Should innocent people belong on a DNA database?
perseus
Active member
Possibly, but to turn the question around, who doesn't give DNA. If I offer a specimen to a hospital for research or other medical reasons this cannot be catalogued on police files at present.
I think what I am suggesting is something wider. At present, everyone is classed as innocent or guilty, this is unrealistic, we don't really know with absolute certainty. It has been proposed that in a addition to guilty or innocent there is another verdict which should be available to a jury, unproven. However, what would happen to the suspect in this case, he/she is let go. However an alternative might be to take a sample of DNA to focus their mind (as Rob says) on attempting another crime if they were guilty.
GG9909
Active member
Ahh.. when the law brings DNA into a court case. No. A person with no criminal record shouldn't have his DNA presented as evidence. If he or she has already been previously charged ( requiring their DNA from some past serious offence) and only if their DNA was found at the scene of the crime, then I would agree, use it. 
@Chukpike, yes, insurance companies could deny coverage but the medical field already has gone ahead with their services. It will be a social issue that will need to discussed and remedied. I don't think DNA should be made available to the Public domain though. That would be wrong and akin to breach of confidentiality of the medical and law fields.
@Chukpike, yes, insurance companies could deny coverage but the medical field already has gone ahead with their services. It will be a social issue that will need to discussed and remedied. I don't think DNA should be made available to the Public domain though. That would be wrong and akin to breach of confidentiality of the medical and law fields.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
This is absolutely true.
And those insurance companies will do WHATEVER it takes to get those DNA records and information becuase it will save them billions of dollars a year by having them.
@GG9909: I have zero faith in any of those organizations doing anything that is "right." Only what is profitable.
Chukpike
Banned
Actually pretty much my point.
I agree crime has been around since the begining. Laws based on peoples sense of right or wrong (morals) came about to allow people to live in a group. I don't think everyone is taught good moral values and I don't think that all the people who have been taught follow them.
So Rob's statement is very naive:
PRECISELY Wallabies. I think it's perfectly acceptable to have them in the database for prevention. If the person knows their fingerprints will already have a name/face/address attached to them, they might think twice about committing a criminal act. qoute Rob Henderson.
The idea that criminals sit around worrying about who has their DNA or finger prints is pretty silly.
Could DNA samples be used to aid in criminal investigations, of course. Helping to clear the innocent or prosecute the guilty.
Agreed. And society is a trade off of benefits for the whole balanced by the rights of the individual. In this case how much individual privacy are people willing to give up?
The question of this thread is "Should innocent people belong on a DNA database".
I just don't see the need to collect everyone's DNA for this database.
Chukpike
Banned
I think you watch to much television. In the US you would need to get DNA samples from 300 million people on to the Data base.
First where does the money come from to investigate these cold cases.
Second DNA evidence is not present in every "cold case".
Currently, the police force in a large city has very little time money or personel to work on these old case files. Now add all the costs associated with developing a universally shared data base. This may be some what available from the Federal government in the US, but which local police departments have the money or man power to put it to use.
England may have a better universally shared system, but in the US there are layers of government police forces from Federal, State, County, and City all the way down to voluteers in some small communties.
How secure would the data base be? The U S Veterans Affairs Department compromised 25 million veterans Social Security numbers just a few years ago.
So for me the answer to your question, "Why not" is, I don't think the government can be trusted to safeguard the information.
I meant they would not be cold cases if a DNA/fingerprint data base was there. Honestly the US is an embarrassment when it comes to criminality among its citizens. Put in the money now and save money later.
Oh noes...fingerprint is out on the interwebz, WHAT DO I DO?!?!?!?!?!?
Oh noes...fingerprint is out on the interwebz, WHAT DO I DO?!?!?!?!?!?
Chukpike
Banned
Actually, we in the U S are kind of proud of are criminals and make movies about them, "Bonnie & Clyde", "Dillinger", "Thomas Crown Affair", "Billy the Kid" to name a few. Not familiar with any movie marketable Australian criminals.:wink:
So, how about a breakdown on the super job Australia is doing with there DNA data base. Give us in the U S the benefit of all the ways Australia is using their universal DNA data base to eliminate crime in Australia . Let us know how you get the government to allocate additional monies for police forces. Tell us how you get your citizens to gladly increase the taxes they pay to fund your DNA data base.
Oh! You mean you haven't gotten there yet? Well, come back when you have it all worked out and enlighten us.:smile:
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Guys I think the real issue is police effectiveness and privacy.
There is no doubt that a DNA database etc., would in fact save a lot of money in the long run and make it much harder for criminals to do their work.
Being proud of your criminals isn't really great... it's sort of Somali... how a pirate who managed to bring in dough becomes a hero except even more retarded since he'd have to steal from other Somalis.
But this information would get to the private sector where it'll be there for all to abuse. Having junk mail with my name on it is annoying and getting phone calls from marketers who know my name is downright infuriating. One can only guess what sort of extortion they'd think of with my DNA info.
There is no doubt that a DNA database etc., would in fact save a lot of money in the long run and make it much harder for criminals to do their work.
