Originally Posted by MontyB

Again hard to say as I doubt Poland or the Baltic states had much love for the Russians but as Lljadw pointed out German attrocities didnt win a hell of a lot of friends with the locals either.


There were however a number of pro-German states occupied by the Russians that German troops could have been used.


The other thing is that I doubt the German divisions would have in German uniform as evidenced by their use of US uniforms while working for the allies immediately after the war.

The pro-German states were German allies ( Hungary, Romania ) and the opinion in the West was that they deserved what they got =that they deserved a Russian occupation .
In the Percentages Agreement of October 1944, Churchill proposed the following to Stalin : the USSR would have the following
Romania : 90/100% influence
Bulgaria : 75/80 %
Hungary : 50/80 %
Yugoslavia : 50 %
Greece : 10 %
Thus : why would Churchill fight to conquer what he gave away to Stalin ?
Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary were responsible for countless allied deaths,thus there was no reason to fight to liberate them from the Soviets .
And, 25 years later, Ceaucescu was received in Washington as an ally .

Originally Posted by BritinBritain

Its a pity that the whole of the German Army is tarred with the same brush as the SS and police units.

I sort of agree but the problem is that the regular German troops if nothing else tacitly supported the Nazi regime, they fought to the bitter end to defend a government that should have been removed in 1935.

Originally Posted by lljadw

The pro-German states were German allies ( Hungary, Romania ) and the opinion in the West was that they deserved what they got =that they deserved a Russian occupation .
In the Percentages Agreement of October 1944, Churchill proposed the following to Stalin : the USSR would have the following
Romania : 90/100% influence
Bulgaria : 75/80 %
Hungary : 50/80 %
Yugoslavia : 50 %
Greece : 10 %
Thus : why would Churchill fight to conquer what he gave away to Stalin ?
Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary were responsible for countless allied deaths,thus there was no reason to fight to liberate them from the Soviets .
And, 25 years later, Ceaucescu was received in Washington as an ally .

Because the minute an easy v west war broke out the only option was Allies in Moscow or Russians in London.

The risk of a Soviet attack was til 1957 almost nonexistent,as the Allies would nuke Moscow if the USSR would attack .
And, when,after 1957 the US nuclear umbrella did no longer exist, the Soviets still did not attack,as they had no reason to attack .
When in 1946 Churchill was talking in Fulton (Missouri ) about the Iron Curtain (phrase he borrowed from Goebbels ),this disproved the fear of a possible Soviet attack : if Stalin wanted to attack, he would not build a Curtain to separate Eastern Europe from the West .

Originally Posted by MontyB

I sort of agree but the problem is that the regular German troops if nothing else tacitly supported the Nazi regime, they fought to the bitter end to defend a government that should have been removed in 1935.

Because the minute an easy v west war broke out the only option was Allies in Moscow or Russians in London.

Its must be remembered that although the German Army as a whole was all but decimated, there were Gestapo and Police units still on the lookout for defeatist utterances where not only the the soldier was shot, so was his entire family.

Remember Operation Valkyrie the 20th July 1944 plot to kill Hitler, More than 7,000 people were arrested and 4,980 were executed. Not all of them were connected with the plot, since the Gestapo used the occasion to settle scores with many other people suspected of opposition sympathies. Would you mess with such a regime? I know i wouldn't. I'm deaf not daft.

I am convinced local people knew about what was going on in concentration camps, but if they spoke out against the camps in the NAZI regime, they and their entire family would end up in one. So sensibly they kept their mouths shut.

My uncle Charlie who fought in North Africa often stated he came across German POW's who were thoroughly decent chaps. While I was in Germany I came across a number of ex WW2 soldiers as well as an ex Luftwaffe bomber pilot who were very nice people to talk to.

Originally Posted by BritinBritain

Its must be remembered that although the German Army as a whole was all but decimated, there were Gestapo and Police units still on the lookout for defeatist utterances where not only the the soldier was shot, so was his entire family.

