Should Israel Be A Nation

Both religions obviously believe Abraham was the Patriarch of all tribes descending from his heirs. Since Abraham was the first to proclaim that there was only one God, then I don't see how they can get around the fact that they are worshipping the same one God of Abraham, regardless of which Prophet brought God's words to them, they had to be inspired by the same God. I'm not sure that God would approve of mass murder and suicide.
 
Missileer said:
Both religions obviously believe Abraham was the Patriarch of all tribes descending from his heirs. Since Abraham was the first to proclaim that there was only one God, then I don't see how they can get around the fact that they are worshipping the same one God of Abraham, regardless of which Prophet brought God's words to them, they had to be inspired by the same God. I'm not sure that God would approve of mass murder and suicide.
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What he said!

Seriously, Muslims are supposed to believe that "Jews and Christians are your Brothers" (not sure if this is from the Koran or somewhere else).

God, definitely NOT approve approve!
(The suicide thing is just a Catholic thing, or does it hold true for all Christians? What about Islam/Judaism?)
 
fingolfin361 said:
(The suicide thing is just a Catholic thing, or does it hold true for all Christians? What about Islam/Judaism?)
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"The suicide thing is just a Catholic thing"? Pardon me but what on earth does that mean? Missileer was referring to the suicide bombers of the Muslim faith. How did you come up with that comment? It must have lost something in the translation.
 
What Came First: Jewish or Egyptian Monotheism?

The first human records of monotheism reveal that the Jews might not have been the first humans to have a state monotheistic religion. Since we cannot know what many groups of ancient peoples believed, having no records other than a few stories or nothing, we can only judge the WRITTEN record...and I don't mean a Bible written centuries after the fact. I will therefore discount the Biblical fables of Abraham and others. In any case, "ome modern historians dispute the historical accuracy of the patriarchal narratives in the Bible, and hold these events to be largely, or perhaps entirely, mythical". Israel proper was not founded until after Moses (if he existed), so it is fair to place the beginnings of Judaism around 1300 BC and state Judaism one hundred years later.

It just so happens that the Pharaoh Akhenaten believed that Aten (the sun god) was a singular deity and he started a monotheistic revolution in Egypt. He ruled between 1353 BC-1336 BC. While the revolution failed and his son Tutankhaten (later Tutankhamen or just King Tut) wiped out his cult, the failed experiment took place prior to the Hebrew settlement of Caanan. Akhenaten's failed revolution did take place during the Jewish captivity (if there was one), Joseph (if he existed) having moved to Egypt with a few families around 1400 BC...was there a connection?

That places Akhenaten prior to Judaism. [Islam is way off] I have nevertheless always wondered why the Romans referred to Eyptian polytheism and Jewish monotheism as temple cults.

[Other than Akhenaten, there is also Zoroastrianism]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten
 
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Is Israel a theocracy? I know on paper it isn't but is the reality such due to her enemies and the real origins of the country that she is in fact a jewish theocracy?
 
DTop said:
"The suicide thing is just a Catholic thing"? Pardon me but what on earth does that mean? Missileer was referring to the suicide bombers of the Muslim faith. How did you come up with that comment? It must have lost something in the translation.
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Yeah, it probably did. Wrote down my train of thought, without making the link.

So what I meant to ask was that Suicide is considered a sin right? I meant, is that only a Catholic belief, or is it true for all Christian denominitions? And what about for the Jews?

Ollie Garchy said:
[Other than Akhenaten, there is also Zoroastrianism]
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yeah, i think the sun cult, worshipping a red disk, was very very very unpopular, and many people secrertly worshipped the old deities.

Zoroastrianism, while accepting the supremecy of Ahura Mazda, does have numerous lesser deities and angelic figures, who are to some extent worshipped. I dont think you can call it monotheistic in the way that the Abrahamic religions are considered monotheistic.
 
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fingolfin361 said:
Ok, as far as i gather, the Arab stand on the 'Israel problem' is, atleast in its purest form, more social than religious... it was a big deal that their lands were being given to outsiders.
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Ahh, but the land didn't belong to the Arabs, it belonged to the British who then split it roughly in half but the Palestinians and Arabs refused to accept any agreement that allowed Israel to come into existance.
 
fingolfin361 said:
Yeah, it probably did. Wrote down my train of thought, without making the link.

So what I meant to ask was that Suicide is considered a sin right? I meant, is that only a Catholic belief, or is it true for all Christian denominitions? And what about for the Jews?
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I think you will find that suicide is not acceptable in the Muslim Qu'ran either. I suspect all religions have a law against it but I haven't really researched it. Now, if someone gives his life to save others, I don't know how that is interpreted even though it is a noble gesture.
 
