Should military spending be reduced?

[ASTRALdragon]

Actually you are very wrong. The vast majority of the people in Aceh refused the aid that came from non-islamic countries. They were asking the source of the aid and refused it when told it was from the US. Not all but more than half. In fact most of them are still homeless because they would rather suffer than accept aid from the US. Such is the effect of the fatalistic aspects of Islam for the santri. Aceh is very different from the rest of Indonesia.

I am also very cognisant of the fact you have chosen the softball question over addressing my points.
:read:

Heheh I remember seeing a report on this on CNN and BBC. Reminds me of when the US offered to send food and grain (genetically engineered... you know, the ones we all buy at Albertsons, Costco, and just about every freakin grocery store in America!) to Zimbabwe but Greenpeace told the Zimbabwen (sp?) that the food was tainted and meant to poison its citizens. So of course the Zimbabwen government believed them and denied the food offerrings at the cost of millions of starving Africans... Yea poinsoned wheat and grain.... that's why the US is one of the fattest countries in the world and Africa has most of the skinniest....

 

[WarMachine]

You can change public opinion in the muslim world, not like people there are gluttons for punishment. It's their conservative societies that cause problems, if the people can get aid i don't think it's a huge issue of where that aid comes from. If you were in a disaster relief zone would you care if the supplies were coming from cuba or china, aid is aid.

It's because we keep squandering international good will that America has a more negative image in the world. No level of military readiness is going to change that, addressing the issues of world poverty and hunger will. First the States has to get its act together and take care of its problems at home then go out and help the rest of the world.

It's naive to think that our country is so spectacular that we can have the moral high ground against other nations. I like America, but like a lot of people i don't like the policies being created that are turning world opinion against us. Muslim people don't hate us, their governments hate us.

 

[jequirity]

Gotta agree there, america although it donates more aid than any other country :bravo: , will never really claim successfully the moral highground on a lot of issues because it essentially pisses of the world a fair bit with its foreign policies.:shoothea:

On the issue of military spending though, major powers who reduce their military spending also reduce their military power and things inevitably start going awry a tad.

Its true that security can't be secured through military power, there are other factors that come into play. The war on terror should also focus on improving ailing relations with other countries to discourage support for terrorists. Sometimes you gotta give a little to get a little.

 

[PJ24]

Muslim people don't hate us, their governments hate us.

All fanatical Muslims (and there are millions and millions of them) hate YOU specifically.

They don't hate you because of your government, they hate you because you're an infidel.

You better learn that.

 

[gladius]

As someone who has been studying Muslim beliefs and doctrine for some time now, I'd have to say PJ24 is correct.

Most of he governments in Muslim actually don't hate the USA, they get money from us. But outwardly they have to have the appearance that they do not like the US. Firstly to gain favor with the fundamentalist which influences the majority. And secondly to give the people an enemy to think about, in order to distract attention away from themsleves.

If you ask the average Muslim in the those countries if they hate the USA they will say yes, but if you ask them would they like to come to the USA they will say yes, contradictory but true.

My own personal experience regarding any devout Muslims I know here in the US is that they do not like the USA even though they live here. They complain how bad it is for boy and girls to mix in shcool for example, and how our infidel lifestyle is wrong, nevermind the fact that they live comfortably over here.

Most Muslims are probably normal folks, but the problem is almost all their doctrines are fed to them by fundamentalist Imams, and that is bnasicly where they get their beliefs from. So do they hate us? For the part, yes. Because from childhood they are told we are infidels and influenced by evil.

 

[Senior Chief]

Cutting spending on defense does nothing more than weaken the war fighter.

If you follow the current esclation of costs for everything, military or non military, you see that prices are going up on everything.

I've bought gas for $0.25.9 a gallon, last time I checked it is somewhat higher these days. If you look at the cola and the percentages of other things that could be bought for nickles and dimes in the past you are now paying dollars plus for. Check out simple items such as bread and milk in 1960 or 1970.

The figures per item might vary but the bottom line is that prices are going up and you do not want the military to fall behind in the ability to wage smart war. (technically sound war to be PC).

Even someof the mainstream Muslims support what the radicals are doing. I worked with a couple of guys that were good co-workers. They were decidedly for the 9/11 attacks and were not ashamed to hide their approval of that attack.

I cannot be sold down the river by anyone that claims that they are a peaceful religion.

 

[WarMachine]

Funny, all the muslims i've known at school have none of those beliefs. One of them is from Algeria and the other is from Pakistan, they're both pretty smart and i've never known them to be fanatical to any extent. Unless you count going to friday prayer and respecting the traditions of ramadan as fanatical.

I suppose they listen to what their imams have to say out of respect, i've heard of some conservative christian preachers that aren't very nice either. What both those groups need is to think for themselves rather than have someone else tell them what to do and what to think. That was our opinion of the communists in the cold war and for some reason you can't apply that to religion? You give people education and a chance to live better lives than i think those imam's influence will die down. Of course they'll always be around telling people to hate america, that's just the way society is sometimes.

