Originally Posted by BritinAfrica

Washington DC was once the murder capital of the US, since a handgun ban has been revoked, concealed carry has reduced crime.

A school shooting near Chicago was stopped by an armed officer at the school, the shooter was wounded and arrested.

In Israel trained teachers have carried guns in school for years, foiling attacks on a number of occasions.

JERUSALEM – Americans intent on ensuring a school massacre like the one in Newtown, Conn., never happens again could learn a lot from Israel, where the long menu of precautions includes armed teachers.

The Jewish state, which has long faced threats of terrorist strikes in crowded locations including schools, takes an all-of-the-above approach to safety in the classroom. Fences, metal detectors and armed private guards are part of a strategy overseen by the country’s national police. And the idea of armed teachers in the classroom, which stirred much controversy in the wake of the U.S. attack, has long been in practice in Israel, though a minority of them carry weapons today.

Oren Shemtov, CEO of Israel’s Academy of Security and Investigation, noted that attacks typically happen in a matter of minutes, and said gun-toting teachers could, at the very least, buy time for kids to escape while police race to the scene.

“Two (armed) teachers would have kept (the Newtown shooter) occupied for 45 seconds each,” said Shemtov, who is one of 16 people in Israel authorized to train those who instruct school guards.

Shemtov, a veteran of Israel’s security services who has been teaching security methods for 22 years, praised the Newtown teachers who gave their lives trying to protect children, but lamented the fact that they weren’t able to shoot back when gunman Adam Lanza opened fire, killing 20 children and six adults before shooting himself in the head as police converged on Sand Hook Elementary School.

“We need to give them the tools to be heroes,” Shemtov said. “No one wants to be a hero. They did what they had to do.”

Israel is completely different to the US.

Gun ownership in fact far lower in Israel than in the United States. In the United States there are roughly 310 million firearms in the hands of civilians, nearly one for every adult and child. In Israel — which has a population of about 8.5 million, not conting about 5 million Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza — about 135,000 citizens are currently licensed to own guns.

Israel has strict gun control. Those citizens who are licensed to own a personal weapon have generally undergone some military training. Guns are not seen as a hobby, but as a tool for self-defense, and if necessary, to help protect others from terrorism.

Originally Posted by Capt Frogman

Israel is completely different to the US.

Gun ownership in fact far lower in Israel than in the United States. In the United States there are roughly 310 million firearms in the hands of civilians, nearly one for every adult and child. In Israel — which has a population of about 8.5 million, not conting about 5 million Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza — about 135,000 citizens are currently licensed to own guns.

Israel has strict gun control. Those citizens who are licensed to own a personal weapon have generally undergone some military training. Guns are not seen as a hobby, but as a tool for self-defense, and if necessary, to help protect others from terrorism.

The point I was making, in Israel teachers are armed which has prevented terrorist attacks on a number of occasions. a friend of mine in Israel has never done any military training, she owns a 7.65, not my choice of calibre but she has some sort of self defence. Her husband is a farmer carries a M16 (or possibly an AR 15).

Originally Posted by BritinAfrica

The point I was making, in Israel teachers are armed which has prevented terrorist attacks on a number of occasions. a friend of mine in Israel has never done any military training, she owns a 7.65, not my choice of calibre but she has some sort of self defence. Her husband is a farmer carries a M16 (or possibly an AR 15).

But they have very strict checks before they give them a firearm. There are also annual or biannual renewals I believe. Basically the complete opposite of the US.

Originally Posted by Capt Frogman

But they have very strict checks before they give them a firearm. There are also annual or biannual renewals I believe. Basically the complete opposite of the US.

Depends on the state in the US, they are not all as people think ""Walk into a gun shop and walk out with a machine gun"". Some states also have very strict regulations such as a cooling off period and police instruction before a carry permit is issued.

Gang members or people with criminal records are not allowed to own a firearm, but as usual criminals ignore the law and buy illegal firearms,

Originally Posted by BritinAfrica

Depends on the state in the US, they are not all as people think ""Walk into a gun shop and walk out with a machine gun"". Some states also have very strict regulations such as a cooling off period and police instruction before a carry permit is issued.

Gang members or people with criminal records are not allowed to own a firearm, but as usual criminals ignore the law and buy illegal firearms,

So why have the US mass shootings been carried out by kids with mental problems?

Originally Posted by Capt Frogman

So why have the US mass shootings been carried out by kids with mental problems?

There was a TV programme on this a few years ago, apparently from what I can remember the kids with mental health problems have drugs rammed down their throats rather then deal with the reasons behind the problems. Forcing drugs downs kids throats is a lot easier, I think it was a drug called XANAX.

Xanax (alprazolam) is a benzodiazepine (ben-zoe-dye-AZE-eh-peen). Alprazolam affects chemicals in the brain that may be unbalanced in people with anxiety.