Anybody who takes the trouble to read the first testament of the Bible, will see that the children of Israel not only took the area we know as Palastine with force, but were also given 10 commandments to obey. These were not accepted by all, and God's people not only devided, but took on other religions for which they were punished. 3000 years of true Jewish religion is therefore a myth.
 
Well, I am Lutheran and I have always been told that suicide is a sin, same with divorce, but it seems like these days people of every religion pick and choose their beliefs depending on whether it is convenient or not.
 
Which Muslim Quran are you talking about when you say that suicide is a sin? The one that mainstream Muslims subscribe to (or) the one that the extremists use to justify the killing of the unfaithful.

The extremists believe that if they die killing the unfaithful, they will go to some mystical heaven and be waited on by virgins.

That is how wacko the extremists have become ... no-one who does NOT believe as they do is safe. You would think that the rest of the world would rise up and extinguish this radical religion, if for no other reason than self protection.

The sad fact is that there are too many countries that don't see the danger this religion poses for them and the rest of the world.

I foresee a religious war that will spread slowly until the entire world is involved. I hate to say it ... but ... the Bible (Revelations), might NOT be so far off the mark - 'the destroyer will come out of the East' (paraphrased).
 
This is a site on which a Muslim scholar writes about the ties that bind Judaism and Islam together. I have read it and find it fascinating.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Muslimscholar.html

A Muslim Scholar Speaks on Islam & Jerusalem
by Shaykh Professor Abdul Hadi Palazzi

Here are some quotes:
"The idea of Islam as a factor that prevents Arabs from recognizing any sovereign right of Jews over the Land of Israel or Jerusalem is quite recent and can by no means be found in Islamic classical sources. Both Qur'an and Torah indicate quite clearly that the link between the Jews and the Land of Israel does not depend on any kind of colonization project but directly on the will of God Almighty. In particular, both Jewish and Islamic Scriptures state specifically that God through His chosen servant Moses decided to free the offspring of Jacob from slavery in Egypt and to make them the inheritors of the Promised Land."



"The Qur'an cites the exact words with which Moses ordered the Israelites to conquer the Land:
"And (remember) when Moses said to his people: ‘O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the people. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin'". (Qur'an, Sura 5:22-23, "The Table")

"The Holy Qur'an also quite openly refers to the reinstatement of the Children of Israel in the Land before the Last Judgment, where it says "And thereafter We said to the Children of Israel: ‘Dwell securely in the Promised Land.' And when the last warning will come to pass, We will gather you together in a mingled crowd." (Qur'an, Sura 17:104, "The Night Journey")

"Jewish intellectuals, for their part, must be ready to understand that a new attitude is emerging among some Islamic thinkers. Many of us are now ready to admit that hostility for Israel has been a great mistake, perhaps the worst mistake Muslims have made in the last 50 years."

"The times are ready for Jews and Muslims to recognize each other once again as a branch of the tree of monotheism, as brothers descended from the same father - Abraham, the forerunner of faith in the Living God. The more we discover our common roots, the more we can hope for a common future of peace and prosperity."


Also, about suicide, Chief:


[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]Hadith - Bukhari 2:445, Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak[/FONT] [FONT=Helvetica, Arial]The Prophet
saws.gif
said, "Whoever intentionally swears falsely by a religion other than Islam, then he is what he has said, (e.g. if he says, 'If such thing is not true then I am a Jew,' he is really a Jew). And whoever commits suicide with piece of iron will be punished with the same piece of iron in the Hell Fire." Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, "A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him."[/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]Action Items for the [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial]uttaqun:[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Helvetica, Arial]Recognize that a person who commits suicide is forbidden paradise.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Helvetica, Arial]Be sure to talk to your local Imam if you feel suicidal. The imam should not be judgemental in his response. The imam, should, however, show or quote to you the above hadith or similar rulings, at least so you know the consequences on your soul. Seek out the Islamic counsel that is there to guide and encourage you on the right path, not the easy path.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Helvetica, Arial]Say, "estapherAllah wa atubu alaihi" (May Allah have mercy on me and accept my repentance) 100 times a day.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Helvetica, Arial]When fearful, say "La ilaha ill Allah" (there is no deity but Allah).[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Helvetica, Arial]If someone expresses suicidal thoughts to you, it is important that you warn him or her of the consequences.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Helvetica, Arial]Do not kill yourself. Seek Allah's Mercy, for surely Allah, subhana watala, is All Merciful. Humbly seek the help of your Lord.[/FONT]
Remember... Allah, subhana watala, sees everything we do! ​




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This got a little long so I will do the double post thing.

http://islam.about.com/cs/currentevents/a/suicide_bomb.htm

Suicide Bombers

Why do they do it, and what does Islam say about their actions?