I'm sorry that there are those who hate america but then there are those kinds in every continent, from catholics to hindus they have America haters. Islam historically has been much more peaceful than christianity, if you go by body count then the muslims have a tremendous way to go in order to match the death toll that europeans and other christians have accumulated over the centuries. However, you give them a peaceful alternative then they'll calm down.

 

[Missileer]

It's because we keep squandering international good will that America has a more negative image in the world. No level of military readiness is going to change that, addressing the issues of world poverty and hunger will. First the States has to get its act together and take care of its problems at home then go out and help the rest of the world.

First, we don't help other Nations enough. When that is proven false, then you say we don't spend enough on our own people. As many years as I have flown over the Coasts and from border to border, I haven't seen one small town or large City where there weren't more backyard swimming pools than could be counted. America is not only rich but unselfish.

It's naive to think that our country is so spectacular that we can have the moral high ground against other nations.

Well, we aren't squatting beside a mudhole in Africa watching our children starve to death, so I guess we are a little more moral than a warlord that guns down or starves entire civilizations in their own country because they aren't from their tribe.

I like America, but like a lot of people i don't like the policies being created that are turning world opinion against us. Muslim people don't hate us, their governments hate us.

I don't just like America, I LOVE Her and served proudly when my turn came. I stand on arthritic knees and ankles in my American Legion uniform when Old Glory passes in a parade and if someone doesn't want to see an old man tear up, they better avert their eyes because I can't help it.

Soldiers don't fight wars for policy, they fight to protect their country and those too weak to fight for themselves. Muslims or any other culture have the freedom to hate us and express disgust for America, it's attacking our people that is the line they cannot cross.

You have a right to speak your mind about America but just never forget how you got and held that right.

GOD BLESS THE USA.
:salute2: :salute2:

 

[PJ24]

Funny, all the muslims i've known at school have none of those beliefs. One of them is from Algeria and the other is from Pakistan, they're both pretty smart and i've never known them to be fanatical to any extent. Unless you count going to friday prayer and respecting the traditions of ramadan as fanatical.

I suppose they listen to what their imams have to say out of respect, i've heard of some conservative christian preachers that aren't very nice either. What both those groups need is to think for themselves rather than have someone else tell them what to do and what to think. That was our opinion of the communists in the cold war and for some reason you can't apply that to religion? You give people education and a chance to live better lives than i think those imam's influence will die down. Of course they'll always be around telling people to hate america, that's just the way society is sometimes.

I'm sorry that there are those who hate america but then there are those kinds in every continent, from catholics to hindus they have America haters. Islam historically has been much more peaceful than christianity, if you go by body count then the muslims have a tremendous way to go in order to match the death toll that europeans and other christians have accumulated over the centuries. However, you give them a peaceful alternative then they'll calm down.

I've spent a lot of time in the middle east and around fanatical Muslims. You're still wrong.

 

[WarMachine]

You must have some sort of magnetism for fanatics then because in the civilian world here in California, i have yet to see or hear of any such things. If you're in the mid east then guess what? You're bound to run into fanatics, we are occupying two muslim nations right now, so of course they'll be fanatical. Only now they have more support in the governments which isn't a positive thing unless you're Osama.

And missiler, i wasn't bashing on the Americans and their values, i'm criticizing the current administration's policies, two different things.

 

[theannoyingnoob]

You're from California? That explains a couple things.

 

[PJ24]

You must have some sort of magnetism for fanatics then because in the civilian world here in California, i have yet to see or hear of any such things. If you're in the mid east then guess what? You're bound to run into fanatics, we are occupying two muslim nations right now, so of course they'll be fanatical. Only now they have more support in the governments which isn't a positive thing unless you're Osama.

Did I say I was in California? No, I didn't. I said the Middle East, didn't I? (Nod your head yes, good boy!)

Now, are you really so naive as to compare an American-Muslim to oh, I dunno, let's say an Afghani-Muslim? (Shake your head no) I didn't think you were.

You have a very small understanding of just about everything you talk about. Muslim fundamentalism is just something else to add to the list.

:mrgreen:

 

[Missileer]

You must have some sort of magnetism for fanatics then because in the civilian world here in California, i have yet to see or hear of any such things.

How about New York? Ever been to ground zero? I'd have to call that one fanatic, and guess what, they were all Arabs and all Muslims.

 

[bulldogg]

This thread is somewhat reminding me of the Wizard of Oz...

WarMachine, you've been all over the map trying to justify your agenda. How about simplifying things for yourself and answering LeEnfield's question to you back on page one... what SPECIFICLY would you cut and why?

 

[gladius]

You must have some sort of magnetism for fanatics then because in the civilian world here in California, i have yet to see or hear of any such things.

California you said? You may need pay attention a bit more.



