A landing immediately after Dynamo was out of the questing, as the harbors were destroyed and there were no transport ships .
Besides, the war against France was not over .

Originally Posted by lljadw

A landing immediately after Dynamo was out of the questing, as the harbors were destroyed and there were no transport ships .
Besides, the war against France was not over .

No argument from me but the reality is that it was the only window for success that the Germans had with a cobbled together invasion fleet.

Even for this to work it means they would have had to have planned it as part of the invasion of France and the low countries and I am not convinced they were all that confident that would work.

Originally Posted by MontyB

No argument from me but the reality is that it was the only window for success that the Germans had with a cobbled together invasion fleet.

Even for this to work it means they would have had to have planned it as part of the invasion of France and the low countries and I am not convinced they were all that confident that would work.

Even if 11 Group had been destroyed (by all accounts it was quite close) as was mentioned on here previously, survivors of 11 group would have either joined 10 or 12 group maybe both. However, bomber command and costal command would have joined in the fight, probably escorted by fighters from 10 and or 12 Groups and no doubt with help from the fleet air arm.

Originally Posted by BritinBritain

Even if 11 Group had been destroyed (by all accounts it was quite close) as was mentioned on here previously, survivors of 11 group would have either joined 10 or 12 group maybe both. However, bomber command and costal command would have joined in the fight, probably escorted by fighters from 10 and or 12 Groups and no doubt with help from the fleet air arm.

All true, it was the reason I was rather cautious about that youtube link I posted earlier, it essentially assumed that there would be one battle with the Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine and then the RAF/RN would almost cease to exist for the rest of the battle.

I also probably should have pointed out from the start that this is a purely hypothetical discussion as we know how history panned out all we are looking for is the conditions that may have contributed to an alternative outcome.

It is a lot like the Lotzen decision arguments, while there may be unrealistic scenarios there really aren't any wrong ones, for example had the West gone to war with Russia in June or July 1945 and followed through on Japanese feelers for peace in early May (Both the US State Dept and the Japanese govt encouraged peace initiative's via Sweden at this point) then not only would the West have the resources for war but also a couple of spare atomic bombs to even up the numbers a bit.

**According to The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire by John Toland there were two May peace feelers both involving Allen Dulles, both almost succeeded but but got fouled in translation.

Originally Posted by MontyB

All true, it was the reason I was rather cautious about that youtube link I posted earlier, it essentially assumed that there would be one battle with the Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine and then the RAF/RN would almost cease to exist for the rest of the battle.

I also probably should have pointed out from the start that this is a purely hypothetical discussion as we know how history panned out all we are looking for is the conditions that may have contributed to an alternative outcome.

It is a lot like the Lotzen decision arguments, while there may be unrealistic scenarios there really aren't any wrong ones, for example had the West gone to war with Russia in June or July 1945 and followed through on Japanese feelers for peace in early May (Both the US State Dept and the Japanese govt encouraged peace initiative's via Sweden at this point) then not only would the West have the resources for war but also a couple of spare atomic bombs to even up the numbers a bit.

**According to The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire by John Toland there were two May peace feelers both involving Allen Dulles, both almost succeeded but but got fouled in translation.

To be honest, I'd rather the Japanese were on the receiving end of the two atom bombs, I wished Japan had been bombed until the country sank from sight below the sea

Originally Posted by BritinBritain

To be honest, I'd rather the Japanese were on the receiving end of the two atom bombs, I wished Japan had been bombed until the country sank from sight below the sea

I understand why but I imagine there are just as many who wished the same for Germany and Russia for exactly the same reason.

Originally Posted by MontyB

I understand why but I imagine there are just as many who wished the same for Germany and Russia for exactly the same reason.

The difference is, Germans and Russians were glad to get rid of their dictators, the Japanese still thought their emperor was a god even after the surrender. In my opinion the Japanese regime were the most evil during WW2

These "What If" discussions can be fun. I have occasionally been thinking what would Britain and France do if the Soviet Union had attacked Poland first.

Originally Posted by BritinBritain

The difference is, Germans and Russians were glad to get rid of their dictators, the Japanese still thought their emperor was a god even after the surrender. In my opinion the Japanese regime were the most evil during WW2

The Russians still have theirs and the Germans pretty much followed theirs until destruction, had the wehrmacht still been winning battles Hitler would have had a long career with very little resistance from the German people, I am not for an instant mitigating Japanese atrocities but Germany and Russia were no better.

Originally Posted by I3BrigPvSk

These "What If" discussions can be fun. I have occasionally been thinking what would Britain and France do if the Soviet Union had attacked Poland first.

I once posed a similar question and it is a hard one to answer, most people point out Churchill's dislike of Hitler without realizing that Chamberlain was the guy in charge and he had very different views.
My guess is that it wouldn't have changed things greatly as the Germans would have stopped the British/French from delivering aid to Poland and then pulled a Russia and invaded under the pretext of supporting ethnic Germans in western Poland.
It may have provided a pretext for a German, Britain/France non-aggression pact and allowed the Germans to go east sooner without the need to invade France, Greece etc but it is had to say where Chamberlain's limits were.

Originally Posted by MontyB

I once posed a similar question and it is a hard one to answer, most people point out Churchill's dislike of Hitler without realizing that Chamberlain was the guy in charge and he had very different views.
My guess is that it wouldn't have changed things greatly as the Germans would have stopped the British/French from delivering aid to Poland and then pulled a Russia and invaded under the pretext of supporting ethnic Germans in western Poland.
It may have provided a pretext for a German, Britain/France non-aggression pact and allowed the Germans to go east sooner without the need to invade France, Greece etc but it is had to say where Chamberlain's limits were.

Soviet invasion of Poland: Probably pretty much the same as when they invaded Finland to start the Winter War.