In Islam, several things are clear:
  • Suicide is forbidden. "O ye who believe!... [do not] kill yourselves, for truly Allah has been to you Most Merciful. If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast him into the Fire..." (Qur'an 4:29-30).
  • The taking of life is allowed only by way of justice (i.e. the death penalty for murder), but even then, forgiveness is better. "Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause..." (17:33).
  • In pre-Islamic Arabia, retaliation and mass murder was commonplace. If someone was killed, the victim's tribe would retaliate against the murderer's entire tribe. This practice was directly forbidden in the Qur'an (2:178-179). Following this statement of law, the Qur'an says, "After this, whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave chastisement" (2:178). No matter what wrong we perceive as being done against us, we may not lash out against an entire population of people.
  • The Qur'an admonishes those who oppress others and transgress beyond the bounds of what is right and just. "The blame is only against those who oppress men with wrongdoing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice. For such there will be a chastisement grievous (in the Hereafter)" (42:42).
  • Harming innocent bystanders, even in times of war, was forbidden by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). This includes women, children, noncombatant bystanders, and even trees and crops. Nothing is to be harmed unless the person or thing is actively engaged in an assault against Muslims.
The predominant theme in the Qur'an is forgiveness and peace. Allah (God) is Merciful and Forgiving, and seeks that in His followers. Indeed, most people who spend time on a personal level with ordinary Muslims have found them to be peaceful, honest, hard-working, civic-minded people.
Please visit the links above to read what Muslim scholars and Islamic governmental leaders have recently declared about this subject.
"O ye who believe! Remain steadfast for Allah, bearing witness to justice. Do not allow your hatred for others make you swerve to wrongdoing and turn you away from justice. Be just; that is closer to true piety."
- Qur'an, Surah al-Maidah (5:8)
 
fingolfin361 said:
Yeah, it probably did. Wrote down my train of thought, without making the link.

So what I meant to ask was that Suicide is considered a sin right? I meant, is that only a Catholic belief, or is it true for all Christian denominitions? And what about for the Jews?
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The Catholic Church no longer considers suicide a sin. They have formally recognised the fact that suicide is usually the result of severe depression and they no longer condemn someone to hell for ending their own life.

My grandfather chose to end his own life and he was buried by the priest with full rites. Like the Army, the church is slow to change but it does change.
 
Actually bulldogg, that's not completely true. At least to my understanding, suicide is not considered a sin under certain conditions.
In order for a sin to be considered a mortal sin (one that truly and completely separates one from God), it must be committed of one's own free will. The thing about most suicides is that they are signs of emotional or psychological problems. These conditions are generally considered to diminish a person's freedom of choice. If you consider how many suicidal notes are constructed, they often include a phrase indicating that the person had "no other choice". If a person has no choice, they are not acting with a free will and thus not committing a sin that separates them "truly and completely" from God. While it's certainly possible for a person to commit suicide of their own free will, in most cases there is emotional duress or a mental illness involved and the sin can be forgiven because it was not a total and complete separation from God.
As I said this is how I understand it. Maybe this is something better addressed by someone like Padre.
Anyway, back to the issue of Israel.​
 
:stupid:

and Bulldog, I have no doubt your pop is in peace and with God, with maybe just a quick stop in Purgatory to say hello to all the clergy in there.
 
bulldogg
All of the words and words and words of your posts STILL DOESN'T explain how the extremist wackos can use the Qur'an to justify suicide bombing when the Qur'an condems suicide.
 
Damien435 said:
Ahh, but the land didn't belong to the Arabs, it belonged to the British who then split it roughly in half but the Palestinians and Arabs refused to accept any agreement that allowed Israel to come into existance.
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Well, if you think Colonialism (which the mandates were just a glorified form of) is justifiable, and that the land belongs to the external power and not the people, then i can't argue that point with you.

That said, maybe it makes it worse for the Arabs. One thing is to lose what you believe is yours to an outsider. I think it would be worse if that it was given to that outsider, by another outsider, and then the new 'owners' were able to keep control of it, largely due to the backing of yet another outsider.....
 
fingolfin361 said:
One thing is to lose what you believe is yours to an outsider. I think it would be worse if that it was given to that outsider, by another outsider, and then the new 'owners' were able to keep control of it, largely due to the backing of yet another outsider.....
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Welcome to the world of the Jews.
 
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