Being proud of your criminals isn't really great... it's sort of Somali... how a pirate who managed to bring in dough becomes a hero except even more retarded since he'd have to steal from other Somalis.
But this information would get to the private sector where it'll be there for all to abuse. Having junk mail with my name on it is annoying and getting phone calls from marketers who know my name is downright infuriating. One can only guess what sort of extortion they'd think of with my DNA info.
GG9909
Active member
Add to that the knowledge of cloning technology and know-how :-x anyways...no, innocent people should not have their DNA forced but ..with blood donors and hospital blood samples being taken...it can be done without our knowledge but people can sue the hey out of them if tampering with DNA has been going on, right
True...insurance companies would come up with a reason to have access to DNA but I don't think use of a pre-diagnosis should even be relevant nor discrimination against a pre-diagnosis of disease if found, should even be practiced. Hospitals n Dr's would lose out on accessing insurance monies too so don't think they would agree to that sort of practice either.
True...insurance companies would come up with a reason to have access to DNA but I don't think use of a pre-diagnosis should even be relevant nor discrimination against a pre-diagnosis of disease if found, should even be practiced. Hospitals n Dr's would lose out on accessing insurance monies too so don't think they would agree to that sort of practice either.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Soon it may go even beyond just the insurance.
You know how the Myers Briggs test determines your personality type and it kind of provides a guideline as to what jobs you are suited for and some which are complete incompatabilities? For example, if you are an INSP, you're a total red flag when it comes to espionage field agent.
If DNA information became prevalent, they might start looking into which DNA types tend to do well at what rank and what job and we may see companies using this information to deal with their human resources operations.
I don't know why the Myers Briggs test hasn't been used in that way but you could see the sort of potential right there.
You know how the Myers Briggs test determines your personality type and it kind of provides a guideline as to what jobs you are suited for and some which are complete incompatabilities? For example, if you are an INSP, you're a total red flag when it comes to espionage field agent.
If DNA information became prevalent, they might start looking into which DNA types tend to do well at what rank and what job and we may see companies using this information to deal with their human resources operations.
I don't know why the Myers Briggs test hasn't been used in that way but you could see the sort of potential right there.
perseus
Active member
In the UK there is a fictional police series called 'Waking the Dead'. This is about a cold case squad who re-examines old unsolved crimes when new evidence or technologies become available. Needless to say the team have a whizz kid on the forensic side who is equipped with the latest technology. They have a technical advisor for the series so all the science reflects reality despite being a fictional series.
In the latest programme they were faced without a DNA match for a rape sample. However after a great argument about civil rights, they widened the DNA search on the database to find someone who could be a close relative of the rapist. After a bit of unlawful breaking in to houses without warrants, Bingo they were able to deduce were the rapist lived!
It's a great series especially if you like gory scenes cutting up bodies etc Yuk!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00mtv1s/Waking_the_Dead_Series_8_End_of_the_Night_Part_2/
In the latest programme they were faced without a DNA match for a rape sample. However after a great argument about civil rights, they widened the DNA search on the database to find someone who could be a close relative of the rapist. After a bit of unlawful breaking in to houses without warrants, Bingo they were able to deduce were the rapist lived!
It's a great series especially if you like gory scenes cutting up bodies etc Yuk!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00mtv1s/Waking_the_Dead_Series_8_End_of_the_Night_Part_2/
John Lydon
Active member
That might work in TV land but the rapist would walk in reality when the courts discovered that illegal search was commited, illegal database searches, etc.
I am inclined to agree with someone who stated earlier that if your innocent what have you got to hide. But then I think about how crummy of a job our Government has done with SS numbers. 50 years ago, social security numbers meant nothing to anyone. Then this company figured out how to use it, that company figured another way, and pretty soon your social security number was worth your life. If DNA collection is used by the police, how long will it be before DNA becomes a protected item like your SS#?
perseus
Active member
John. In this case other peoples DNA records can potentially be used to see if they have a high probability of being related to a criminal they are searching for. This opens up a new can of worms. Of course the police needn't actually admit to this, they could simply use it as a lead to focus their search down to find a piece of legitimate evidence.
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pixiedustboo
Redfidelboo
+1, this is one of the only reasons I don' support everyone having it.
It's too bad that we can't trust it not to be used against us because in the long run if it were just used for good I think it could do a lot.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
The thing about the DNA is that it is the ultimate in personal information.
If there comes a time when others having access to it is inevitable, we the owners should have a very comprehensive understanding of what is in our own personal DNA and what it means to us.
If there comes a time when others having access to it is inevitable, we the owners should have a very comprehensive understanding of what is in our own personal DNA and what it means to us.
03USMC
Active member
You should already be in a data base if your in the military. But that Data base can only be accessed for remains ID.
If and when DNA is collected by the Police it is entered into Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) maintained by the FBI. CODIS is a restricted access data base and requires probable cause and authorization to access. Basically it's an input and matching system.
If you input a DNA sample into CODIS and it hits you'll receive a probabilty report. If this DNA was collected on scene and then inputted into a system like CODIS, returned with a hit in the right range of probabilty thats Probable Cause and enough to enter an arrest warrant.