Xanax is used to treat anxiety disorders, panic disorders, and anxiety caused by depression.

Xanax may also be used for purposes not listed in this medication guide.

As for getting hold of firearms that they shouldnt, there could be a number of reasons, buy a gun on the street or stealing from parents. Most states do not require firearms are locked away in a proper safe, then there is theft from pick up trucks with rifles hung in the rear window


One of Pfizer’s biggest selling meds, Xanax is usually prescribed for those who suffer from anxiety and depression, but it seems the drug causes the very thing it is supposed to treat – if you count losing your mind and shooting dozens of people a bit ‘anxious’.
The crazy “shooter” at the University of California, Santa Barbara, who shot six students in a rampage was likely addicted to benzodiazepines, a class of pharmaceuticals that can lead to extreme hysteria and outbursts of violence. Elliot Roger, the 22-year-old man blamed for a shooting spree in Isla Vista, California, was on Xanax.

But he certainly didn’t start this trend.

Aaron Ybarra, a 26-year-old who opened fire with a shotgun at Seattle Pacific University, killing one student and wounding two others had been prescribed the antidepressant Prozac and antipsychotic Risperda.

16-year-old Chris Plaskon stabbed Maren Sanchez, also 16, to death in a stairwell at Jonathan Law High School after she turned down his prom invitation, but he was taking drugs for ADHD.
James Holmes was hooked on a cocktail of Big Pharma drugs that have been found to be deadlier than cocaine and heroin combined (even at ‘safe’ levels). But the trend continues much farther.
Columbine shooters Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, as well as 15-year-old Kip Kinkel, were all on psychotropic drugs.
Even Ted Kaczinski the “Unabomber”, Michael McDermott, John Hinckley, Jr., Byran Uyesugi, Mark David Chapman and Charles Carl Roberts IV, the Amish school killer,were all on some form of SSRI psychotropic pharmaceutical drugs.

Originally Posted by BritinAfrica

Washington DC was once the murder capital of the US, since a handgun ban has been revoked, concealed carry has reduced crime.

A school shooting near Chicago was stopped by an armed officer at the school, the shooter was wounded and arrested.

In Israel trained teachers have carried guns in school for years, foiling attacks on a number of occasions.

JERUSALEM – Americans intent on ensuring a school massacre like the one in Newtown, Conn., never happens again could learn a lot from Israel, where the long menu of precautions includes armed teachers.

The Jewish state, which has long faced threats of terrorist strikes in crowded locations including schools, takes an all-of-the-above approach to safety in the classroom. Fences, metal detectors and armed private guards are part of a strategy overseen by the country’s national police. And the idea of armed teachers in the classroom, which stirred much controversy in the wake of the U.S. attack, has long been in practice in Israel, though a minority of them carry weapons today.

Oren Shemtov, CEO of Israel’s Academy of Security and Investigation, noted that attacks typically happen in a matter of minutes, and said gun-toting teachers could, at the very least, buy time for kids to escape while police race to the scene.

“Two (armed) teachers would have kept (the Newtown shooter) occupied for 45 seconds each,” said Shemtov, who is one of 16 people in Israel authorized to train those who instruct school guards.

Shemtov, a veteran of Israel’s security services who has been teaching security methods for 22 years, praised the Newtown teachers who gave their lives trying to protect children, but lamented the fact that they weren’t able to shoot back when gunman Adam Lanza opened fire, killing 20 children and six adults before shooting himself in the head as police converged on Sand Hook Elementary School.

“We need to give them the tools to be heroes,” Shemtov said. “No one wants to be a hero. They did what they had to do.”

The problem there is not only can you not quantify whether arming teachers works but there is plenty of evidence worldwide that says the exact opposite, for example, Australia and New Zealand both have a high rate of firearm ownership per capita yet I can't recall a single school shooting.
What is the difference?
We have functioning licensing systems and a culture that says guns on the street are a bad idea, if I step out the door with a firearm in my hand (not in a case and secured) I guarantee you I will get a visit from the police.

The result is no mass shootings since 1983 (I think) and less than 2 firearms related murders a year.



Glib anecdotes and misrepresented facts aside the simple reality is that more guns = more gun related deaths and why is that?
Because people kill people with guns if that is the most readily available tool they have to do it.

Originally Posted by BritinAfrica

There was a TV programme on this a few years ago, apparently from what I can remember the kids with mental health problems have drugs rammed down their throats rather then deal with the reasons behind the problems. Forcing drugs downs kids throats is a lot easier, I think it was a drug called XANAX.

Xanax (alprazolam) is a benzodiazepine (ben-zoe-dye-AZE-eh-peen). Alprazolam affects chemicals in the brain that may be unbalanced in people with anxiety.

Xanax is used to treat anxiety disorders, panic disorders, and anxiety caused by depression.

