Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
Part 1
Man, you miss so many points. It would take me months to explain all those to you. Let me just re-post some of my previous posts on the topic, though.
People forget that Bush's motivations for waging war on Iraq have always been THREE, and three reasons for wanting a military intervention had been clearly stated for months before 3/03.
1. Iraq has WMD
2.Iraq has links with terrorism- not just Al Qaeda, but with terrorism (which was true, Hamas, for instance, but Al Qaeda too if you read the 9/11 Commission Report)
3.Democracy hence peace. Bush agrees with the neocons that in order for peace to exist democracy has to be exported. He never concealed this aspect, people forget that. So many times did he present this motivation publicly before the outbreak of hostilities. So now it's not a post war strategy. It'always been that.
N.1 Don't you believe that the burden of the proof was on Saddam? Yes or no.
On the international scene other countries, like Ukraine, South Africa, Kazakhstan, and now Lybia, have agreed to accept UN and even other countries' inspectors. They honestly showed everything they had, they opened their bunkers, their facilities.
Saddam Hussein led the whole world into thinking that he had those weapons. He repeatedly said that. Even his closest advisors and top military aides thought they had those weapons. They were shocked at the eve of the war when they learned Saddam had been faking it for years.
Now you know he had had those weapons, he had used them and killed hundred of thousands, he kept saying he had them. The UN, Russia, Britain and France thought he had them too.
If he did not have them, why didn't it open the doors and proved it? Like others had done. The burden of the proof was on him.
He was just playing a game he got burned playing.
Next time he won't pretend to have a matchbox in his pocket if he doesn't I tell you.
N.2 Saddam had close ties with Hamas, and that is proved. About Al Qaeda-Saddam connections, my friend, we have tons of evidence. You just have to look.
Saddam Hussein had close ties with Hamas (he paid 25,000 $ to the family of each suicide bomber), he gave hospitality to Abu Nidal and Abul Abbas. The first had staged a terrorist attack on Rome airport causing dozens of victims, the second was involved in the Achille Lauro's cruise ship hijacking and the murder of handicapped American citizen Leon Clinghoffer in the cruelest way.
I didn't say Saddam had to do with 9/11, I say he had ties with Al Qaeda, and going to prove it.
(To be continued on next post)
Dean said:Sorry, I was really tired last night, so I could not type the message that I wanted to say, so here it is now.
The US went to war in Iraq on two premises: the first was that Saddam Hussein's Iraq was a threat to US national security, and the second was that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that they could deploy at any time. As the most serious of these two charges was the one dealing with WMDs, it is the one I will discuss first.
The US had been claiming for a very long time that Iraq had WMDs and that they were continuing their nuclear development program. Both of these would have been in violation of UN resolutions, so the US gave itself the moral right to enforce the resolutions in question. At the time, the US beat the war drums loud enough for the world to hear in the hopes that other countries would join in, but unfortunately (for them) none did. A major group of countries, unofficially led by France, opposed the war, and France in particular was very vocal in this opposition. Now, at the time I found that very strange. At first I thought that France was waffling, simply trying to get out of a war, but then I remembered something else. The French, contrary to popular belief, have never been afraid of getting their hands wet, and in fact they have been very active militarily in Africa for a very long time. Were they afraid of going to war with Iraq? No, they were not, and they are one of the very few countries that is able to effectively project force beyond their borders. So why did the French actively oppose the war? Some said that they did not want to lose lucrative contracts with Iraq. This is pure horsehockey! The amount of business that France did with Iraq may have been far greater than that of the US, but it was hardly a reason to support Saddam Hussein. So what else?
I started reading around, and I noticed a pattern emerging. The French would make a statement, the US would try to counter it, and so on. Usually, when this happens some countries would believe one, and others believe the other, but this was not happening. In fact, every time France made a statement, it seemed that the other countries, including Canada, threw their support more towards the French position.
I am lucky in that I speak both English and French fluently, and while reading French press releases, an idea began to form in my head. The French knew something the US did not, but they could not share that information, or they had shared the info and the US simply ignored it or dismissed it out of hand. Now here I have to open a parenthesis. Many people believe that the CIA is the greatest intelligence gathering agency in the world. In and of itself, this is not true. IF you combine the CIA, the DIA, the NSA, the FBI and others, then it is the greatest, but there are others, and some of those others have more influence in certain parts of the world than the CIA enjoys. One of the agencies that does have more influence in the Arab world is the French equivalent of the CIA, the DGSE. I know that the DGSE was active in that part of the world at the time, everyone was. What had the DGSE tumbled to?
