. Human beings like you and I who were born and raised there. What should we do? Put them in boats and throw them in international waters? What's their fault for what their ancestors and governments did? I really find no reason for them to suffer. I also didn't say they own a land or whatever.

Well..we have to worry. Why would we blame the citizens though? There's a difference between the Israeli state and Israelis. The Israeli state, I oppose it to death for everything they have done to us. But, Israelis...I really got nothing against them. I also didn't say that the criminals should be rewarded and the victims penalized.

The victims as I suppose are the Palestinians, should get their land back. In full, if we say so. That's a reward not a penalty I assume. The Israeli government and ex-governments or ministers WHO committed or have been responsible for kicking out the Palestinians from their homes, conquering other countries and committing war crimes should be trialed and represented to Justice and severely punished for what they have done.

The Israeli citizens, why should we blame them? Why should we kick them out of their homes and send them to Europe or something? If they want to go to Europe, fine. If they don't, they have to be Palestinians and recognize the Palestinian law as their way of life. If they can't accept that, back to Europe. As far as I know, they like Palestine for religion. Okay, they stay in Palestine and live as Palestinians and do their religious stuff and live normally.

That's what I said or at least tried to say. In here, I see the criminals prosecuted, the victims rewarded and the ones who didn't really commit any crimes or bothered anyone get no reward and no penalty. At the very least, I believe that's the best we can achieve.
October 25th, 2012  
ScarabVenom
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
There is a dilemma morally and practically with this, if you want a peace agreement, you must sometimes ignore atrocities committed in the past to achieve a peace. That is the price to pay for peace, if one or all of the warring parties know they will be put on trials, they will not participate in a peace process. The choice between continue the armed conflict or reach an agreement. This dilemma was a huge problem in the majority of the South American countries when they left the military juntas, even so in Cambodia, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Rwanda, and even so in Bosnia

To force Israelis to leave what we call Israel will not solve anything; only create a new problem, that's not how to solve a problem
Why would there be a peace agreement? Between who and who? Palestinians and Israelis? Israelis were be Palestinians living in the state of Palestine. Israelis might not accept that, I know. But, we got an issue to fix here. Palestinians get their land back, issue solved. Israelis as far as I know, are in this land because their ancestors were there and for some religious stuff. Okay, they can stay in this land and practice their religion but, they know that they will become Palestinians and living by the Palestinian law. If they don't accept that and just want to keep the land for themselves, it can't happen, sorry. If they accept, fine. And no, crimes don't get forgotten. Whoever committed the crime or is responsible for it, gets trialed and punished with no exception. For unusual cases, the law does his way.

"To force Israelis to leave what we call Israel will not solve anything; only create a new problem, that's not how to solve a problem"

I don't think I really said that, did I?
October 25th, 2012  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Why would there be a peace agreement? Between who and who? Palestinians and Israelis? Israelis were be Palestinians living in the state of Palestine. Israelis might not accept that, I know. But, we got an issue to fix here. Palestinians get their land back, issue solved. Israelis as far as I know, are in this land because their ancestors were there and for some religious stuff. Okay, they can stay in this land and practice their religion but, they know that they will become Palestinians and living by the Palestinian law. If they don't accept that and just want to keep the land for themselves, it can't happen, sorry. If they accept, fine. And no, crimes don't get forgotten. Whoever committed the crime or is responsible for it, gets trialed and punished with no exception. For unusual cases, the law does his way.

"To force Israelis to leave what we call Israel will not solve anything; only create a new problem, that's not how to solve a problem"

I don't think I really said that, did I?
And how shall they reach this shimmering dream scenario without solving the current situation and a peace agreement? If you add prosecution for atrocities to the table during a peace negotiation or even in the proposals to the warring parties prior a negotiation, do you think they will show up and be interested? The negotiator and the people in the area have a choice; ignore atrocities or a continuation of the armed conflict?