Remember Operation Valkyrie the 20th July 1944 plot to kill Hitler, More than 7,000 people were arrested and 4,980 were executed. Not all of them were connected with the plot, since the Gestapo used the occasion to settle scores with many other people suspected of opposition sympathies. Would you mess with such a regime? I know i wouldn't. I'm deaf not daft.

I am convinced local people knew about what was going on in concentration camps, but if they spoke out against the camps in the NAZI regime, they and their entire family would end up in one. So sensibly they kept their mouths shut.

My uncle Charlie who fought in North Africa often stated he came across German POW's who were thoroughly decent chaps. While I was in Germany I came across a number of ex WW2 soldiers as well as an ex Luftwaffe bomber pilot who were very nice people to talk to.

Yet in every country occupied by the Germans resistance movements flourished even knowing outcome of being caught, now I don't doubt there was resistance in Germany but at best you would have to consider it fairly muted.

It seems to me that while Germany was winning the war the military and public were happy to go along with Nazi doctrine but when things turned sour some grew a conscious more from self-preservation than a sense of right and wrong but rest fought to the end for that doctrine.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Because the minute an easy v west war broke out the only option was Allies in Moscow or Russians in London.

I probably should clarify this a bit better as like the Germans l do not think the Russians could have ever landed in Britain, the Royal Navy was simply too powerful for any of the continental nations to consider an amphibious assault.

Originally Posted by MontyB

I probably should clarify this a bit better as like the Germans l do not think the Russians could have ever landed in Britain, the Royal Navy was simply too powerful for any of the continental nations to consider an amphibious assault.

Correct, neither were naval powers.

Originally Posted by George

Correct, neither were naval powers.

Which is why the Battle of Britain was never really fought, even had the Luftwaffe gained air superiority over southern Britain a successful German invasion was still impossible while the Royal Navy remained intact.

So I guess the question with regard to this thread is could the Russians have made it to the channel had war have broken out with the west.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Which is why the Battle of Britain was never really fought, even had the Luftwaffe gained air superiority over southern Britain a successful German invasion was still impossible while the Royal Navy remained intact.

I don't agree with this at all, yes the Royal Navy was intact, the Luftwaffe was intent in causing as much damage as possible during the blitz as well as undermining British morale.

Up to the Battle of Britain, Germany and the Luftwaffe had it all their own way, the Battle of Britain was their first defeat, thanks to Hugh Dowding AOC Fighter Command and Keith Parks AOC 11 Group who both fought the Battle brilliantly.

So yes, in my opinion the Battle of Britain was really fought.

Later on Keith Parks successfully organised the air defense of Malta in June 1943, thanks to I assume to his experience gained during the Battle of Britain.

Originally Posted by BritinBritain

I don't agree with this at all, yes the Royal Navy was intact, the Luftwaffe was intent in causing as much damage as possible during the blitz as well as undermining British morale.

Up to the Battle of Britain, Germany and the Luftwaffe had it all their own way, the Battle of Britain was their first defeat, thanks to Hugh Dowding AOC Fighter Command and Keith Parks AOC 11 Group who both fought the Battle brilliantly.

So yes, in my opinion the Battle of Britain was really fought.

Later on Keith Parks successfully organised the air defense of Malta in June 1943, thanks to I assume to his experience gained during the Battle of Britain.

I don't have any argument with your points but the reality remains that while the Royal Navy remained intact Operation Sealion had no chance of succeeding, now given that the bulk of the German destroyer fleet was at the bottom of Norwegian fjords there was no chance the Kriegsmarine could conceivably gain parity long enough to get sufficient material ashore.

Also the Luftwaffe had no chance of defeating the RAF without a landing as even had they gained air superiority over southern England the RAF would simply have withdrawn to the North of London and continued the fight over friendly territory, the Luftwaffe was a short range support force that followed the army it lacked the long range fighter and heavy bomber force required.