The answer was simple. The DGSE and others, probably including the Canadian CSIS, had figured out that the Iraqis did not have any WMDs and were thus honour bound to support the UN position. This is particularly true of Canada. After all, we invented peacekeeping (our Prime Minister of the time won th eNobel Peace Prize for it) and we have participated in more peacekeeping missions than anyone else, it would have been very difficult for the Canadian government to suddenly set that aside and go to war on the basis of information that they knew to be false. Canada did go to Afghanistan, in fact it is now the Canadian contingent that is currently in charge of Kandahar, which is the hottest sector of Aghanistan. We also took part in Desert Shield and Desert Storm so it was not a lack of guts that kept us out. The Canadian government simply knew better.
I kept all this to myself for a long time, then suddenly I got the confirmation I had been seeking. When it became apparent that the US was never going to find WMDs in Iraq, they launched and inquiry to find out why the CIA had goofed so badly. The answer was astounding. The CIA claimed that they had never sent information to the effect that Iraq held any WMDs after the First Gulf War. They continued, stating that all the info that they had sent to the White House had been mis-interpreted to give the impression that Iraq had WMDs and thus give the White House the excuse they needed to go to war.
After having read all this, I feel that the war in Iraq was a mistake. It did have the effect of ridding the world of a dictator, but so what? The US has supported many dictators before, and in fact is still supporting some now, so saying that it made the world safer for democracy is (sorry to say) hypocritical. I do believe that the war in Afghanistan was justified, and that Al Qaida should be exterminated, but Iraq did not even have any ties with Al Qaida.
Given that the war was started on three false pretenses, (actually, more like 2 and a half) I do not feel that Canada should sent even one man to Iraq. I usually support American positions, but in this case, the US made a huge mistake that could even be classed by many as a crime against humanity. I do not think we (Canadians) should be participating in this.
Dean.
Man, you miss so many points. It would take me months to explain all those to you. Let me just re-post some of my previous posts on the topic, though.
People forget that Bush's motivations for waging war on Iraq have always been THREE, and three reasons for wanting a military intervention had been clearly stated for months before 3/03.
1. Iraq has WMD
2.Iraq has links with terrorism- not just Al Qaeda, but with terrorism (which was true, Hamas, for instance, but Al Qaeda too if you read the 9/11 Commission Report)
3.Democracy hence peace. Bush agrees with the neocons that in order for peace to exist democracy has to be exported. He never concealed this aspect, people forget that. So many times did he present this motivation publicly before the outbreak of hostilities. So now it's not a post war strategy. It'always been that.
N.1 Don't you believe that the burden of the proof was on Saddam? Yes or no.
On the international scene other countries, like Ukraine, South Africa, Kazakhstan, and now Lybia, have agreed to accept UN and even other countries' inspectors. They honestly showed everything they had, they opened their bunkers, their facilities.
Saddam Hussein led the whole world into thinking that he had those weapons. He repeatedly said that. Even his closest advisors and top military aides thought they had those weapons. They were shocked at the eve of the war when they learned Saddam had been faking it for years.
Now you know he had had those weapons, he had used them and killed hundred of thousands, he kept saying he had them. The UN, Russia, Britain and France thought he had them too.
If he did not have them, why didn't it open the doors and proved it? Like others had done. The burden of the proof was on him.
He was just playing a game he got burned playing.
Next time he won't pretend to have a matchbox in his pocket if he doesn't I tell you.
N.2 Saddam had close ties with Hamas, and that is proved. About Al Qaeda-Saddam connections, my friend, we have tons of evidence. You just have to look.
Saddam Hussein had close ties with Hamas (he paid 25,000 $ to the family of each suicide bomber), he gave hospitality to Abu Nidal and Abul Abbas. The first had staged a terrorist attack on Rome airport causing dozens of victims, the second was involved in the Achille Lauro's cruise ship hijacking and the murder of handicapped American citizen Leon Clinghoffer in the cruelest way.
I didn't say Saddam had to do with 9/11, I say he had ties with Al Qaeda, and going to prove it.
(To be continued on next post)
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