I said that to Seno, to force the Israelis out from Israel is a bad idea, sorry
October 25th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
I'm not talking about the formation of Israel. I'm talking about the citizens of it, the Israelis. Human beings like you and I who were born and raised there. What should we do?
That is exactly who I am talking about. I gave the info on the formation of the state of Israel to show that as the inheritors of an unlawfully created state they have no legal rights of ownership, as their parents never lawfully owned it anyway, 94% of it was stolen and their parents or Grand parents merely occupied it,... but they are not the legal land owners and as such cannot hand it on to their descendants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarabVenom
Put them in boats and throw them in international waters? What's their fault for what their ancestors and governments did? I really find no reason for them to suffer. I also didn't say they own a land or whatever.
You surely have a very twisted view of justice, justice is meant to serve the victims, not the perpetrators and that is what would happen if we were to take your attitude.

The answer is to return to the Palestinian people all of that which belonged to them or was stolen from their ancestors by the Israelis.
The Israelis living there will either have to pay rent or move elsewhere. It's not the fault of the Palestinians that the Israelis killed or drove out the legitimate owners and stole their land and possessions.

If a thief stole your most expensive and favourite possession, and gave it to his children, you would allow them to keep it just because the children never committed the actual crime??... Whether you would or not, there are laws against such things and they were put in place for a very good reason, it's called "justice". Without justice there will never be a solution, so if you don't want justice you obviously don't want a solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
I said that to Seno, to force the Israelis out from Israel is a bad idea, sorry
So you feel that the status quo is a "good idea"? Your problem is that you want to have it both ways, you want a solution but you don't want to see that justice is done to gain that solution. That is like the child who wants to eat his cake, and have it too,... in the real world it just doesn't work.
October 25th, 2012  
I3BrigPvSk
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by senojekips
That is exactly who I am talking about. I gave the info on the formation of the state of Israel to show that as the inheritors of an unlawfully created state they have no legal rights of ownership, as their parents never owned legally anyway, 94% of it was stolen and their parents they occupied it, but they are not the legal land owners.

You surely have a very twisted view of justice, justice is meant to serve the victims, not the perpetrators and that is what would happen if we were to take your attitude.

The answer is to return to the Palestinian people all of that which belonged to them or was stolen from their ancestors by the Israelis.
The Israelis living there will either have to pay rent or move elsewhere. It's not the fault of the Palestinians that the Israelis killed or drove out the legitimate owners and stole their land and possessions.

If a thief stole your most expensive and favourite possession, and gave it to his children, you would allow them to keep it just because the children never committed the actual crime??... Whether you would or not, there are laws against such things and they were put in place for a very good reason, it's called "justice". Without justice there will never be a solution, so if you don't want justice you obviously don't want a solution.

So you feel that the status quo is a "good idea"? Your problem is that you want to have it both ways, you want a solution but you don't want to see that justice is done to gain that solution. That is like the child who wants to eat his cake, and have it too,... in the real world it just doesn't work.
You have no experience in negotiations what so ever, your solution is...beyond stupid....In your dream scenario you are creating a problem not solving it. To reach an agreement, the people need to reach a COMPROMICE with an acceptance from both sides. You didn't know that, did you?
October 25th, 2012  
senojekips
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk
You have no experience in negotiations what so ever, your solution is...beyond stupid....In your dream scenario you are creating a problem not solving it. To reach an agreement, the people need to reach a COMPROMICE with an acceptance from both sides. You didn't know that, did you?
Obviously you have never even tried to make an honest assessment as to why the problems in the middle east have gone on for over 60 years. It's because there has been no justice for the Palestinians, and until you face that fact any attempts at peace in that area are just a complete waste of time. The Palestinians and their supporters are not fighting for religion, they are fighting to get justice.

You call me stupid. Compromise?... Do you remember the last time we tried to rein in an murderously aggressive, expansionist, regime by compromise? Do the words, "Peace in our time" ring a bell?
 


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