Xanax may also be used for purposes not listed in this medication guide.

As for getting hold of firearms that they shouldnt, there could be a number of reasons, buy a gun on the street or stealing from parents. Most states do not require firearms are locked away in a proper safe, then there is theft from pick up trucks with rifles hung in the rear window


One of Pfizer’s biggest selling meds, Xanax is usually prescribed for those who suffer from anxiety and depression, but it seems the drug causes the very thing it is supposed to treat – if you count losing your mind and shooting dozens of people a bit ‘anxious’.
The crazy “shooter” at the University of California, Santa Barbara, who shot six students in a rampage was likely addicted to benzodiazepines, a class of pharmaceuticals that can lead to extreme hysteria and outbursts of violence. Elliot Roger, the 22-year-old man blamed for a shooting spree in Isla Vista, California, was on Xanax.

But he certainly didn’t start this trend.

Aaron Ybarra, a 26-year-old who opened fire with a shotgun at Seattle Pacific University, killing one student and wounding two others had been prescribed the antidepressant Prozac and antipsychotic Risperda.

16-year-old Chris Plaskon stabbed Maren Sanchez, also 16, to death in a stairwell at Jonathan Law High School after she turned down his prom invitation, but he was taking drugs for ADHD.
James Holmes was hooked on a cocktail of Big Pharma drugs that have been found to be deadlier than cocaine and heroin combined (even at ‘safe’ levels). But the trend continues much farther.
Columbine shooters Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, as well as 15-year-old Kip Kinkel, were all on psychotropic drugs.
Even Ted Kaczinski the “Unabomber”, Michael McDermott, John Hinckley, Jr., Byran Uyesugi, Mark David Chapman and Charles Carl Roberts IV, the Amish school killer,were all on some form of SSRI psychotropic pharmaceutical drugs.

Kids all over the world will be on these drugs, yet the mass shootings always happen in the US.

Answer me this, why do civilians need assault rifles?

Originally Posted by Capt Frogman

Kids all over the world will be on these drugs, yet the mass shootings always happen in the US.

I'd suggest that the kids in UK are abusing illegal drugs as opposed to drugs prescribed by a doctor as is the case in the USA

There was a posting I saw, 18 year olds were storming the beaches on D Day, today 18 year olds want a safe place because someone was mean to them. Just about says it all. In the US its gun crime, there is also gun crime and knife crime in London.

Britain’s largest police force has warned there has been steep increases in gun and knife crime in the capital over the past year, adding that years of budget cuts may at least be partially responsible.

The Metropolitan police said gun and knife crime rose 42% and 24% respectively and that recorded crime was up across virtually every category, in figures released two days after Cressida Dick took over as commissioner.

In a briefing on Wednesday, Martin Hewitt, the force’s assistant commissioner, sought to pin some of the blame on cuts to funding. “It would be a naive answer to say that if you cut a significant amount out of an organisation, you don’t have any consequences,” he said.

Originally Posted by Capt Frogman

Answer me this, why do civilians need assault rifles?

Why not, in the US there are people who own fully automatic machines guns provided they apply for and obtain a special licence. One a year they gather and shoot up old cars and what have you, enormous fun for everyone. As far as I am aware none of them are involved in crime of any sort. Years ago I fired a GPMG, a BREN in 303 and 7.62, a 9mm Sterling and STEN on a number of occasions and loved every second of it, in fact I'd love to fire them again.

Firearm enthusiasts particularly in the UK are among the most law abiding in the kingdom. Michael Ryan of Hungerford fame was not an enthusiast, he was a screw ball who slipped through the cracks. He was able to keep his FAC despite warnings by fellow club members that he was unstable, the same applies to Thomas Hamilton the shooter in Dunblane in Scotland. If I remember correctly Ryan was kicked out of a gun club for unsafe handling, while Hamiltons club members also issued warning that he was unstable, but he kept his FAC

Completely agree with most of what you say and I am a huge believer that all firearms carry the same risks, a 0.22 can kill just as effectively as an AR-15.


I live in a country that has strong firearms regulation and maintain collectors, restricted and military-style firearms licenses and while it is an inconvenience for me I would never argue that those rules and regulations be relaxed because like it or not they work.


I remain convinced that while I support the pro-gun argument that "guns don't kill people" they are obviously the prefered tool of people looking to kill other people and guns, therefore, the only place to start rectifying the ludicrous number of mass shootings the US has.


In the long term better mental health, social requirements and education will also have a far greater effect on the number of shootings but in the short term, it is simply the ease at while firearms are available which is causing this.


No doubt that someone wants to argue that if they cant get guns they will use knives or some other weapon, absolutely true but I would much sooner someone throwing knives at me from a 32nd floor hotel window than opening fire with 5.56mm rounds, I am prepared to bet that the casualty rates would be much lower.