FBI: Al Qaeda plot possibly uncovered

'Trained on how to kill Americans'

Thursday, June 9, 2005 Posted: 5:21 AM EDT (0921 GMT)

LODI, California (CNN) -- Authorities said Wednesday they believe a father and son arrested in this quaint northern California community were involved in a larger al Qaeda plan to carry out jihad, or holy war, against the United States...

"We believe through our investigation that various individuals connected to al Qaeda have been operating in the Lodi area in various capacities," FBI special agent in charge Keith Slotter told reporters.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/08/terror.probe/

 

[WarMachine]

It's not my fault the only ones responding to my posts are conservatives who who keep badgering me about agendas and think i'm anti american or something. I was talking about a simple plan to reduce spending but you guys love taking these things out of porportion. What do i want to cut spending on? Let's see, B2s that arecompletely useless. F 22s that were meant to fight migs that never came to be. Missle defense systems that don't work. Nuclear submarines that have no mission except partol the deep oceans for sings of captain nemo or something. These are the sort of things i was talking about, not your beloved hand grenades and rations.

This country will save a lot of money if we cut funding for a lot of these programs since we don't need them, i'm sorry but there's nothing you can justify using them for. Theres is no more cold war for these cold war weapons to be a part of. They were built and now we have to pay for them with a budget that is now constantly in a deficit because we need to keep borrowing in order to pay these extravagent costs. 500 billion is the new defense budget passed for next year with no votes by democrats, that means congress can only pass creates these budgets if there's still a republican majority where as before there was bipartisnship. I don't know about you but i'm not looking forward to the day when we have to pay 500 billion a year from our tax revenues in order to pay the interest to the national debt.

As for the war right now, what can i say it's there and the sooner things get safer the better. Then troops can be withdrawn and costs will go down and people won't be killed on a daily basis. I don't want to reduce spending on troops anymore then the next guy, i do want this to end so we can go back to a more normal planet and a less chaotic political situation.

Well that's what i got to say, if you want you can quote what i've just written and tell me what's wrong with it like you've done so far, or you can actually tell me your opinion of the issue of defense spending and how it affects our government. I'm not trying to make foes here, i just want a civil discussion is all.

 

[ASTRALdragon]

If it's anything the government has to crack down on are those latched-on bills that senators latch onto bill thats are going to be passed for the most retarded things. For example, let's say the Senate passes a bill to ban assault weapons, then we get some crack Senators who will latch onto that same bill since it's going to be passed anyway some otehr lesser bill like, let's build a rainforest in Iowa at a cost to us taxpayers for $2.5 million. These sorts of things usually go unnoticed by the common public because it is overshadowed by the main bill/law, but if you read the fineprint carefully, it's there. Why do they do this? Re-election points... Senators get paid a lot to argue all day and preach about their self-righteouness.

 

[C/2nd Lt Robot]

I don't know about you but i'm not looking forward to the day when we have to pay 500 billion a year from our tax revenues in order to pay the interest to the national debt.

Well, seeing that you're worried about the national debt, I understand that each American will have to pay about $32,000 or so to clear it. Have you sent in your check? I also understand that our congressmen and women don't get too much mail from citizens about suggestions on how to help America/ they're little corner of America. Chop chop, they're not getting any younger, tell them your plan and see how they react. They make the laws and such, tell them. We'll argue with you, they'll argue with each other and with a little luck actually do something with it. Congress can't read our minds on what we think should be done and how we think things can be fixed. They are given a mailbox and an address for a reason. Tell the big guys your ideas, they won't bite you.

I think most of them have expressed their opinions with pointing out what's wrong. Just in case you didn't catch the majority opinion, here it is (from what I've read at least): America is a superpower because of its spending. We have the best trained and equipped soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen in the world. If we cut military spending by taking the "fancy" equipment away, our enemies will see we are letting our guard down and will attack. I would hate to see more civilian blood shed because we cut back to save a few bucks.

A lot of countries could be lions dressed as sheep. Which ones? Who knows, I, for one, don't want to find out.

Another thing, warmachine, how do you propose that we get ride of said "fancy" equipment? Tear them apart? That'll create a lot of waste, even if most can be recycled. Where will be put the waste? I think I know your answer to that one, NIMBY.

 

[bulldogg]

Thanks warmachine, you have made it easier for me to dismiss your rantings. You really do not have an understanding of the missions and uses of our military arsenal. If you raise an issue such as this on a forum populated with members such as this you should make sure you have all your arguments squared away. Its kinda like kickin a hornets nest... no sympathy should be expected but it should be a learning experience nonetheless.

 

[WarMachine]

When i was here last time before memebers like you joined i could actually get a decent conversation going without people's hubris getting in the way. All you've told me is that i'm wrong and for some reason you're right. Please, i implore you, what's your justification for having cold war era weapons being used against third war countries? Or any other actual response to the topic.